free_cat wrote:

jibers wrote:

rincon wrote:Barca + Sarri would be sexy... hope it doesnt happen

Napoli currently have the best mf in Europe for me. They create so many chances it's staggering.

People saying Gomes is crap need to be serious here. Gomes is talented but he isn't coached properly. The team doesn't know what to when they have the ball and just free style. No structure. Rakitic is actually the worst mf in Barcelona when it comes to technical ability.

You should be banned for life from a football forum. You know nothing.

http://www.espnfc.com/blog/the-match/60/post/3060600/mighty-midfield-overcomes-deficit-to-lead-real-madrid-to-win-over-napoli

Nothing new here, jibers always likes to act like he knows all and troll us Barca fans, I just laugh at it nowadays

My backlash was mostly due to the Rakitic - Gomes part.

As I said in another thread:

free_cat wrote:
First: ENOUGH with Andre Clowmes. We get it, you paid 50 milions for this pile of shit and you need to play him or you'll look bad. But he sucks. He doesn't have any evident quality whatsoever. He's not good at anything.
Rakitic recovered 3 balls in 20 minutes, while Gomes only two in 60, and it's not like he does anything better offensively. He has only one *bleep* assist in all competitions. Rakitic is head and shoulders a better defender and he sixtuplicates Gomes offensive output. SIXTUPLICATES. Playing less than the scrub.

With Rakitic:
Atletico 0 - Barça 2
Barça 1 Atletico 0
PSG 0 Barça 0

With CLOWMES:
Atletico 1 Barça 0
Barça 0 Atletico 1
PSG 3 Barça 0

It's a *bleep* disgrace and anyone who chooses Clowmes over Rakitic should be automatically fired from a football job because HE KNOWS ABSOLUTELY NOTHING ABOUT FOOTBALL.

I don't think Rakitic is as bad as Jibers made him out to be and certainly he is miles better than Gomes.

But if you look at the midfield as a whole, it is a way inferior to your past glory days. It was Xavi, Busquets and Iniesta (with very decent backups). Rakitic is the Xavi replacement and that's the point (I think) that Jibers was making. Rakitic is vastly inferior especially when you could have had Thiago in that position. And to top it off, Busquets is having a horrible season with no suitable backup on team and Iniesta is not only injured a lot, age is catching up to him real fast and again no suitable backup for him on team.

I think your downfall comes down to very poor recruiting. None of the signings in past two / three years have been good except Suarez. The squad now is very ordinary except the front three. Lucho has part of the blame for this, but it is the organization has as a whole that is responsible for this. And the salaries paid to that front three uses up the majority of the salary capacity of club forcing the signing of lower cost (and therefore lower quality) bench strength.

So although you can point a lot of the blame for this downfall at Luis Enrique, getting rid of him won't come anywhere close to solving your problems.

I say this as an outsider (a Madridista) and an Asturian who had been quite proud of Luis Enrique. The only good this downfall will do is to perhaps quiet Harmonica for a while.

free_cat wrote:

jibers wrote:

rincon wrote:Barca + Sarri would be sexy... hope it doesnt happen

Napoli currently have the best mf in Europe for me. They create so many chances it's staggering.

People saying Gomes is crap need to be serious here. Gomes is talented but he isn't coached properly. The team doesn't know what to when they have the ball and just free style. No structure. Rakitic is actually the worst mf in Barcelona when it comes to technical ability.

You should be banned for life from a football forum. You know nothing.

Coming from a guy that said Pedro had more technical ability than Stoichkov. Rich.

Gomes is not a bad player. You are looking are it the wrong way. I mean people kept banging on are bout busquets poor form. Look st the reasons behind the performance. Why was he poor? Did his abilities degrade? Nope. The midfield is just not coached properly and they don't position themselves optimally when building from the back  a lot of the times they use the side backs. Rakitic is undoubtedly a better starter because he has been doing that specific role for over 2 years. There has to be some automatisms. Gomes has a good 1st touch is a decent passer so why does he misplace so many passes?

Since Xavi left they have no guidance to contol games. Look how spread out the midfield was when PSG attacked. As a Barcelona fan surely you must have noticed PSG numerically outnumbered Barcelonas midfield in almost all their transitions. That's Is literally the antithesis of Cruijffs ideology. Munier was even saying he couldn't believe how much space he had.

