dostoevsky wrote:
If we must replace De Jong, I'd rather we pursue our previous links to Geis.

That :vagi: when he becomes Merkel 2.0

There is no need to replace De Jong presently.

El Shaarawy wrote:

dostoevsky wrote:
If we must replace De Jong, I'd rather we pursue our previous links to Geis.

That :vagi: when he becomes Merkel 2.0

Special case, Merkel got pushed off the ball by Sebastien Giovinco.

Forza wrote:There is no need to replace De Jong presently.

But his contract expires in the summer, its fine since we're just talking about potential candidates that can fill his role. The same thing goes for Abate, as much as it pains me to even think about it, hopefully we do renew though.

El Shaarawy wrote:

Forza wrote:There is no need to replace De Jong presently.

But his contract expires in the summer, its fine since we're just talking about potential candidates that can fill his role. The same thing goes for Abate, as much as it pains me to even think about it, hopefully we do renew though.

I think that if we are stupid enough to let one of our only players who is world-class in their position leave, we are creating another Gattuso-sized hole that won't be filled for years.

Abate is different because he's been terrible defensively for the last 3 seasons. The only saving grace is that he's managed to contribute with some assists this season.

Forza wrote:

El Shaarawy wrote:

Forza wrote:There is no need to replace De Jong presently.

But his contract expires in the summer, its fine since we're just talking about potential candidates that can fill his role. The same thing goes for Abate, as much as it pains me to even think about it, hopefully we do renew though.

I think that if we are stupid enough to let one of our only players who is world-class in their position leave, we are creating another Gattuso-sized hole that won't be filled for years.

Signs over recent years point to yes, we are

I disagree that Abate's been terrible defensively, his issue has been a lack of continuity on the pitch which has led to inconsistent form at times. Whenever he's been fit for an extended period of time his issues of form has resolved quickly. It's difficult to rely on such an injury prone defender however. He's still our best fullback however if he were to leave, we at least have the option to return De Sciglio to the right and pursue a left footed option in his stead.

No, no i completely agree with you on Abate. Its just that i'm trying to face reality in that if we do actually let him go, who would be the best to replace him?

MDS on the right would be much better agreed, but its harder to find good quality LBs these days rather than RBs.

I sincerely hope we renew Abate though, can't imagine him leaving

Honestly, Albertazzi wasn't all that bad against Madrid + we have Armero. That's 2 LB's. The solution for me would be to move MDS back to his natural position at RB.

Suso is ours

Link

Though, it does seem that the RW is gonna be a bit congested...unless Cerci plays the Menez role, that is.

Nice. Not sure how Suso will manage but it's a step in the right direction . Also.

I agree with Dosto and Es on Abate . As for De Jong , we all like him , the team needs him , but De Jong is not world class . He's been good for us and he's one of the best in Serie A these days , but he's not a world class player , unless you think De Jong can bench anyone in midfield in a team like Real or Bayern or what have you. World class means unbenchable , anywhere in the world. Noone ever benches a world class player , you won't bench Neuer ; you won't bench Ronaldo ; Robben ; Messi ; Ibrahimovic e.t.c De Jong certainly isn't that kind of player , neither his play demands such high praise. Muntari could do what he does most of the time , in fact he did the very same job when he came that January. It's just he's wasted there , a player who can run fully the whole 90 up and down , you don't restrict him. Their passing is equally simple even tho De Jong is much more carefull and straight forward as well , in any case , they aren't to be attempting any Montolivo stuff anyway and they have proven this time and time again.

He's a very good , simple defending midfielder and that is all. He was never world class , he's not right now , he won't be tomorrow . If it was up to me , i would use him as b2b like Ancelotti used Gattuso , i would never let such a player of simple use to guard the backline and have so many passes go through his feet. Allegri did that mistake and most of the passes he did was over simplyfied elementary stuff which hurt our game. You need a player who can handle the ball there , not just about any decent passer.

Protected the defence and added support , no doubt , but hurt the play by not alloying advanced passing from the deep. At least Inzaghi has changed the way the ball moves forward so it's not the same thing there anymore , besides , we're better overall. I'd take Montolivo to play in De Jong position anyday , that's the kind of player you need there , quality on the ball . Defending isn't the DMFs job , it's the team's job. And i would also preffer Monto who's not particularly fast to start deeper than the faster players and organise , like he's suited. De Jong would be a dream in the 90s early 2000s for most teams , but that's neither we have today . Despite his good job , we do need more than that. Satisfied yes , fullfiled , no.

As for if Milan should sell him , no . Not unless they receive a really good offer. 15m minimum. Then maybe , Montolivo could play his fave role again like he did when De Jong missed the 2nd half of the season in 12-13 and he was at his best there and then . He even said it back then that was his preffered position. Not sure why all these coaches didn't give our best midfielder his preffered role and position , but whatever. As long as he plays well . He's basically part time playing there too , often taking the initiative to take the ball from the backline and spread it around or send it on a target. Imo , we would be better of with Montolivo there , instead of De Jong , however , i wouldn't like De Jong to leave as long as he's usefull to us. If he has to leave , he should be leaving for some good money .

