Ajax made us look like crap because we played with 36 year old Puyol at rightback and Montoya at leftback + Messi, Busquets and Valdes missing + meaningless group stage game after we were already qualified.

The games you are quoting here as proof of Martino's failed tactics are not comprehensible for me. Especially not the Rayo Vallecano game. Here is a 15 minute HD highlight which covers every chance and half chance. Barca could have won this game 9-1. Rayo created nothing except one cross at the beginning. Your criticism about that game is everything that is wrong with Barca right now. Seriously.



What is Martino trying to do? He is trying to instill additional weapons like counterattacks and more verticality to the possession template. It hasn't fully clicked yet because neither did he have any signings nor a proper preseason and some people are obviously interfering because they just want to keep the status quo where they are comfortable in. 34 year old Xavi has to retire or leave or whatever. Not start every single big game. Give Martino a proper centerback, someone with an engine and physicality to replace Xavi and a proper striker upfront instead of Pedrolexis, let Messi also fully recuperate from his injuries and get his head clear after the World Cup and we can only improve from here on, not further decline. Getting Luis Enrique will be a failure. A big one.

We have played better in the CL with half the team being from Barca B and already qualified. That excuse doesnt really fly...the team was playing like crap and Ajax made us look very bad. I would say 75% of it was tactical, they just were set up to keep the ball well and we had no counter to winning it back nor defending the goal.

I was not saying the Rayo game is a tactical fail, I cant claim that..we won by multiple goals..the result is a success. However, such a style of play can never work over any period of time against teams with true quality. That is the main problem with that game...it isnt about that one single game, its about what it means later on.

You surely have to play whatever style you play, consistently? Its impossible to play the way we did vs Rayo consistently..because most teams are better, use the ball better, defend better, have better attackers.

Martino is trying to add in verticality? What is that, basically playing it forward quickly and directly? Is this from the back? Because if it is, you saw the results did you not? When under pressure and we try and play it quickly forward, we struggle to actually get it into the final third because of our physically weak team...once the ball goes forward, it becomes a fight for a second ball, which again with our physically slow and weak team, we lose.

If your saying Martino wants to use counter attacks and play quickly when you win the ball high up the pitch...I dont think anyone has a problem with it. I dont think Cruyff is sitting at home thinking...this team sucks, winning the ball high and then attacking straight away.

Its the part before that which is so disastrous..we cant counter attack because we cant win the ball up high. So then we are forced back into defensive shape, but we have no ball winners..only finesse, slower players...the athleticism has been sucked out of this team via poor transfers and worse sales (an actual problem)...so then we have to defend for extended periods, which we cant...and then you add our centerbacks and defence in general cant deal with sustained pressure, dont win anything in the air and just generally dont do the things a well drilled back 4 do...how can we possibly counter attack?

Xavi has to not start? Well who was the coward who played him every game? It was Martino. And who would play in midfield instead? The even slower Cesc?

Give Martino X, Y and Z? He turned all that down because he is niave the issues the squad has. He came in with the attitude like all the players are great and they there no problems and they are champions, bla bla...when in fact, most people understood the failings of the team.

All that is on him..he came in late, but he had chances to make moves which he turned down..TWICE.

He wont even sign a goalie, instead using Pinto..come on now.

I agree, you give him all those things (against his will, or perhaps not now) and he will do better...no arguement...but I would argue someone else might do EVEN better than that.

I have no opinion on Luis Enrique, I cant predict the future. He did a good job with Barca B and moving to Italy was a mistake for him, which didnt go well and he got even less time than Martino.

If Tata remains Fußball will change the nick in Hoofbal ?

I would be curious to see De Boer there.  

Your concerns about "we can't play against better teams that way with this squad because they are weak" (in short summary) imply that this squad will not be reinforced accordingly. But at some point the template has to be laid and then you have to build on that. What else is the job of Martino? Trying to copy the Pep years because only that suits the players? Tito tried it and it failed. Why do people imply Xavi being 29 or 34 doesn't make a difference? He's the engine of the entire team. He delays passes for 1 second too long and it changes everything.

You have to begin to change things at some point, see who fits and who doesn't and what is needed to make it work and then add to it. This was always going to be a transition year. And frankly, we DID play against a better team than Rayo (Real Madrid) with about 55 % possession and we didn't get raped at all. Not perfect obviously, we suffered in the second half but this isn't something you couldn't build on.

Too lazy to write more right now.

The_Badger wrote:Who voted Brenton?!

I did

Has worked wonders at LFC this season. The quicker he leaves them, the better.

The Franchise wrote:Crossing is a fail tactic, for us. And I dont understand why anyone would advocate it.

I havent counted, but even the teams who use it often and are known to do it well....It takes I would say like 10 crosses, to get on the end of like 2.

And I would imagine not even 1 of those 2 end in a goal. It probably takes more chances than that.

