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First Makelele, now Di Maria
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First Makelele, now Di Maria
Makelele was the engine that allowed Madrid to attack with full confidence. He recovered almost every ball in his area, covered the back 4 and was far better technically than people realized... he got the ball forward very cleanly. Yet Madrid sold him after we won the CL and the team lost its balance. Why? There were more "galactico" players out there.
12 years later, we win the CL again. Di Maria had a similar impact: He covered for CR7's inadequacies, brought speed and athleticism to the midfield and had a killer final ball to feed that attack. What does Madrid do? Sell him because there are more "galactico" players out there.
In both cases, we never replaced the players either. We ignored what they brought to the team and naively figured that the rest of the team would magically compensate. Back then it was David Beckham and today it's James Rodriguez. That's not how it works. We needed a DM back in 2003 and we need a B2B in 2014.
Just sad tbh.
12 years later, we win the CL again. Di Maria had a similar impact: He covered for CR7's inadequacies, brought speed and athleticism to the midfield and had a killer final ball to feed that attack. What does Madrid do? Sell him because there are more "galactico" players out there.
In both cases, we never replaced the players either. We ignored what they brought to the team and naively figured that the rest of the team would magically compensate. Back then it was David Beckham and today it's James Rodriguez. That's not how it works. We needed a DM back in 2003 and we need a B2B in 2014.
Just sad tbh.
sportsczy- Ballon d'Or Contender
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Re: First Makelele, now Di Maria
i'll never get over makelele's sale
and then they got rid of cambiasso too.
remember who played as a DM ? a duo of guti and beckham
the signing of james = the signing of beckham back in 2003.
and then they got rid of cambiasso too.
remember who played as a DM ? a duo of guti and beckham
the signing of james = the signing of beckham back in 2003.
farfan- Fan Favorite
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Re: First Makelele, now Di Maria
Well the similarities which stand out to me are that back in the day, Zidane, Figo, Beckham playing with 2 other forwards (Raul, Morientes, Ronaldo) were held down by a single player in Makelele. He held the entire thing together but it was then decided that they didnt need him because of his apparently limited passing ability. They mistook him keeping it simple as him being limited (something which happens even today still).
So, they replaced him in the starting line up with players like Guti, suggesting his passing range being superior would actually make Madrid superior. Getting the ball to those others easier, faster.
Now, its very similar in that Modric, Cristiano, Bale, Benzema and co were being held down by the work rate of Di Maria. Alonso was important also because while defensively relatively weak, he actually played in front of the back 4 with decade long experience of the position.
Now, both been replaced by Kroos and James? Because they are "better" with the ball?
I think the difference is, at least the todays star's are in their prime...Zidane, Figo, Ronaldo were all post 30 as far as I recall, and even if not they were all not quite at the top of their games.
So, they replaced him in the starting line up with players like Guti, suggesting his passing range being superior would actually make Madrid superior. Getting the ball to those others easier, faster.
Now, its very similar in that Modric, Cristiano, Bale, Benzema and co were being held down by the work rate of Di Maria. Alonso was important also because while defensively relatively weak, he actually played in front of the back 4 with decade long experience of the position.
Now, both been replaced by Kroos and James? Because they are "better" with the ball?
I think the difference is, at least the todays star's are in their prime...Zidane, Figo, Ronaldo were all post 30 as far as I recall, and even if not they were all not quite at the top of their games.
The Franchise- Admin
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Re: First Makelele, now Di Maria
Hard to say
When we sold Makelele we did not have a single replacement to play DM and we thought we could get away by playing Guti and Beckham in the middle
Although we failed to address a suitable DiMaria replacement we still have Illarra in the team who is more than capable of playing CDM and of course Kroos/Modric to play CM, sure they might not create as much but lets not forget we were the only team who relied on our b2b player to provided creativity, all the other teams use tgeir forward line for that so be it they like it or not they wil have to start doing so if e are to improve again
When we sold Makelele we did not have a single replacement to play DM and we thought we could get away by playing Guti and Beckham in the middle
Although we failed to address a suitable DiMaria replacement we still have Illarra in the team who is more than capable of playing CDM and of course Kroos/Modric to play CM, sure they might not create as much but lets not forget we were the only team who relied on our b2b player to provided creativity, all the other teams use tgeir forward line for that so be it they like it or not they wil have to start doing so if e are to improve again
halamadrid2- Ballon d'Or Contender
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Re: First Makelele, now Di Maria
Only reason Barca and Madrid don't actually win more in the past few years (and Madrid since forever) is that our managements just won't do the obvious things... they just won't. It's as if we have some kind of deal with the football gods that we will make sure to frak things up on purpose. With Madrid, it drives me crazy tbh.
