Ban Midseason Manager Sackings?

by RedOranje Tue Mar 04, 2014 9:42 pm

Jamie Carragher wants to see a new rule introduced to stop football clubs changing their manager during the season.

Currently 52% of clubs in English football have a manager who has been at the helm for less than one year, while eight bosses have been axed in the Premier League during this campaign, one shy of the Premier League record.

Fulham, currently bottom of the Premier League, have had three full-time managers this term and Norwich boss Chris Hughton is currently evens with Sky Bet to be the ninth manager to go following Sunday's 4-1 defeat to Aston Villa.

But Sky Sports expert Carragher would like managers to be given more protection and wants to see a new rule that blocks clubs from making changes mid-season.

He told The Footballers' Football Show: "You see the carry-on at certain clubs when you have two or three managers in one season and it just looks like chaos.

"I think there should be a rule where if you pick a manager at the start of the season then he should be your manager until the end. You've made that decision and you should have to stand by that.

"I think the chopping and changing of managers throughout the leagues is something that should stop in the season.

"Also when a team sack a manager if results aren't going well, they go and get a manager from somewhere else. That manager will normally be doing well and that takes the manager away from a club and could affect their season as well.

"I think that would be something for our game to bring in, whether it's just in this country or around the world: managers get a job at the start of the season and no-one can be sacked or lose their job within the season."

http://www1.skysports.com/watch/tv-shows/footballers-football-show/news/9195868/jamie-carragher-change-rules-to-stop-manager-sackings-mid-season

Should such a rule be put in place? COULD such a rule be put in place? Perhaps they could allow for a "transfer window" for managers that follows a similar concept to that of player transfer windows?

Certainly looking at certain situations, like that of Malky Mackay at Cardiff and the ongoing issues at Palermo in recent seasons give credence to the suggestion that something should be done, but surely when a situation such as Di Canio's at Sunderland or Juande Ramos' at Tottenham arises the club should be allowed to take action?

Thoughts?

by Hapless_Hans Tue Mar 04, 2014 9:44 pm

stupid idea, also one that will never happen.

there's nothing wrong with firing managers whatsoever.

by RedOranje Tue Mar 04, 2014 9:55 pm

Thank you for your well reasoned and constructive post that will undoubtedly contribute a great deal to the broader conversation and help foster further responses and discussion. Rolling Eyes

by VendettaRed07 Tue Mar 04, 2014 9:56 pm

If it weren't for relegation then it might not be a bad a idea. But I don't think it's fair for teams near the bottom that can't make a move or bring in a player that can spark the team to not even allow them to get in a new manager to help be saved from getting relegated. Countless lower half teams have had their season an future saved from bringing in a new voice to get the best out of whatever few assets they have.

by rwo power Tue Mar 04, 2014 10:01 pm

When the HSV sacked Bert Van Marwijk and brought in Mirko Slomka, they managed to win the next game vs Dortmund 3:0 after they were useless for long weeks. With Van Marwijk they certainly would have been sitting ducks against the BVB.

by Mr Nick09 Tue Mar 04, 2014 10:05 pm

well let's see, in terms of the employer-worker relationship, something like that is unthinkable. Even if you offer a worker a one year contract, you can still let him go whenever you please if there is cause, and there is usually some kind of severance package, which is of course true for football as well.

It's a romantic idea, but no, owner have to do whatever they think is best to improve the results of their clubs, and sometimes that means sacking current personel and hiring new one.

It's no one's fault if more and more incompetent people are coming into the sports and making bad decisions that usually dont benefit the club by revamping personnel month after month. Well, that's just a badly run business.

so no, i dont see something like that happening.

by RedOranje Tue Mar 04, 2014 10:12 pm

Shouldn't the same employee-employer relationship apply to players and clubs though, Nick? Why is it that clubs can be restricted to specific windows for hiring and firing players, but the same cannot be extended to managers?

by Mr Nick09 Tue Mar 04, 2014 10:24 pm

yeah that's the only flaw in my argument.

