Re: Guardian's World Cup top 100 Footballers of all time

by Robespierre Fri Jun 06, 2014 11:40 pm

Zizou wrote:
rwo power wrote:
Zealous wrote:Pretty sure Lothar voted against his fellow Germans so he could be the highest rated among them lol.

Didn't work. He didn't get past Kaiser Franz

but how does he rank higher than Gerd Müller????!??? seriously?

I think it is normal to rate Beckenbauer as the best German player ever.
He was unreal already to England 1966 when he was 21 .

I suppose the rank for Germans is 1)Beckenbauer 2)Muller 3) Matthaus
Anyways, Matthaus is God :coffee:

by messixaviesta Fri Jun 06, 2014 11:50 pm

Robespierre wrote:
messixaviesta wrote:
Robespierre wrote:
Agreed .
Baggiodependencia.
The only difference , Italy was probably the best team in Brazil 94 on paper ( and this makes worse all . Personally infact I rate Sacchi as a disappointment in NT ,I remind also Euro96 , not at Milan levels ) , while Argentina 90 not

Was it? I always thought Brazil and Argentina were the favourites before WC 1994.

Argentina94 was better than 90 , the additions of Redondo,Simeone , Batistuta were outstanding, although Maradona was to end of career

Brazil had an unreal CF as Romario but for the rest it was the "worst" Brazil to have won the cup.
It played with Serie A flops as Mazinho and Dunga

I haven't direct memories about that WC but I know the most ppl in Italy believed to be favored to win it

on the other hand the frame of that Italy was the Milan 1994 who destroyed for 4-0 the Barcelona coached by Cruijff in Champions League final ,so it was not an unmotivated opionion .
And it had also an important bench . (for example this is the reason because Italy got kocked by Euro96 to group stage, Sacchi played the 2nd matches with reserves because we had important names also as benchers, we didn't call up even Baggio . .. that was a golden moment for the Italian football)

Some wonderful comments. I have read about that Euro 1996 thing.

Does anyone have any clear recollections of which teams were the biggest favourites when WC 1994 was starting?

by rwo power Sat Jun 07, 2014 12:26 am

Zizou wrote:but how does he rank higher than Gerd Müller????!??? seriously?

Personally, I don't like such ranking lists anyway, so I'm mainly making fun of them. After all, they always sell goalkeepers short, and I think that's a real shame.

by DuringTheWar Sat Jun 07, 2014 12:39 am

Robespierre wrote:
Brazil had an unreal CF as Romario but for the rest it was the "worst" Brazil to have won the cup.
It played with Serie A flops as Mazinho and Dunga

You are wrong brazil 94 was very underrated. Romario and Bebeto was a lethal and dynamic partnership, zinho and mazinho gave good support to the attack, they were very technically good, especially zinho, it was a good combination.

But to your logic, Holland must have been the "worst" as well when they played with "serie a flop" dennis bergkamp.

by Robespierre Sat Jun 07, 2014 1:42 am

DuringTheWar wrote:
Robespierre wrote:
Brazil had an unreal CF as Romario but for the rest it was the "worst" Brazil to have won the cup.
It played with Serie A flops as Mazinho and Dunga

You are wrong brazil 94 was very underrated. Romario and Bebeto was a lethal and dynamic partnership, zinho and mazinho gave good support to the attack, they were very technically good, especially zinho, it was a good combination.

But to your logic, Holland must have been the "worst" as well when they played with "serie a flop" dennis bergkamp.

But Bergkamp contribued to Uefa Cup 1994 won from Inter, he was even the top scorer of that cup in that same year. !
And the old Uefa Cup was better than now
Dunga was an average player, basically flop in Serie A. while Mazinho was a scrub. The substance was different

but anyway , I agree about Brazil as underrated. Infact I said they weren't rated the best on paper but they played a great cup and won.
And you misunderstood my " worst". I talked about players, because it was inferior to Brazil of Pelè and Garrincha or Brazil 2002 as squad. Oh , " Less strong " , it would have been a better definition , probably.
But it has nothing to do with their victory , for me deserved. Italy was better than Brazil on paper ( I think it's evident.. Milan 94 + other great players ) but it was only Baggio in pitch , and I don't appreciate particularly the teams who depend only on a player, expecially if they have possibilites to make better than this.

by Ganso Sat Jun 07, 2014 2:46 am

bar Romario, our current team is just as good as the 1994 one.let's be honest, Romario and Bebeto carried us to the title that year (with all due respect to tafarel,aldair,branco, leonardo etc)

by Robespierre Sat Jun 07, 2014 3:03 am

it's normal because Brazil was more inferior on paper . anyway Brazil had a route more coherent than Italy, so I think it deserved more that cup . I mean , Italy passed the group stage just as 3rd (repechage) after having got same points than 4th . it was going to be knock out by Nigeria Laughing