How is Neymar receiving the ball with back to goal in his own half during the build up phase? All these things have knock on effects. No extra man/free man and the team has to result in one vs one duels in almost all areas of the pitch.

Barcelona don't need any new players. Rafinha is a good player. Gomes is a good player, Rakitic is a good player. The team has no compactness and are so easy to counter attack. That is a failure of the coach for me. Vidal was a decent signing and maybe a rb is an area that can be strengthened because that is not Robertos quality.

Watching that game I finally came to the conclusion that Messi has to drop deep. He literally wasn't given one clean ball the whole game. Neymar has to start runs from his own half, the team structurally is a mess.

Naploi have less talent than Madrid yet they were able to transition much better than anything Barcelona had done over the last few years. In terms of execution they use the best position play. If Hamsik Zielinski and Diawara can do that you think a triumvirate of Busquets iniesta Rakitic/Gomes aren't capable?

The board need to go. Laporta not getting reelected has dammed Barcelona. That treble hid too many cracks.

Who do you think the board will hire? I'm hoping for Sampaoli with Lillo as his assistant.

jibers wrote:Watching that game I finally came to the conclusion that Messi has to drop deep. He literally wasn't given one clean ball the whole game.

You took your bloody time though.

futbol_bill wrote:I don't think Rakitic is as bad as Jibers made him out to be and certainly he is miles better than Gomes.

But if you look at the midfield as a whole, it is a way inferior to your past glory days. It was Xavi, Busquets and Iniesta (with very decent backups). Rakitic is the Xavi replacement and that's the point (I think) that Jibers was making. Rakitic is vastly inferior especially when you could have had Thiago in that position. And to top it off, Busquets is having a horrible season with no suitable backup on team and Iniesta is not only injured a lot, age is catching up to him real fast and again no suitable backup for him on team.

I think your downfall comes down to very poor recruiting. None of the signings in past two / three years have been good except Suarez. The squad now is very ordinary except the front three. Lucho has part of the blame for this, but it is the organization has as a whole that is responsible for this. And the salaries paid to that front three uses up the majority of the salary capacity of club forcing the signing of lower cost (and therefore lower quality) bench strength.

So although you can point a lot of the blame for this downfall at Luis Enrique, getting rid of him won't come anywhere close to solving your problems.

I say this as an outsider (a Madridista) and an Asturian who had been quite proud of Luis Enrique. The only good this downfall will do is to perhaps quiet Harmonica for a while.

16/17
André Gomes  35,00 Mill €, Paco Alcácer  30,00 Mill €, Samuel Umtiti 25,00 Mill €, Lucas Digne 16,50 Mill €, Jasper Cillessen  13,00 Mill €, Denis Suárez  3,25 Mill €. This is a total of 122,75 Mill €.

15/16
Last year Arda Turan 34,00 Mill €, Aleix Vidal 17,00 Mill € total of 51,00 Mill €

14/15
Luis Suárez 81,72 Mill €, Jérémy Mathieu 20,00 Mill €, Thomas Vermaelen 19,00 Mill €, Ivan Rakitic 18,00 Mill €, Marc-André ter Stegen 12,00 Mill €, Claudio Bravo 12,00 Mill €, Douglas 4,00 Mill €. A total of 166,72 Mill €.

340,47 Mill € we have spent under Enrique in 2 and half years now which is about 113,49 Mill € a season on signings, money in terms of signing players has been an issue.

Our scouting, as well as Enrique poor choices have hurt us, there is talent like Dembele, Bernardo Silva, Sidibe, Mbappe, Fabinho, N'Zonzi, but we go for Turan, Douglas, Mathieu, Vermaelen, Vidal, Digne of the world.

Winter is Coming wrote:

futbol_bill wrote:



The squad now is very ordinary except the front three. Lucho has part of the blame for this, but it is the organization has as a whole that is responsible for this. And the salaries paid to that front three uses up the majority of the salary capacity of club forcing the signing of lower cost (and therefore lower quality) bench strength.