Thought Suso could play cm, no? I was under the impression we were signing him as a vice Poli.

Nah, according to Arq, he plays like Silva does for Man City.

@Dante: Some good points you've raised, maybe NDJ really is expendable come this summer? Montolivo did more than just fill in when he was out. Maybe Monty in front of the defense and two partnering him up? Bonaventura/Poli/Muntari/Baselli/Brozovic/Iniesta/Schweinsteiger/Fabregas/Modric seems like a good midfield to me imo

Great signing for you guys. Suso is an amazing talent.

Reports that Abate has agreed to a contract extension.

Also the comparison to Silva is a good one, though Suso's an undoubtedly inferior passer. I always saw him more as a midfielder than a winger and in a sense it is an awkward transfer as whilst he's versatile, we already possess such flexibility in the form of Bonaventura, Honda and Saponara. What we really require is an upgrade to our starting eleven, however I would not reject his services.

El Shaarawy wrote:Nah, according to Arq, he plays like Silva does for Man City.

@Dante: Some good points you've raised, maybe NDJ really is expendable come this summer? Montolivo did more than just fill in when he was out. Maybe Monty in front of the defense and two partnering him up? Bonaventura/Poli/Muntari/Baselli/Brozovic/Iniesta/Schweinsteiger/Fabregas/Modric seems like a good midfield to me imo

Of course he did more , these days with Montolivo in front of the backline he was the best ever Montolivo i've ever seen. He had more succesful crosses than Pirlo that season ffs and their passing accuracy was pretty much the same and Pirlo played with the best midfield and best team Serie A had to offer , not with Muntari and Flamini next to him , lmao. Montolivo is versatile and can play well elsewhere , but there's no doubts whatsoever where he should be playing.

Great passer ,
has very good vision ,
can shield the ball when necessary ,
not fast by any means , position-role-area is ideal for the player he is ,
has the necessary height for winning headers , 50-50 at least ,
can also defend and tackle if necessary ,

He should be an assurance there , instead of a compromise with what we have with De Jong. De Jong shields the back four very well and is decent when asked to spread the ball. Pretty simple stuff , yet in comparison to Montolivo's spell at the same position , the captain remains a clear winner to this day. It's just Montolivo is versatile and could be used elsewhere , De Jong not so much , it would have happened otherwise.

And besides , all generals command from the deep and that's what Montolivo should be doing too , that's the kind of player he is . He's a general on the field and it really isn't a coincedence he was so good last time there. You don't see a general doing the workload , he issues the workload for others. And he scored his goals as well , he always contributed up front. We've been doing it wrong ever since . We lack all that ever since and Montolivo not only tires himself heavily playing more up front , he's not fast to be where he must most of the time at the time he's been needed . If you ask me , a midfield of Bonaventura-Montolivo-De Jong , would kill . When in need of more defending displays , Muntari replaces Bonaventura. Muntari-Montolivo-Flamini put up with Barcelona in San Siro ffs , now? We should be killing now , yet we don't , we have De Jong , a soldier , doing a general's work. We need a Busquets there , a Pirlo , a Xabi Alonso there and Montolivo is more than enough . Yet we use Montolivo as the right sided Muntari , ridiculous really. It's things like these i miss Ancelotti . Getting where players should play was never a problem. If he was here today , that's exactly what he would do and he would be absolutely right to do so .

De Jong is expendable and always was . That doesn't mean we should look to sell him , rather it's up to Inzaghi to bring the best out of his best players . For me , it's either Montolivo anchoring with 2 in front of him , or we play Montolivo-De Jong in the pivot of 4-2-3-1 . Montolivo being versatile is one thing , compromising his game to suit De Jong in is something that never really was ideal either. De Jong had a whole year there and he didn't even offer a glimpse of Montolivo's anchoring . It's complicated though , so i can't say much more. De Jong offers other assurances , which Montolivo cannot match. Noone here talks about it , but despite De Jong being one of our best players last season , he was a big part of our failings to play good football , we never had a worse midfield than last season.. He's very good at what he's supposed to be good at , but a very , very simple player after you move past that . If we take a look at the best 5 teams in the world at the moment , not ONE has such a player in that position . Apparently Inzaghi knows something these 5 coaches don't . Much more likely , Inzaghi never really learned what these 5 coaches did.

Overall, we can't and shouldn't drop De Jong either , he's currently very important to our midfield . But it's such a waste , Montolivo would be the wisest choice there. And besides , Montolivo in front of the back four would mean at least one more capable midfielder closer to the goal , say Honda or Bonaventura . Once again , defending is the team's job , NOT only the DMFs. 1 player in the middle will not stop the ball coming near your box . He may restrict the other team's most important creative player , but not the attack . In exchange for that , you get a worse midfield when it comes to playing football. Besides , when Montolivo was playing De Jong's place , we had a better defence and that's without Rami and Diego Lopez on top of it all.