Like now.. we lost Di Maria and Alonso + Khedira got injured. Bought Kroos and James. We're left with Modric, Kroos and Illara... who are all relatively unathletic CMs. Kroos and Illlara rely on placement and passing ability while Modric relies on ball control. NONE of them are assist-maker. NONE of them play final balls.
Just to put it in perspective... Modric had a career 10 assists all comps last season. His high before that was 6.
Kroos' career high in assists was 10 too... a couple of years ago.
I won't even talk about Illara.
So you can't expect any of these guys to play a final ball consistently... fair enough. You have Isco and James for that. The problem is that both are AM/10s You can't play them as CMs in a 433 and just assume they're going to be the same. With Isco, it showed last year as he had troubles. James is also have problems this year. The crazy thing is that Isco's CAREER HIGH in assists is 7. James got 12 assists last season... but never more than 4 in a season before that
My point is that we have ZERO guarantees that any of our midfielders have final ball ability anywhere close to Di Maria AND we are playing people out positions + the CM profiles don't complement each other much (too similar).
Ok, i'm ranting
Like now.. we lost Di Maria and Alonso + Khedira got injured. Bought Kroos and James. We're left with Modric, Kroos and Illara... who are all relatively unathletic CMs. Kroos and Illlara rely on placement and passing ability while Modric relies on ball control. NONE of them are assist-maker. NONE of them play final balls.
Just to put it in perspective... Modric had a career 10 assists all comps last season. His high before that was 6.
Kroos' career high in assists was 10 too... a couple of years ago.
I won't even talk about Illara.
So you can't expect any of these guys to play a final ball consistently... fair enough. You have Isco and James for that. The problem is that both are AM/10s You can't play them as CMs in a 433 and just assume they're going to be the same. With Isco, it showed last year as he had troubles. James is also have problems this year. The crazy thing is that Isco's CAREER HIGH in assists is 7. James got 12 assists last season... but never more than 4 in a season before that
My point is that we have ZERO guarantees that any of our midfielders have final ball ability anywhere close to Di Maria AND we are playing people out positions + the CM profiles don't complement each other much (too similar).
Ok, i'm ranting
sportsczy- Ballon d'Or Contender
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Re: First Makelele, now Di Maria
thing is teams don't usually rely on their CMs to assist goals. Only Cesc Fabregas is capable of that but in a formation that suits him and his inability of tracking back. Most teams either use their winger (in 433/442/4222 etc) or AM (in 4231/4312/4132 etc) to be the assist makers, we were just blessed with a guy who could do it all bar score regularly.
Kroos/Modric/Illarra are brilliant passers of the ball but just not penetrative passes but I would not consider that their job anyways so would not judge them on that.
James and Isco might get some assists here or there but they are not better, in fact I see them all on similar levels when it comes to creativity, they just happen to like chilling with the strikets scoring goals neglecting their defensive duties
ANY CM/B2B we have been linked with can't create either instead we feel they would be solid in the midfield providing good passing outlets and physicality
Again I'll repeat it we were just blessed with having a one in a million kind of player who provided creativity from midfield and had the speed and lungs to get back to defensive duties without problems. You won't find that kind of player right now so it's pointless to give the others jobs they obviously can't do
Kroos/Modric/Illarra are brilliant passers of the ball but just not penetrative passes but I would not consider that their job anyways so would not judge them on that.