So although you can point a lot of the blame for this downfall at Luis Enrique, getting rid of him won't come anywhere close to solving your problems.

I say this as an outsider (a Madridista) and an Asturian who had been quite proud of Luis Enrique. The only good this downfall will do is to perhaps quiet Harmonica for a while.

16/17
André Gomes  35,00 Mill €, Paco Alcácer  30,00 Mill €, Samuel Umtiti 25,00 Mill €, Lucas Digne 16,50 Mill €, Jasper Cillessen  13,00 Mill €, Denis Suárez  3,25 Mill €. This is a total of 122,75 Mill €.

15/16
Last year Arda Turan 34,00 Mill €, Aleix Vidal 17,00 Mill € total of 51,00 Mill €

14/15
Luis Suárez 81,72 Mill €, Jérémy Mathieu 20,00 Mill €, Thomas Vermaelen 19,00 Mill €, Ivan Rakitic 18,00 Mill €, Marc-André ter Stegen 12,00 Mill €, Claudio Bravo 12,00 Mill €, Douglas 4,00 Mill €. A total of 166,72 Mill €.

340,47 Mill € we have spent under Enrique in 2 and half years now which is about 113,49 Mill € a season on signings, money in terms of signing players has been an issue.

Our scouting, as well as Enrique poor choices have hurt us, there is talent like Dembele, Bernardo Silva, Sidibe, Mbappe, Fabinho, N'Zonzi, but we go for Turan, Douglas, Mathieu, Vermaelen, Vidal, Digne of the world.

I had two points to make about the Barca organization that you bolded above.

One is the the recruitment which you have elaborated on and surely this failure is not all on Enrique. Yes he has a major part in this, but he is not the only one involved in recruitment, academy development and signing!

The second point was about salary load not signing expenditures.

Signings (in a non profit corporation) are treated as capital, and as such the board is able to designate capital separate from operating budget. The capacity is pretty well dictated by profitability and asset value.

However salaries are part of operating budgets and the board has an absolute limit in terms of what they can spend on salaries. I understand that the front three have used the majority of that capacity and thus there is very little salary capacity for the rest of the squad. Therefore part of the signing problem has been to acquire players that can fit in within these salaries limitations. For instance, if the club had signed Pogba as some of you suggested, it is very doubtful whether that his salary demands could have been met given these limitations. That may very well explain why the bench strength is so weak. Paying the lower salaries usually means lower quality players.

futbol_bill wrote:I had two points to make about the Barca organization that you bolded above.

One is the the recruitment which you have elaborated on and surely this failure is not all on Enrique. Yes he has a major part in this, but he is not the only one involved in recruitment, academy development and signing!

The second point was about salary load not signing expenditures.

Signings (in a non profit corporation) are treated as capital, and as such the board is able  to designate capital separate from operating budget. The capacity is pretty well dictated by profitability and asset value.

However salaries are part of operating budgets and the board has an absolute limit in terms of what they can spend on salaries. I understand that the front three have used the majority of that capacity and thus there is very little salary capacity for the rest of the squad. Therefore part of the signing problem has been to acquire players that can fit in within these salaries limitations. For instance, if the club had signed Pogba as some of you suggested, it is very doubtful whether that his salary demands could have been met given these limitations. That may very well explain why the bench strength is so weak. Paying the lower salaries usually means lower quality players.

I'm not saying he deserves all the blame are board has been bad in transfer market that's not news here, but be honest here at least 60-80% of these signing were his approval, everyone knows Enrique likes La Liga based talent 8 of the 15 signings were La Liga based players.

I agree in terms of salary, but that's my point there are better talent and generally players that would take the same wages, B. Silva is better then Gomes yet he'd cost us roughly the same amount in transfer fees and we'd pay him the same salary and the same with other players I mention above.

We pay Turan 85K, Maitheu 90K and Gomes 80K all weekly = 255K weekly on them 3 if we had not bought these players that would be enough to buy Pogba and pay his wages, who'd be more of an asset at the moment in time, especially considering the above mention players barely play and now Gomes is being more forced into the line up.

