Re: Marc-André ter Stegen: The Young German

by alexjanosik Thu Sep 24, 2015 3:40 pm

Dont think it is as simple as you say. First goal,should he have been a bit further back.I dont know.Maybe had he been a bit further back,he could have touched it over. To me,it seemed he was a bit off his line than he should have been.
Then there were a couple of occasions on the counter(especially when they stole the ball from us on corners and punted it), when he should have been sweeping up high and he wasnt.
The 2nd and 3rd goal he let in,good finishes. But a Barca keeper should be immense in one on ones.So far,he hasnt been great one on one.
Lastly shot stopping.He doesnt seem an elite shot stopper to me like a De Gea or a Courtouis. Cant recall a single elite save he has made. An elite shot stopper maybe saves that 4th goal.
Add in his circumspect decision making on corners and I am having a few doubts.
Obviously I am in favor of giving him time. Mistakes will happen but the problem is that I am not seeing the potential besides his passing(which is the best for a GK I have ever seen).

by Myesyats Thu Sep 24, 2015 3:52 pm

Pique is out of form. I can forgive him those 2 mistakes.

Maybe it's due to communication?

I didn't say ter Stegen is at fault for the goals but it is a fact that we are conceding much more with him than with Bravo in goal.

I think Bravo let in a maximum of 3 goals in one game last season and it was against Madrid.... MAtS conceded 4 goals three times only this season!

by Hapless_Hans Fri Sep 25, 2015 1:44 pm

linetty wrote:Pique is out of form. I can forgive him those 2 mistakes.

Maybe it's due to communication?

I didn't say ter Stegen is at fault for the goals but it is a fact that we are conceding much more with him than with Bravo in goal.

I think Bravo let in a maximum of 3 goals in one game last season and it was against Madrid.... MAtS conceded 4 goals three times only this season!

It's nice that you're forgiving, though I don't think forgiving someone means blaming someone else who's innocent.

You keep saying "Bravo conceded.." and "MAtS conceded..".
No.
Barca condeded.. that's the point
Are you trying to tell me the only difference between performances that produced last seasons results and the thrashings you received this season is that another goalkeeper is between the posts? That's completely ridiculous, and it's a particularly cheap form of scapegoating.

That's why I asked, why are you posting this in the MAtS thread?
"I'm not saying it's his fault BUT we are conceding more"...
Why not open a thread called "what's wrong with our defending?" or something?

alexjanosik wrote:Dont think it is as simple as you say. First goal,should he have been a bit further back.I dont know.Maybe had he been a bit further back,he could have touched it over. To me,it seemed he was a bit off his line than he should have been.
Then there were a couple of occasions on the counter(especially when they stole the ball from us on corners and punted it), when he should have been sweeping up high and he wasnt.
The 2nd and 3rd goal he let in,good finishes. But a Barca keeper should be immense in one on ones.So far,he hasnt been great one on one.
Lastly shot stopping.He doesnt seem an elite shot stopper to me like a De Gea or a Courtouis. Cant recall a single elite save he has made. An elite shot stopper maybe saves that 4th goal.
Add in his circumspect decision making on corners and I am having a few doubts.
Obviously I am in favor of giving him time. Mistakes will happen but the problem is that I am not seeing the potential besides his passing(which is the best for a GK I have ever seen).

He made top saves against us in CL.
Anyway, I'm not trying to convince you he's the real deal, as I'm not convinced myself, I'd just argue that basing judgement on games where he does nothing particularly wrong while the rest of your team defends in completely shambles is pretty wrong.

We can argue whether he could behave marginally different for those 4 goals, doesn't change the fact that those goals are down to huge individula mistakes and overall terrible defending from the rest of the team.

As for the "An elite shot stopper maybe saves that 4th goal"..
Hmm. You can't say, and didn't say, an elite shot stopper MUST or SHOULD save the 4th goal.
So if an elite shot stopper MAYBE saves it, and MAtS didn't, how does that argument work against him? Maybe, if the scenes repeats itself 5 times, he saves one or two too? Who knows?
The only thing we know is that it's not his fault the scene is a goal.

by The Franchise Fri Sep 25, 2015 1:55 pm

The goal he got a hand to, he probably would look back on that thinking he should have saved it.

But the other goals arent his fault. The last one, thats football, experience of playing explains that situation..at the point in the game you know you arent going to win, the defenders keep doing bullshit and your usually mentally not at all in the right place to make a world class save.

And again, playing like 8 serious games a season hasnt helped him.

He doesnt lack confidence, but I think there is a weight of expectation around him now and he cant just go in goal any more..he has to do something extra or he simply cant win the first team position. Every single goal is analysed in a way it isnt last season, or when Bravo is in goal.

Bottom line is, Bravo will come back in for him and thats only fair at this point. But Enrique (I wont say we, because this is really one persons doing) hasnt done the boy justice at all. He hasnt put him in the best circumstances to succeed and I think other coaches would have handled this one much better.

by Myesyats Fri Sep 25, 2015 3:18 pm

Hapless_Hans wrote:That's why I asked, why are you posting this in the MAtS thread?