James and Isco might get some assists here or there but they are not better, in fact I see them all on similar levels when it comes to creativity, they just happen to like chilling with the strikets scoring goals neglecting their defensive duties
ANY CM/B2B we have been linked with can't create either instead we feel they would be solid in the midfield providing good passing outlets and physicality
Again I'll repeat it we were just blessed with having a one in a million kind of player who provided creativity from midfield and had the speed and lungs to get back to defensive duties without problems. You won't find that kind of player right now so it's pointless to give the others jobs they obviously can't do
halamadrid2- Ballon d'Or Contender
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Re: First Makelele, now Di Maria
sportsczy wrote:Only reason Barca and Madrid don't actually win more in the past few years (and Madrid since forever) is that our managements just won't do the obvious things... they just won't. It's as if we have some kind of deal with the football gods that we will make sure to frak things up on purpose. With Madrid, it drives me crazy tbh.
management hubris... perez is not interested in trophies, at least not as the primary goal... if they come on the back of a 20% revenue increase every single year that's all well and good, but he's investing in the team to stack his own pockets, not the club's trophy room
barcelona have the opposite problem imho, they're stuck so far up their own ass with the la masia passing football ideology they refused to acknowledge the blatant lack of a central defender, bandaiding the glaring positional need with defensive midfielders and youth products who are clearly not good enough... until now, when they're banned from transfers for a year so they hit the "oh shit" button and drop 35 mil on a 30-year old and an arsenal bench warmer
it's not just limited to those two though, you could write books about the mismanagement at valencia and atletico, not even going into other countries... football clubs in general are managed by ego-driven morons who just need to be proven right, unless of course they have a vested financial interest in making money off the club in other ways, like mr lim seems to have
che- First Team
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Re: First Makelele, now Di Maria
I'm currently reading a book called 'White Angels' which is about Queriozs season as RM coach which was written throughout that season and this is something I noticed too, won't surprise me of the outcome is the same too
fatman123- Fan Favorite
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Re: First Makelele, now Di Maria
@Hala. Bayern have Robben and Ribery who participated heavily in flow + build up and provided a lot of assists each... our wingers are nothing like them. Barca have Iniesta, Xavi, Rakitic, etc. Chelsea have Cesc, Mata and Oscar. City have Silva, Nasri and Yaya. Juve have Pirlo and Marchisio + Pogba and Vidal are not half bad at final balls either. Etc.
We're HOPING that James has a similar impact as he did at Monaco. In a 433, i doubt it tbh... at least for his first year. Other than that, we have nobody that have a reputation for creating that final pass out of the midfield.
Remember that we play with 3 strikers up front. They're used to receiving balls, not creating them consistently.... well Benz does; but he's in a strange position. We need him to stick to the CBs and there's not much passing he can do from there. IF we actually let him dezone all the time, then it would compensate some.
I won't even get into the defensive disaster that our midfield has become. It would just make me too worked up
We're HOPING that James has a similar impact as he did at Monaco. In a 433, i doubt it tbh... at least for his first year. Other than that, we have nobody that have a reputation for creating that final pass out of the midfield.
Remember that we play with 3 strikers up front. They're used to receiving balls, not creating them consistently.... well Benz does; but he's in a strange position. We need him to stick to the CBs and there's not much passing he can do from there. IF we actually let him dezone all the time, then it would compensate some.
I won't even get into the defensive disaster that our midfield has become. It would just make me too worked up
sportsczy- Ballon d'Or Contender
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Re: First Makelele, now Di Maria
Somewhat off topic, but how comparable are Madrids midfield last season to Zidane/Guti/Beckham?
fatman123- Fan Favorite
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Re: First Makelele, now Di Maria
See that's where the problem is, as you said our wingers are nothing like them. This shortcoming was masked by DiMaria because they only needed to make good runs and they would score. That's not how you should play in a 433, the responsibility of creating chances are on the fullbacks and wingers, Ronaldo can do it but Bale can't in which case we should switch him with James and try it that way.@Hala. Bayern have Robben and Ribery who participated heavily in flow + build up and provided a lot of assists each... our wingers are nothing like them.
It's also important to have an out and out striker in that case who you can cross to but we don't have that right now so we are in a bit of dilemma
Iniesta does not play final balls that much and the last time Xavi did it was probably 4 seasons ago lol. Rakitic used to be an AM for Sevilla but he has a restricted role at Barca, he can play those balls but won't be able to do it regularly. Barca are over reliant on Messi and Alves to create stuff for them. In fact the best way to keep Barca quiet is to keep Messi quiet. They obviously added another matchwinner now to survive in that situation.Barca have Iniesta, Xavi, Rakitic, etc. Chelsea have Cesc, Mata and Oscar. City have Silva, Nasri and Yaya. Juve have Pirlo and Marchisio + Pogba and Vidal are not half bad at final balls either. Etc.