Would having 1 guy who excels at getting on the end of crosses even work? 1 single target vs the entire defence?  Its not like other players get in the box. I wish they did.

If we want to add that dimension to our play, it cant be just sign one guy, no matter how good (lets say Falcao, one of the best at getting on the end of crosses) and lets bang away with crosses. It wont work at all. You need numbers in the box to actually be effective, which is a tactical problem.

Agreed.

Atletico used crosses against Chelsea and none of them succeeded.

If anything, as I wrote in the other thread, get someone who can be an alternative CF to Messi/Cesc whoever...but one that can also be versatile enough to play on the R or L of attack.

Possession football just has to be a bit more quicker and direct...and the most important aspect is the Pressing of opponents like Hungry Hounds, which is one of the Main Reasons we were so successful. That aspect is not quite there any longer. I still remember our 6-2, which was a lesson of why pressing was so much of an integral ingredient of our game and made it successful.

Look, this is exactly the problem:

Iniesta: "Barca style is non-negotiable but you can make changes."

When the players can boss around which style has to be played then yeah ... You run out of options.

This has even applied to Pep by the way. The players spoke against 3-4-3 because they had to run more. I still remember Pique publicly speaking out against it. Pep benched him and said sayonara after the season.

Fußball wrote:Look, this is exactly the problem:

Iniesta: "Barca style is non-negotiable but you can make changes."

When the players can boss around which style has to be played then yeah ... You run out of options.

This has even applied to Pep by the way. The players spoke against 3-4-3 because they had to run more. I still remember Pique publicly speaking out against it. Pep benched him and said sayonara after the season.

which is what i mostly meant in my original post, that if that mentality stays we will only begin to fail.
a club that is limited based on what the players/fans/board what wont get anywhere
what's the point in having a coach if he cannot implement everything he wants and is limited might as-well let xavi be a player coach.

You cant ask players who have had that level of success to play a style so completely different.

They are open to change, they are open to improvements...but obviously at the first sign of failure, they will rebel...this is only logical. Especially when the signs of failure were like Martino's.

I see no problem with what Iniesta said, its generous if anything. Of course the players can boss what style to play...we have played the same way for decades now.

I feel like you and donuts are both mistaking Pep's football to what we did before and saying that it was a different style. It was not...it was a almost flawless, perfection of an already existing style (like Van Gaal likes to take credit for) with all time great players at the peak of their powers.

Nobody expect that again. However, that same style has fundemental aspect which are just good common sense practices. Practices which you seem fine with throwing away for a style alien to the players first of all...but more importantly, a style which is plan inferior.

I feel like you would have a decent argument if the way Martino played was logical to the players we have, but it really isnt. Even then I wouldnt agree, but at least I would understand the clamour.

Our midfield is lack dynamism so badly, and not a single person can name the type of midfield which is required to play such a style.

Iniesta is a great player, and a incredibly unique one. Busquets is even more of a unique player. Both are incredible and for me, the two best in the game in their positions. How do you want to play a counter attacking style with those two? It's not their game, we all can see this.

dani, excellent comments. I pretty much agree with every word.

This was essentially my biggest problem this season that I couldn't recognize my own team. Quite often they were playing such a rushed end to end game that it seemed more like an average EPL team. The symphony of football that we/I take pride in was pretty much non-existent. That's why I didn't watch several matches this season, at least not with concentration.

We also crossed lots of times vs Atletico Madrid in both champions league games, but especially the away game.

Martina should have stopped those useless cross long time ago, as it was fail tactics for us.My biggest problem with Martino is that, he has no imagination nor has any tactical knowledge to counter his opponents.
What kind of coach play same line up time and time again?
I mean some time you have to play according to your player form, fitness and dedication. Some times you have to field a team according to opposition team weaknesses or strongest point, that's where a great coach should excels.
If we play same line up in every meaningful game, what we need for a coach, who can't even motivate his player nor has a ball to bench them.
I told you guys Martino is not a Barca quality. But he is still a good one.You just can't play a crossing game with this crop of player. Its's just stupid.Top of that he had chance to sign some one in winter he refused to do that.If he wanted to play his player cross game then why he didn't go for tall CF ?

some of Barca fans were arguing of our Philosophy, come on Barcelona were playing with same philosophy as far as i can remember. Why we are losing now? simple because we are not following our philosophy's fundamental rules.
I don't know what Tata wants to play. His team did't progress at all since beginning of the season.
Please we are not going anywhere with Tata.At least i can't see any progress.
I always believe, Barcelona need strong Personality coach.Tata clearly is not one

Dont understand the calls for Klopp.
There is one and only one way to play the game and thats the Johan Cruyff way.The Klopp way is not the Cruyff way.
Dortmund averaged 44 % possession or something in last season's CL.I think it was the lowest among the teams in the knockout stages or something.I dont want us playing like Dortmund.
We are not Chelsea who will park the bus to win a game.We are not Madrid who will park the bus to win a game.
We play the Cruyff way.We win the Cruyff way.We lose the Cruyff way.

alexjanosik wrote:Dont understand the calls for Klopp.
There is one and only one way to play the game and thats the Johan Cruyff way.The Klopp way is not the Cruyff way.
Dortmund averaged 44 % possession or something in last season's CL.I think it was the lowest among the teams in the knockout stages or something.I dont want us playing like Dortmund.
We are not Chelsea who will park the bus to win a game.We are not Madrid who will park the bus to win a game.
We play the Cruyff way.We win the Cruyff way.We lose the Cruyff way.