But, it's my understanding that professional players contracts are not the same as employment contracts since the Labor Code in most countries exclude sportsmen from their application.

by Hapless_Hans Tue Mar 04, 2014 10:40 pm

RedOranje wrote:Thank you for your well reasoned and constructive post that will undoubtedly contribute a great deal to the broader conversation and help foster further responses and discussion.

you asked for thoughts, and you got mine.

by ioilersrock448 Tue Mar 04, 2014 10:42 pm

No, what is else would save HSV and Fulham?

by Hapless_Hans Tue Mar 04, 2014 10:46 pm

besides I'm pretty sure players and clubs could terminate their contracts in midseason too and the players would then be available for new employment.

Also this whole thing is based on the presumption that somehow sacking managers is an immoral or bad thing (because why else would you regard it as a problem that it happens often?), and if you can't elaborate on that presumption then don't expect an elaborated reaction, redO.

by Kick Tue Mar 04, 2014 10:54 pm

And what if a manager has a massive disagreement with the players? you can't just drop him like you do with players.

Managers are more important than players therefore giving them a transfer window would be disastrous to many teams.

Also, doesn't it normally involve termination of a contract, something which players can do at any time too?

I don't think it is fair to restrict the club to not being able to terminate a managers contract as long as it is mutual, they can always promote the assistant until a manger buying window. The main problem with this though is then managers will have price tags much more often.

by Art Morte Tue Mar 04, 2014 11:05 pm

I wouldn't support a complete ban. Just this season we've had some terrific examples of how a change of management can uplift a club's fortunes (Sunderland, Crystal Palace, maybe even Tottenham). It would be too cruel if you've hired a clown like ~~Moyes~~ Di Canio and he turns out to be a shocking choice but you couldn't get rid of him.

However, clubs are a little too happy to fire their managers. I would suggest a scheme which allows you to change the manager a certain number of times in a certain time period. For instance, that you would not be allowed to have more than 4-5 managers in a rolling 5 year period - or if you do, you get a small point deduction.

by Hapless_Hans Tue Mar 04, 2014 11:10 pm

but why should clubs get points deducted just because you think they are too trigger happy?

It's such a contradictory argument. One the one hand people are complaining that clubs give their managers too little time and how contraproductive that is, but then you want to penalize it as if they get an unfair advantage by sacking manager after manager. Which is it?

by BarrileteCosmico Wed Mar 05, 2014 12:20 am

I think its the wrong call. Statistically a German study showed that new midseason managers outperform their predecessor s by 12% more points iirc. That could easily mean saving a club from relegation. So manager changes are an important resource if the club is facing that.

It would also make teams more conservative in their manager choices, giving unproven young ones a disadvantage.

If. The issue is that they screw other teams You could make it so that you can't steal a manager from another team in the league halfway through the season. But then they would just bring foreign ones.

by rwo power Wed Mar 05, 2014 12:25 am

BarrileteCosmico wrote:If. The issue is that they screw other teams You could make it so that you can't steal a manager from another team in the league halfway through the season. But then they would just bring foreign ones.

Is that so often the case? If you look at Hannover (Korkut), Fulham (Magath) or HSV (Slomka), the coaches were free agents. Actually I think that clubs will think twice to buy a coach out of a running contract as they have to pay their old coach, possibly pay him extra money for terminating the contract early, then paying a fee to the other club plus pay the new manager...

by Onyx Wed Mar 05, 2014 12:40 am

Not being able to change managers at all in a season is a bit extreme. So yeh, a transfer window may be a better idea. Obviously I hope this wouldn't apply to all leagues, because if Real Madrid got a manager and we lost 5 games in a row, then there would definitely be chaos. In fact the same would apply to the majority of top clubs, so it might be best to just leave things as they are. Another solution could to have transfer windows, but if clubs want to sack a manager outside of it, they would pay a fee or something.

by BarrileteCosmico Wed Mar 05, 2014 12:49 am

rwo power wrote:Is that so often the case? If you look at Hannover (Korkut), Fulham (Magath) or HSV (Slomka), the coaches were free agents. Actually I think that clubs will think twice to buy a coach out of a running contract as they have to pay their old coach, possibly pay him extra money for terminating the contract early, then paying a fee to the other club plus pay the new manager...