I think World Cup must win it the most deservable NT. I will be always grateful to the referee who gave penalty kick for Germany in Italy 90 final , not because the penalty kick scored by Andy Brehme unified the Germany more than Ostpolitik or the fall of the wall, but because it would have been laughable if that Argentina won the WC when it didn't deserve against Brazil, Iugoslavia and Italy Laughing

Anyway, I'm alwayss more schocked to think it was not included the man who raped the Brazil 82

just tonight I saw an episode dedicated to Espana 82 on Sky Italy

the real difference maker in 2nd phase

infact he was named MaraZico :coffee:

by Zizou Sat Jun 07, 2014 3:47 am

Robespierre wrote:
Zizou wrote:
rwo power wrote:

Didn't work. He didn't get past Kaiser Franz

but how does he rank higher than Gerd Müller????!??? seriously?

I think it is normal to rate Beckenbauer as the best German player ever.
He was unreal already to England 1966 when he was 21 .

I suppose the rank for Germans is 1)Beckenbauer 2)Muller 3) Matthaus
Anyways, Matthaus is God

No objections that Beckenbauer belongs where he is ranked - I meant how did Loddar get ranked higher than Müller?

by messixaviesta Sat Jun 07, 2014 10:50 pm

Robespierre wrote:it's normal because Brazil was more inferior on paper . anyway Brazil had a route more coherent than Italy, so I think it deserved more that cup . I mean , Italy passed the group stage just as 3rd (repechage) after having got same points than 4th . it was going to be knock out by Nigeria :lol:I think World Cup must win it the most deservable NT. I will be always grateful to the referee who gave penalty kick for Germany in Italy 90 final , not because the penalty kick scored by Andy Brehme unified the Germany more than Ostpolitik or the fall of the wall, but because it would have been laughable if that Argentina won the WC when it didn't deserve against Brazil, Iugoslavia and Italy

Well said. Agree completely.

by titosantill Sat Jun 07, 2014 11:15 pm

Imo the brazil side of usa 94 was the most disciplined brail team I've ever watched. I think people underrate them in terms of world cup champions because they had very little flash and samba like football...I did not see the brazil team of 82, but based on results, I would hazard a guess and say they were not so disciplined....brazil 94 was well balanced; romario and bebeto (shame people hardly give bebeto his props on that team) was all they needed on offence and dunga marshalled the work ethic on defense amazingly...nobody held the ball for too long, and they played to their strength effectively- which was, get the ball to romario or in some instances, bebeto.....argentina was the best on paper, they had younger more fit players, than the 90 side; batigol, cannigia,(who was in 90 as well), Redondo, simenone....I think maradona's expulsion really hit them hard, he was like a god to those youngsters, and if you hear their interviews about him, he probably still is like a god to them

by titosantill Sat Jun 07, 2014 11:30 pm

messixaviesta wrote:
titosantill wrote:italy had no business being in the final, but baggio came up with moments of brilliance when it mattered

Agree completely with that. Italy in 1994 was like a repeat of Argentina in 1990.

Lol true to a certain extent...but argentina in 90 was waaaay worse, a lot of their players were out of shape, and despite maradona trying his best to feed passes to forwards, they either botched his passes with poor runs or poor shots. that was probably the worst team to have ever reached a final, when they couldn't win, diego would just hold the ball up and slow down the pace of the game letting time run out, so they could go to penalties and have their goalie save them....as terrible as they were, I was impressed with how maradona played as a deep-lying play maker/central midfielder...he couldn't make those offensive runs anymore, but he knew how to pass the ball....he was just surrounded by clowns (excluding cannigia)

by messixaviesta Sun Jun 08, 2014 12:34 am

titosantill wrote:Imo the brazil side of usa 94 was the most disciplined brail team I've ever watched. I think people underrate them in terms of world cup champions because they had very little flash and samba like football...I did not see the brazil team of 82, but based on results, I would hazard a guess and say they were not so disciplined....brazil 94 was well balanced; romario and bebeto (shame people hardly give bebeto his props on that team) was all they needed on offence and dunga marshalled the work ethic on defense amazingly...nobody held the ball for too long, and they played to their strength effectively- which was, get the ball to romario or in some instances, bebeto.....argentina was the best on paper, they had younger more fit players, than the 90 side; batigol, cannigia,(who was in 90 as well), Redondo, simenone....I think maradona's expulsion really hit them hard, he was like a god to those youngsters, and if you hear their interviews about him, he probably still is like a god to them

Wonderful comments.

by messixaviesta Sun Jun 08, 2014 12:37 am

titosantill wrote:
messixaviesta wrote:
titosantill wrote:italy had no business being in the final, but baggio came up with moments of brilliance when it mattered

Agree completely with that. Italy in 1994 was like a repeat of Argentina in 1990.