Here's a good article:

How Barcelona lost their identity under Luis Enrique

This is all right, but unfortunately we just dont have a player close to Xavi's quality to be able to control and boss the midfield like we used to, no matter how much we can try even if the next manager comes in and tries to revert to the Pep style for example, that just cant be done without the players good enough to do it. Our midfielders nowadays are just different players and not suited to that style anymore.

We will probably see the next manager taking the existing players further to their strengths instead of going back.

On salaries and signings, I think the club really needs to do something they should of done last summer (or the previous summer). They need to sell the dead weight and clean house and seriously rebuild a better team with a better coach.

Guys I would sell if I was in charge

Mascherano (33 in 2017) : I mean he had one foot out the door last summer, and is an aging CDM turned CB that we kept because he performed well from time to time and the board just didn't want to find a true CB. It's time to do that now.

Mathieu (34 in 2017) : doesn't even have to be explained

Arda Turan (30 in 2017) : China keeps trying to snatch him, so I say let him go and let us sign a real winger than can add something new to the attack. And in midfield we have plenty of options.

Iniesta is going to be 33 in a few months, but I think he can continue playing or at worse be a stellar option off the bench. So I'd keep him.

Guys on loan I would sell as well in the summer:
Vermalean, Samper, Douglas, Tello, Munir

I would either sign a decent CDM back up, or move Sergi to only play that role from now on (the back up CDM role) and sign a legit RB.

It's time to sign a real RB, and ship out one of Alba/Digne. The way full backs got wrekt against PSG is a clear sign we need to do something about that.

We also have a ton of midfielders, someone has to go and use that money to upgrade to a legit one.

Winter is Coming wrote:Here's a good article:

How Barcelona lost their identity under Luis Enrique

Nice article, thanks for the share

You guys seem to want to put everything on Enrique. I agree he has to go, but I think you are underestimating your problems. You are not only missing a viable coach, you really only have 3 quality forwards, little else. The board and management is just as messed up as the actual team. Unless there is change all the way thru the organization, this downfall will continue.

futbol_bill wrote:You guys seem to want to put everything on Enrique. I agree he has to go, but I think you are underestimating your problems. You are not only missing a viable coach, you really only have 3 quality forwards, little else. The board and management is just as messed up as the actual team. Unless there is change all the way thru the organization, this downfall will continue.

So Busquets, Iniesta, Alba, Pique and Mascherano are all suddenly bad? Not buying it one bit. The job of the coach is to minimise his players weaknesses and amplify their strengths. The board is at fault as well. Barto and Rosell wanted to distance themselves from Cruijffs methodology. Pique and Mascherano played in 2 finals as a pairing. Ask yourself, what was the team doing when they did well?

Busquets is still the best #6 in Europe at what he does. Barcelona have never been able to defend the conventional way hence why pressure is applied. The players aren't athletic enough to cover large distances so you have to minimise the areas you have to defend. They have lost all their essence. As I said, Rafinha, Gomes and Suarez are not bad players, in fact I would say they are good players, they just need direction. People kept bringing up Busquets "poor" form without understanding the issue. It's as if some people don't understand football. If you have a big space to defend, you will look like a worse player, even Maldini would look bad in Barcelonas defence.

Iniesta's skill set hasn't changes. Barcelona can't even bring out the ball cleanly and Like I said before they use side backs to build up which is a no no. Using side backs means you cut off half the pitch because you only have half the passing options, whereas if you go through the centre, you have more of the pitch and it's easier to access the third man, which is the most important concept, Barcelona don't even use that. The CMs are so far apart, during the build up Busquets is pressed and has no passing options so the side backs drop deep to help out meaning that the wide players have to drop deeper, which means they have further to run when they get the ball and they rarely receive it cleanly and have too much ground to cover. 90% of the onfield problems are from Enrique.

The board are there till 2021. The socios made thier bed now it's time to sleep in it.

futbol_bill wrote:You guys seem to want to put everything on Enrique. I agree he has to go, but I think you are underestimating your problems. You are not only missing a viable coach, you really only have 3 quality forwards, little else. The board and management is just as messed up as the actual team. Unless there is change all the way thru the organization, this downfall will continue.

Luis Enrique has had 3 summers to make Barca into the team he wants. If we have average players at every line, it's because that's the way he wanted it. Both him and the club are awful about spending money wisely.