Right, so if it's not even a common occurrence, does it need a rule change to enforce it?

by McAgger Wed Mar 05, 2014 1:15 am

Maybe there should be a cap on how many times a club is allowed to change managers during a season. I mean look at Fulham having already sacked Jol, and having hired Rene, who actually had them finally playing well but he didn't last even a month(?). Also cases like Palermo who used to (and still do for all I know) switch managers weekly.

by Red Alert Wed Mar 05, 2014 4:19 am

Wasn't Rene just a caretaker? He was never really given the job, or was he?

by Forza Wed Mar 05, 2014 4:44 am

RedOranje wrote:Shouldn't the same employee-employer relationship apply to players and clubs though, Nick? Why is it that clubs can be restricted to specific windows for hiring and firing players, but the same cannot be extended to managers?

The answer is that the nature of the market for players as compared with the market for managers is vastly different. The size of the player market, the enormous amounts of money involved, and the objective of maintaining the legitimacy of club football by preventing the erosion of club identity throughout the season are all relevant factors.

At the moment, I don't see any problem with the system itself that would require restrictions. Managers who are sacked are usually not unfairly sacked - in the sense that their dismissal can be directly attributed to the under-performance of the team. Huge severance packages are in almost every contract to protect the manager from capricious dismissals.

The problem of repeated hiring and firing of coaches exists at the ownership level. Owners and board members who don't value stability and consequently fire managers after very few games need to reform their behaviour. Maurizio Zamparini of Palermo is a perfect example of a bad boss. Coaches should also be aware of bad businesses and stay away from them: I will never understand how a manger like Francesco Guidolin accepted employment at Palermo 4 times. After his fourth sacking, he went away from there for good and now his work as a coach is highly regarded at Udinese.

by Le Samourai Wed Mar 05, 2014 4:55 am

You could have incentives for long term management I suppose, or penalties for excessive sacking, either way, stuff that forces a club to think about the decision to fire them a little more.

But to straight up prevent them from doing so is fairly idiotic. As others have said, you can't just drop a manager, once he's there he has a major influence over what the team does. The only way for you - the administration - to make a discernible change is to sack him and bring in someone else.

The transfer window idea does not follow Carragher's remarks, however, personally, I still think that would be over-regulation.

Also, how many guys really break contract mid-season and join a new team? Is that common in the lower leagues? The way Carragher talks you'd swear it occurs regularly, yet, to me, that seems a really,really rare phenomena.

by iftikhar Wed Mar 05, 2014 10:55 am

Even if there’s no complete ban, such sacking should be subjected to certain conditions. While a lot of sackings are justified, most seem (to me, at least) are whimsical. I think the sacking of Valencia (their ex-player) & HSV managers were justified while that of AVB & Inter (last season) wasn’t. For me, sacking a manager during the season should be subjected to the following conditions:

1. Disciplinary Issues: if a manager acts in a way the goes against the ethics of the club or the spirit of the game, he must be sacked.
2. Financial Meltdown: sometimes sponsorships are tied with the club finishing at certain level and renewal or fund release can be enforced accordingly. Also, when a team performs poorly their gate-receipts drops. Either can be a crucial issue especially mid-to-lower level clubs and although they might not be threatened with relegation, the financial loss can be equally catastrophic.
3. Inept Manager: Valencia (at present) and Liverpool (few seasons back) had a decent squad and yet their performance and position were totally ludicrous. Even though neither was in immediate danger, if a manager can’t get his players to perform (for what ever reasons) he isn’t doing his job and should be sacked.

by RED Wed Mar 05, 2014 12:20 pm

I don't agree with this at all. Most of the time, a manager does so bad, loses the dressing room with no sign that it will get better. The only option is to sack the manager, you can't sack the players obviously. bringing in someone new changes morale and changes the team for the better, as it has been proven time and time again.

hmm or maybe this is Carragher's thinly veiled support for the 'Keep Moyes at Utd for 6 years' campaign. hmm

by Lord Spencer Wed Mar 05, 2014 12:48 pm

Carraghar is trying to tie Moyes into United forever.

If he is not, then I think he is not evaluating the problems a managerial position can cause for a side. So much, that a much needed revamp saves teams from regulations, and in some cases gets them a CL or an EL.

Chelsea, in the three times they sacked a manager midseason, managed to go to the CL final twice, winning it once, and win an EL to boot. Ironic that their EL win was after their CL midseason manager Laughing

Also, the relationships between clubs and their coach, and clubs and players is very different. In cases of players, they are considered sportsmen, and hence a different style of contract completely. However, coaches are treated like regular corporate employees and their employers have every right of letting them go after giving them their complete rights.

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