Chelsea again rely on their wingers and their fullbacks firward runs. City rely on their attacking midfielder Silva, Juve have/had only Pirlo but he mostly does it from his own half lol, I don't even know what they will do when he soon retires or becomes a liability. We were the only club who used or wingers to score goals and our b2b to create. It is ok in the short run but in the long run we need our wingers to participate in build ups etc. Will be probably be like teaching Bale a foreign language but we can try lol
We're HOPING that James has a similar impact as he did at Monaco. In a 433, i doubt it tbh... at least for his first year. Other than that, we have nobody that have a reputation for creating that final pass out of the midfield.
It won't happen because not only is James an ordinary player with talent he is actually greatly overrated. He was just like any other player at Monaco but his excellent WC is what made people think he had it in him to absolutely beast for us lol. Might happen sometime in the future because he does posess some raw talent but we don't know whst might happen in the future. The best midfield is the one that can recycle the ball between both our wings all the while getting back and defending if we lose the ball
I agree, but that is the wrong approach that had nobody asking questions at the time because they scored and we won........ until it was up to them to actually create something. I agree it would be better if Benzema played in a role not being CF because he is not and will never be a CF. I liked him on the wing and would like us to try him there moreRemember that we play with 3 strikers up front. They're used to receiving balls, not creating them consistently.... well Benz does; but he's in a strange position. We need him to stick to the CBs and there's not much passing he can do from there. IF we actually let him dezone all the time, then it would compensate some.
That's just because Carlo's insistence on playing an AM at LCM when that will get us nowhere. If he played players where they should be played instead of trying to fit a suare pig in a round hole I don't think it would be a mess honestly. We are probably going to play the Modric/Illarra/Kroos midfield vs Atleti so we should definitely see how it holds up defensivelyI won't even get into the defensive disaster that our midfield has become. It would just make me too worked up
halamadrid2- Ballon d'Or Contender
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Re: First Makelele, now Di Maria
carvajal-varane-pepe-marcelo
--modric--ramos--kroos--
--james--benzema--ronaldo
--modric--ramos--kroos--
--james--benzema--ronaldo
will see this soon
terrance511- First Team
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Re: First Makelele, now Di Maria
Tbf, you could probably get away with the sale of Di Maria if you kept Xabi. The James and Beckham comparison is absolutely spot on though.
Gil- Fan Favorite
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Re: First Makelele, now Di Maria
sportsczy wrote:Makelele was the engine that allowed Madrid to attack with full confidence. He recovered almost every ball in his area, covered the back 4 and was far better technically than people realized... he got the ball forward very cleanly. Yet Madrid sold him after we won the CL and the team lost its balance. Why? There were more "galactico" players out there.
12 years later, we win the CL again. Di Maria had a similar impact: He covered for CR7's inadequacies, brought speed and athleticism to the midfield and had a killer final ball to feed that attack. What does Madrid do? Sell him because there are more "galactico" players out there.
In both cases, we never replaced the players either. We ignored what they brought to the team and naively figured that the rest of the team would magically compensate. Back then it was David Beckham and today it's James Rodriguez. That's not how it works. We needed a DM back in 2003 and we need a B2B in 2014.
Just sad tbh.
"We"
I thought you were a France/OM fan?
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Re: First Makelele, now Di Maria
Why are you jumping to conclusions on what this team will be? We're on 3 games into the season
Anyways if shit hits the fan, we have January to make some moves
Anyways if shit hits the fan, we have January to make some moves
LeSwagg James- Fan Favorite
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Re: First Makelele, now Di Maria
It's well known Sports is a RM fan
LeBéninois- First Team
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Re: First Makelele, now Di Maria
It's clear Perez doesn't think about tactics when buying players. He just does what's best for business.
We're going to miss Di Maria.
We're going to miss Di Maria.
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Re: First Makelele, now Di Maria
Bénin wrote:It's well known Sports is a RM, OM, PSG, Monaco fan
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Re: First Makelele, now Di Maria
Basically Ligue 1 supporter and RM fan
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Re: First Makelele, now Di Maria
for the 1000th time.... OM fan from birth. Followed clubs that Platini and Zidane played for since they were my two favorite players other than the ones they played for in Ligue 1. So Juve and then Madrid. When these players left, Madrid stuck and Juve didn't.