Lol true to a certain extent...but argentina in 90 was waaaay worse, a lot of their players were out of shape, and despite maradona trying his best to feed passes to forwards, they either botched his passes with poor runs or poor shots. that was probably the worst team to have ever reached a final, when they couldn't win, diego would just hold the ball up and slow down the pace of the game letting time run out, so they could go to penalties and have their goalie save them....as terrible as they were, I was impressed with how maradona played as a deep-lying play maker/central midfielder...he couldn't make those offensive runs anymore, but he knew how to pass the ball....he was just surrounded by clowns (excluding cannigia)

You are right and very well said. Argentina 1990 had very little going for them - the inspiration provided by a far from fully fit Maradona, the penalty heroics of Sergio Goycochea and the negative tactics of Carlos Bilardo.

by Robespierre Sun Jun 08, 2014 10:15 pm

Zizou wrote:
Robespierre wrote:
Zizou wrote:

but how does he rank higher than Gerd Müller????!??? seriously?

I think it is normal to rate Beckenbauer as the best German player ever.
He was unreal already to England 1966 when he was 21 .

I suppose the rank for Germans is 1)Beckenbauer 2)Muller 3) Matthaus
Anyways, Matthaus is God

No objections that Beckenbauer belongs where he is ranked - I meant how did Loddar get ranked higher than Müller?

I think it was definitely a correct decision.

Mainly , Matthaus played 5 World Cup . Noone player as him in history. He has the record of match played.
And he has often left his mark.
3 World Cup finals played on 5. (1982,1986,1990)

And he was the leader (while in that other German was Beckenbauer) , the star in 1986 and 1990 . Both the finals were against Maradona.
He was a player so polivalent and infact in 1986 he marked Diego Armando Maradona and he was perfect to do it in first half, he neutralized Barrilete Cosmico . But in 2nd half the German coach decided to give custody of Maradona to Karl Heinz Forster and the results were different. on the other hand Maradona elected Matthaus as the best player battled in his career

in 1990 he led as captain the Germany to win the WC in Italy (and infact he will win also Balon d'or ) , although the penalty kick was shot by other Inter player , Andy Brehme

so I agree with this choice

by messixaviesta Mon Jun 09, 2014 4:57 am

Very well written about Matthaus.

by Zizou Mon Jun 09, 2014 2:12 pm

Robespierre wrote:
Zizou wrote:
Robespierre wrote:

I think it is normal to rate Beckenbauer as the best German player ever.
He was unreal already to England 1966 when he was 21 .

I suppose the rank for Germans is 1)Beckenbauer 2)Muller 3) Matthaus
Anyways, Matthaus is God

No objections that Beckenbauer belongs where he is ranked - I meant how did Loddar get ranked higher than Müller?

I think it was definitely a correct decision.

Mainly , Matthaus played 5 World Cup . Noone player as him in history. He has the record of match played.
And he has often left his mark.
3 World Cup finals played on 5. (1982,1986,1990)

And he was the leader (while in that other German was Beckenbauer) , the star in 1986 and 1990 . Both the finals were against Maradona.
He was a player so polivalent and infact in 1986 he marked Diego Armando Maradona and he was perfect to do it in first half, he neutralized Barrilete Cosmico . But in 2nd half the German coach decided to give custody of Maradona to Karl Heinz Forster and the results were different. on the other hand Maradona elected Matthaus as the best player battled in his career

in 1990 he led as captain the Germany to win the WC in Italy (and infact he will win also Balon d'or ) , although the penalty kick was shot by other Inter player , Andy Brehme

so I agree with this choice

You made a couple of strong points there and leave me with not a lot to argue with.
I might have to reconsider my preference... after all my judgement is - knowingly (by me!) - tainted by sympathy...

by sportsczy Mon Jun 09, 2014 2:35 pm

Ganso wrote:bar Romario, our current team is just as good as the 1994 one.let's be honest, Romario and Bebeto carried us to the title that year (with all due respect to tafarel,aldair,branco, leonardo etc)

You forgot Dunga and Rai. They were monsters back then.

I went to almost all the Brazil NT games btw as i lived in Cali and most pool games were at Stanford stadium. The semis and final were in LA. So i saw all but 2 of the Brazil games.

It was kind of a shame because every team parked the bus like there's no tomorrow against Brazil. The only great game was the Holland one.... and that one was in Dallas ffs so i didn't go.

by messixaviesta Mon Jun 09, 2014 3:26 pm

sportsczy wrote:You forgot Dunga and Rai. They were monsters back then.

However Rai's performance was considered so bad that he was thrown out of the team and the captaincy was handed to Dunga.

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