Hmm, let me think, maybe because somebody before me started the discussion in this exact thread?!

I don't enjoy discussing with you due to your biased opinion towards German players so i'll just leave it here. I'm sure you'd be OK with all of this if ter Stegen and Bravo swapped places.

so.... I know that the whole team condeces and not only the goalkeeper himself. I am very well aware of that buy I'm just providing facts for you that are really simple to seize. We are in a poor shape from the very start of the season but when Bravo played we conceded 1 goal in 3 games (that means 2 clean sheets at 2 of the most tough grounds in the leauge- San Mames and the La Rosaleda).

I never said the goals Marc recently concedes are making him a worse player than he was last season or that his talent vanishes. It's still there but we can't go on like that receiving trashings from midtable teams... that's why a Liga experienced Bravo is still waaaaay ahead of the youngster who's still got a damn long way to go.

by Hapless_Hans Fri Sep 25, 2015 4:59 pm

So you'd say that the trashings you receive are down to Ter Stegen in goal, then?

by Lucifer Fri Sep 25, 2015 5:11 pm

He seems to lost confidence from that semifinals against Portugal where he conceded 5 goals. has never been same from dat match imo. Was very shakey in finals of cl tbh. Also the schoolboy defending doesn't help getting him back to grove. We need bravo asap ffs

by Myesyats Fri Sep 25, 2015 5:38 pm

Hapless_Hans wrote:So you'd say that the trashings you receive are down to Ter Stegen in goal, then?

ter Stegen does have a tendency of conceding a lot and it's proven statistically in comparision with Bravo. The Chilean has the exact same players infront of him yet he hasn't yet let 4 goals past him in one game with Barca and Marc has did that already 3 times only this season. Again, I'm not saying all of the goals are his fault. Maybe it's just his guardian angel being moody, couldn't care less. I just have clear facts in front of me and I'm not going to ignore them.

On a side note, it's not like I don't ever want him to start for Barca again. I want him to play in the CL and Bravo in the Liga. We need Bravo's experience in tricky La liga fixtures and ter Stegen's reflexes and abilities to come out strong in tie deciding moments.

by Hapless_Hans Fri Sep 25, 2015 5:54 pm

linetty wrote:
Hapless_Hans wrote:So you'd say that the trashings you receive are down to Ter Stegen in goal, then?

ter Stegen does have a tendency of conceding a lot and it's proven statistically in comparision with Bravo. The Chilean has the exact same players infront of him yet he hasn't yet let 4 goals past him in one game with Barca and Marc has did that already 3 times only this season. Again, I'm not saying all of the goals are his fault. Maybe it's just his guardian angel being moody, couldn't care less. I just have clear facts in front of me and I'm not going to ignore them.

That's the thing I don't get. What are the 'clear facts'?
That you have conceded much more goals in some recent games, with ter Stegen playing.
Obviously.

Where I lose you is where this clear fact leads you to the nonsensical statement that 'ter Stegen statistically concedes a lot compared to Bravo'.
Because again, a goalkeeper doesn't concede, a team concedes.
Your statement of a 'clear fact' doesn't explain in any way why this would be down to ter Stegen, as opposed to many other factors.
That's what I'm asking. Taking the latest game as an example, how would you say ter Stegen's performance contributed to the goals conceded, in such a way that you would regard his performance as a cause?

by Myesyats Fri Sep 25, 2015 7:13 pm

We concede more with Stegen in goal. I don't think it's because of him but we simply do.

As to the last game, he should have done better on the last goal. Nolito's goal, I don't know, it was a perfect strike but he could have had been positioned abit better. But I don't blame him for it. Also can't be blamed for getting beaten 1v1.

Maybe it's luck or whatever reason you can come up with. But it's a fact that he did concede 4 goals on three occasions this season and i feel like I have the right to believe that with Bravo it'd be a different story.

As of now, Bravo conceded more than 2 goals only on 1 occasion in 39 games with Barcelona and it was against Madrid, which is somewhat understandable.

by Hapless_Hans Fri Sep 25, 2015 8:23 pm

linetty wrote:We concede more with Stegen in goal. I don't think it's because of him but we simply do.
.

So you don't think it's because of him? Laughing

But you concede more with him? Laughing

You understand what doesn't make sense about your stance?

by Winter is Coming Tue Nov 21, 2017 3:25 pm

Ter Stegen has saved 87% of the shots he's faced in La Liga this season, stopping 34 of the 39 shots Barça conceded on target. Impeccable.
— Rafael Hernández (@RafaelH117) November 19, 2017

by Myesyats Tue Nov 21, 2017 3:43 pm

Best keeper right now, no debate here. He's come a long way and it's a pleasure to witness him grow and improve.

by danyjr Sun Dec 03, 2017 10:56 pm

De Gea?

by futbol Mon Dec 04, 2017 9:58 am

Nope.

by danyjr Mon Dec 04, 2017 8:43 pm

Neuer?

by Lucifer Mon Dec 04, 2017 8:52 pm

Nope.

by danyjr Mon Dec 04, 2017 9:22 pm

Your mom?

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