Worrying signs: The sad confession of one Barcelona star

The frustrating situation transmits itself to the pitch, where Barcelona have gone various

it is worrying that Andres Iniesta and Sergio Busquets publicly criticised the strategy Barcelona employed in their 4-0 defeat by PSG but also that another important player in the squad has told his intimate circle "I have not been enjoying football for a while".

It is a comment that makes you think abou the situation that the team are in. It's clear that the tactical demands of Luis Enrique's blackboard don't allow anyone to relax, with each role split between attack and defence. A problem, without doubt, for players who are more used to thinking about the opposition goal than their own.

The frustrating situation transmits itself to the pitch, where Barcelona have gone various weeks playing with fire, in some games they have come out alive without knowng how. For example the league clash at Anoeta or against Atletico Madrid in the Copa del Rey.

Sadly it had to be in Paris on Valentine's Day that everything fell apart.

http://www.sport-english.com/en/news/barca/worrying-signs-the-sad-confession-one-barcelona-star-5840247

Sport is so full of shit I would not trust anything that does not include direct quotes

jibers wrote:
Coming from a guy that said Pedro had more technical ability than Stoichkov. Rich.

I might be wrong about that, but that wouldn't disallow me to talk about football because comparing footballers 20 years apart, and who never played together, or against each other, is difficult.

The fact that you keep insisting that Gomes is, or can be, better than Rakitic, simply shows you are a football illiterate.

Rakitic is twice the defender.
Twice the passer.
Six times better offensively.
Only thing Gomes has on Rakitic is his dribling, which he isn't showing with us.

Let's remember that Rakitic, before signing for us, had 20 assists and 10 goals and was the best player in the league outside Barça and Madrid. When Gomes comes near that, we can sign him again.

free_cat wrote:

jibers wrote:
Coming from a guy that said Pedro had more technical ability than Stoichkov. Rich.

I might be wrong about that, but that wouldn't disallow me to talk about football because comparing footballers 20 years apart, and who never played together, or against each other, is difficult.

The fact that you keep insisting that Gomes is, or can be, better than Rakitic, simply shows you are a football illiterate.

Rakitic is twice the defender.
Twice the passer.
Six times better offensively.
Only thing Gomes has on Rakitic is his dribling, which he isn't showing with us.

Let's remember that Rakitic, before signing for us, had 20 assists and 10 goals and was the best player in the league outside Barça and Madrid. When Gomes comes near that, we can sign him again.

So if I say a player has potential to be better than a current player that means I am football illiterate? Makes sense. Funny how you didn't respond to anything else I wrote. Rakitic has been doing his role for 2 seasons and was being criticised before Messi made Suarez move to the #9 position after the La real loss last year. Loads of Barcelona fans also called for Rakitic head. Again did his skills degrade? The system Enrique employs is geared solely for the 3 forwards and there is no structural plan to give it to them cleanly. The team relies on too many avoidable one vs ones in key areas.

I already said Gomes misplaced a lot of passes and when I say technically weaker, Gomes has a better first touch and is better at carrying the ball. I watched him play at valencia.  Gomes isn't and bad player he just isn't coached properly and they "system' (if you can even call it that) is awful. Is iniesta such and a bad player now? He misplace a lot of passes.

Also has Rakitic even come close to recreating his Sevilla form? Why not? Why is he always on the rw? Again Awful coaching.

Fans on here said Busquets was in poor form but noone ever analyses why. Football isn't an individe al sport. As I said Gomes skill set hasn't changed from Valencia.

Yes, you are. That, or simply haven't watched him this season or previously at Valencia. Gomes wasn't even good with them. Parejo has always been better at their midfield and he sucks. He never did anything deserving of signing for us unlike Rakitic, and at almost 24 he is mostly a finished product. He can improve somewhat, but he will never be better than Rakitic, that's a given.