I support all Ligue 1 teams to do well when they don't play OM. Why? Because our league is having problems just like the country in general. PSG is saving the league's arse and deserves everyone's support (which they are getting). If the league was healthy, i could care less about PSG or any other teams other than OM. I'd watch the games; but i wouldn't care about the result other than how it would impact OM. But since things are what they are... footy fans in France need to have more open minds and support the league in general imo, which is what i'm doing.
You don't like it.... tough shat.
I support all Ligue 1 teams to do well when they don't play OM. Why? Because our league is having problems just like the country in general. PSG is saving the league's arse and deserves everyone's support (which they are getting). If the league was healthy, i could care less about PSG or any other teams other than OM. I'd watch the games; but i wouldn't care about the result other than how it would impact OM. But since things are what they are... footy fans in France need to have more open minds and support the league in general imo, which is what i'm doing.
You don't like it.... tough shat.
sportsczy- Ballon d'Or Contender
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Re: First Makelele, now Di Maria
Perez is in the authority
Anyways I dont see why people keep blaming Perez for anything.Xabi wanted to leave and Di Maria didn't get the money he believed he wanted nor a guaranteed starting spot.
I think Perez suggested Hames and Ancelotti being a Yes Man,didn't really mind.If you really want to believe Perez forced it on Ancelotti to buy Hames,you're delusional.
Anyways I dont see why people keep blaming Perez for anything.Xabi wanted to leave and Di Maria didn't get the money he believed he wanted nor a guaranteed starting spot.
I think Perez suggested Hames and Ancelotti being a Yes Man,didn't really mind.If you really want to believe Perez forced it on Ancelotti to buy Hames,you're delusional.
vivabarca38- First Team
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Re: First Makelele, now Di Maria
@vivabarca Carlo would rather keep Di maria than buying James for sure.
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Re: First Makelele, now Di Maria
Makélélé was seriously below-average with the ball at his feet. For all of the times he won possession at Real MAdrid, he'd lose it so often. That's why he would almost only pass like 5 metres.
At Chelsea he was always amongst the top passers when it came to volume and accuracy but again, it's because he would play short passes and because he was offered so much space on the ball.
The problem with Real Madrid is that they do not replace these crucial players well. I remember the Émerson saga when he would have been a perfect replacement for Maka. But they lowballe him so he joined Juve instead. And then Real Madrid ended up playing Beckham in central midfield.
Di María is a brutally inconsistent player, he's only played at a very high level in midfield for about five months or so. He was average at the World Cup and he's a record transfer? Honestly I won't be surprised if he has an okay season with all the lofty expectations of him.
At Chelsea he was always amongst the top passers when it came to volume and accuracy but again, it's because he would play short passes and because he was offered so much space on the ball.
The problem with Real Madrid is that they do not replace these crucial players well. I remember the Émerson saga when he would have been a perfect replacement for Maka. But they lowballe him so he joined Juve instead. And then Real Madrid ended up playing Beckham in central midfield.
Di María is a brutally inconsistent player, he's only played at a very high level in midfield for about five months or so. He was average at the World Cup and he's a record transfer? Honestly I won't be surprised if he has an okay season with all the lofty expectations of him.
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Re: First Makelele, now Di Maria
People were saying the same thing about Oezil and look at what happened next...
Selling Di Maria is a dumb decision but Madrid won't go back to their title-less days because of it. They still have a stellar team with great depth in every line. I would be very surprised if they don't make the CL semis.
Selling Di Maria is a dumb decision but Madrid won't go back to their title-less days because of it. They still have a stellar team with great depth in every line. I would be very surprised if they don't make the CL semis.
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Re: First Makelele, now Di Maria
As an aside, I find it interesting how sought after Émerson was by both Real Madrid and Chelsea about a decade ago yet he received nowhere near the appreciation that most top holding midfielders have gotten.
I mean, Émerson was Chelsea's first choice before Makélélé and he was Real Madrid's first choice after Makélélé. But he rejected the both of them, and he was just as good as Maka. He wasn't as limited either.
I mean, Émerson was Chelsea's first choice before Makélélé and he was Real Madrid's first choice after Makélélé. But he rejected the both of them, and he was just as good as Maka. He wasn't as limited either.
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