Your way of thinking kinda reminds me of Nokia and Blackberry.  

What is this? Martinez using Pep-like positioning and movement mechanisms?

How can it be? Impossible?!

Fullbacks high up the pitch? A midfielder forming a 3 at the back? Someone between the lines and 2 forwards in between the channels?

It hurts my heart that we dont do this anyone and people actually believe we cant, or worse, we dont see it and tell us "our football" is dead.

The thing which is however not applicable here is the role of Naismith. Messi wont offer that movement. Also Everton did not press the centerbacks, Naismith came off the man mark Arteta, dont see Messi doing that anymore than I see him high pressing.

alexjanosik wrote:Dont understand the calls for Klopp.
There is one and only one way to play the game and thats the Johan Cruyff way.The Klopp way is not the Cruyff way.
Dortmund averaged 44 % possession or something in last season's CL.I think it was the lowest among the teams in the knockout stages or something.I dont want us playing like Dortmund.
We are not Chelsea who will park the bus to win a game.We are not Madrid who will park the bus to win a game.
We play the Cruyff way.We win the Cruyff way.We lose the Cruyff way.

+1!!!1  

Tottenham are moving after de Boer since VG chose United. Better move fast

Possession football is dead. Deal with it. Cruyff got buttraped 2 semi-finals in a row.

What is possession football?   

To be obsessed with possession is stupid. Having more possession than your opponent is not the goal to football. Especially the static football that Bayern played today, it was reminiscent of a Barça without Messi and Iniesta magic.

But being in control is important, at least in my opinion. And to have control you need possession.

Possession is key to barca's play, but should not be considered the only ingredient. I am not against mixing it up. In the beginning Tata did that, but he proved to be to weak to actually do something other than play the "best" 11.

Do you guys think Klopp cant play possession? I think he might not want to have the possession to 70-80% but he might spice it up.

Also, there is this fact that people have figured out how to counter the Barca style, se we need to have two game plans. One is the standard possession and the other one i believe is the 3313 Tito played in the beginning of his season when he was not ill. I remember we were doing so much remuntadas with that one and actually braking the busses of mid table teams. I haven't seen that against the bigger ones, but i believe something should be done in such manner.

If only Tata kept doing what he did at the beginning of the season and wasn't influenced by whoever.

I still think keeping him would probably be better than getting Luis Enrique for instance. Not sure why I'm inclined to give him a chance but I just feel that he has shown only glimpses what he really has to offer. If he can't improve after next season, then by all means axe him.

What is it with people and their possession obsession? It's a completely arbitrary statistic like amount of throw-ins taken. Total voetbal has never been about possession. It's been about attacking and defending with 10 men and positional dynamics where every player is comfortable in multiple positions.

Dortmund play total voetbal. Barca and Bayern arrogantly pass the ball side to side, hoping for a gap to open miracilously. Which in fairness happens against scrub teams more often than not (everyone in Bundesliga, half of La Liga).

nah it worked when it wasn't found out, now everyone including regulation teams just sit and camp at the box with their whole team and we struggle to score a goal all game long while watching the most boring game ever.

They sit at their box because Barca and Bayern recycle possession endlessly and push their defensive line ridiculously high to shrink the pitch into the opposition half (which is just stupid tactics tbh). What else are teams going to do when you don't move the ball forward quickly and play with handball tactics? Stay upfield and don't defend so you can pass it around for fun? Mourinho is the only one who truly "parks the bus" as in "stay back and hoof it to the CF". Real Madrid didn't park the bus. Atletico don't park the bus. Dortmund don't park the bus. They get forward plenty with choreographed movements.

Guardiola has observed the effect of teams which chase games throwing everybody forward in the dying minutes and applies this high pressure tactics throughout 90 minutes. Then he looks lost when capable opponents actually exploit the ridiculous space behind his defensive line. It's actually amazing how he doesn't even see this. He got raped badly on the break by Chelsea and Dortmund before the season started in those Supercup games. 8 months later still the same. I tend to believe now he is completely incompetent and only a very good motivator who can make ridiculously stacked squads work their asses off and that's about it with him.

Maybe Pep is available lol