Rakitic not doing what he did at Sevilla is a perfect example of why we need to sign players that excel at their clubs: when they sign for us, they have to limit their game to play for Messi and co. At Sevilla, he was the center of everything, something he will never be here. Imagine if we sign someone who already wasn't doing much at his team, and we ask him to limit his game more. The result is Andre Clownes.

free_cat wrote:Yes, you are. That, or simply haven't watched him this season or previously at Valencia. Gomes wasn't even good with them. Parejo has always been better at their midfield and he sucks. He never did anything deserving of signing for us unlike Rakitic, and at almost 24 he is mostly a finished product. He can improve somewhat, but he will never be better than Rakitic, that's a given.

Rakitic not doing what he did at Sevilla is a perfect example of why we need to sign players that excel at their clubs: when they sign for us, they have to limit their game to play for Messi and co. At Sevilla, he was the center of everything, something he will never be here. Imagine if we sign someone who already wasn't doing much at his team, and we ask him to limit his game more. The result is Andre Clownes.

Free, we are going around in circles. Your gripe seems to be that you think Gomes is a poor player. I think he is a good player not being utilised properly. He isn't a bad player. He has a good 1st touch as I mentioned, runs enough isn't all and has and good passing range. Iniesta mi spaces a lot of passes lately, Busquets has been in poor form for a while and you are still not looking at the bigger picture. The fact that the game has been given to the forwards is the problem. When Busquets is marked the team don't know how to postition themselves to make themselves available and even the most basic pressing is causing the team problems. Gomes isn't a bad player at all.

A clean build up makes everything easier. Now add to the fact that the forward don't even run to create space added everyone comes to the ball it's easy to see why there are saying aid aid many issues. Picking on Gomes makes no sense. Rakitic wouldn't have made a difference in thay psg game becaus he can't be in 2 places at once. If a mf of Jorghinho Hamsik and Zielinski can cleanly circulate the ball the the he forwards then there is no reason anyone in Barcelonas mf can't.

I gladly sell you Gomes to Man U, convince them to get him signed then. 25 milions and it's yours, bargain!

Koeman sounds as a candidate, with Valverde and Sampaoli.

Wouldn't oppose his signing, but I definitely think is the worst bet of them including Pochettino.

Unlike the others, that have triumphed almost everywhere, Koeman seems to be a hot and cold manager, with good spells like Ajax, PSV, Everton or Southhampton (kind off), and poor ones like Valencia, AZ and Benfica.

Definitely not the best choice.

futbol_bill wrote:You guys seem to want to put everything on Enrique. I agree he has to go, but I think you are underestimating your problems. You are not only missing a viable coach, you really only have 3 quality forwards, little else. The board and management is just as messed up as the actual team. Unless there is change all the way thru the organization, this downfall will continue.

I think I've highlighted we need a new coach as well as the lack of options all over the pitch. It's pretty ubalanced squad all things considered. When I saw PSG's starting midfield vs our 3 I instantly got worried. PSG doesn't have a terrifying midfield but it looks balanced and dynamic to me.

To answer you, Jibers and others re my posts on this matter, I am saying replacing Lucho and some of the squad will not make this demise go away.

Luis Enrique dismissal is only part of the problem. Although it is only one Big game bad performance, I do believe your club is in the midst of a major downfall. I say that based on observing the team with the conclusion that other than the front three, the team is rather ordinary.

I'm not saying entire squad has to revamped, but other than MSN, Iniesta (on a part time role for another couple of years), Busquets, maybe Pique, maybe Alba, maybe Raktic, maybe the younger Suarez, the rest of the team is rather ordinary.

But there are issues with club president, board and management plus not all recruitment, talent development and signings problems falls by default to Enrique. These issues need to be addressed to avoid a further downfall. and if one poster said that you are stuck with same president and board for a couple more years, then I say your your problems will persist to some extent for a couple more years.

Bill, I think all Barca fans would agree with you on the board, but unfortunately our socios decided for them to remain and not much we can do unless they decide to leave on their own.

However your correct to an extent that not all falls on Enrique, however Enrique has a voice and should make it heard for the club are doing things he doesn't want. However, with or without Enrique we would've bought Suarez, the same as ter Stegen that the board made, Enrique has made signings such as Paco, Turan, Vidal, etc.

Again you make it seem he had like no control over the signing, if were talking about average players he has a hand in it. At the same time, as far as I can see I haven't seen him even develop a talent yet in his 2 and half years here.