Like Guardiola always made a point , every single attack starts from the very deep and it fkn matters how it begins. When the ball reaches that area , the best decision must be taken , a plan must be had , a crack in the opponents defences might be seen , reflexes against pressing must be immediate , WE NEED BRAINS there . Not muscle.. Gattuso did at least what De Jong does in his last years whenever he played there ; he was never worse than what De Jong is today. It used to be the meh choice back then. De Jong comes in and sadly everything is forgotten . De Jong is just another Muntari player , just slightly better on the ball . Muntari compensates for that with unreal physicality which makes him capable of playing b2b . I think De Jong could do that too and even bench Muntari btw , but he doesn't like to play there. Just like with Muntari , it would show how limited he is . Not sure if you recall , but when Muntari came in Jan 2012 and played 2nd half in front of the defence , he wasn't nowhere near as wastefull ; pretty much like De Jong , except De Jong knows his limits and won't try stuff he knows he's uncapable of.

Nevertheless , neither of them are players that should be playing in front of the defence in 2015's Milan .

Think you're being slightly harsh on De Jong Dante. Let's not forget he was by far our best player last season and defensively we have always been better with him in front of our back four. Where he struggles is when we attempt to play out from the back as not only is he mediocre on the ball but we as a team in general are uncomfortable in possession. Certainly part of the problem is our lack on identity though. If we set up as a counter attacking team with De Jong shielding our back four and montolivo starting counter attacks through SES and Honda there would be no complaints. The issue is when we attempt to dominate teams as De Jong simply isn't good enough to be the focal point of a possession based side.

I may be i won't deny that. Probably shouldn't be. I am just tired of waiting for this change , that's all . I really don't have anything against De Jong , honestly. I especially like how you put it , i definitely agree .

I just can't keep my eyes away anymore , De Jong was one of our best players last season and this is what we got anyway . He did hurt our game , not to mention he played the whole season. If anything , it means he was part of the problem , irregardless of how much better than other players he was. I know how it sounds , but when i have seen something better than De Jong there , i just want that back for Milan .

We are better defensively with De Jong there as he's more sound than Montolivo when he must , but Montolivo certainly wasn't bad in his defensive duties when he was used there. It's about pros and cons and the ideology of the position , the pros with Montolivo are more than the pros with De Jong there. Honestly , that is all. I like De Jong , i just want Milan to be better . Montolivo would be a better choice there , imo . De Jong should be playing on the right , doing what Gattuso did. And when it came to defend , he would help our wing more . Not to mention , going by his goal when he roamed forward to score 1vs1 against the keeper , damn we could do with such transitions as well. Montolivo certainly doesn't run nor move near as fast.

http://gianlucadimarzio.com/en/calciomercato/249792/

Dinamo would be stupid not to accept our previously proposed bid of (reportedly) 7m amirite?

@Dante, I strongly agree with you regarding De Jong and Montolivo. However, although De Jong has world-class defensive abilities, I don't think he is dynamic enough to play as a box to box midfielder similar to Gattuso; I hope I am proven wrong should De Jong play in Gattuso's position.

Dante wrote:I may be i won't deny that. Probably shouldn't be. I am just tired of waiting for this change , that's all . I really don't have anything against De Jong , honestly. I especially like how you put it , i definitely agree .

I just can't keep my eyes away anymore , De Jong was one of our best players last season and this is what we got anyway . He did hurt our game , not to mention he played the whole season. If anything , it means he was part of the problem , irregardless of how much better than other players he was. I know how it sounds , but when i have seen something better than De Jong there , i just want that back for Milan .

We are better defensively with De Jong there as he's more sound than Montolivo when he must , but Montolivo certainly wasn't bad in his defensive duties when he was used there. It's about pros and cons and the ideology of the position , the pros with Montolivo are more than the pros with De Jong there. Honestly , that is all. I like De Jong , i just want Milan to be better . Montolivo would be a better choice there , imo . De Jong should be playing on the right , doing what Gattuso did. And when it came to defend , he would help our wing more . Not to mention , going by his goal when he roamed forward to score 1vs1 against the keeper , damn we could do with such transitions as well. Montolivo certainly doesn't run nor move near as fast.

We don't play a diamond midfield anymore and Montolivo is not Pirlo. I think this is nostalgia-driven criticism. I don't know a 3-man midfield in the world that operates successfully without a proper DM in current football.

Real didn't have a DM in the same emulation as NDJ when they won the CL, Khedira was out injured and only played the final. But i give that to the way the team is set up really, you don't need a DM if you can afford to have world class players vanguarding your team.

In regards to Suso, there's a scoutnation video on him, hopefully that will shed a bit of light fwiw

Madrid did have Xavi Alonso who sat in front of the defence and performed a defensive role, even if he's termed a CM. But that's besides the issue.

The main problem I have is that I think the criticism of De Jong is unwarranted at a time when he's still our best midfielder, and arguably our best player. I mean, when there is so much else wrong with other players on this team, it's quite pedantic to be nitpicking to find faults with De Jong.

Suso looks like a good player. Do we own him outright now?

Forza wrote:

Dante wrote:I may be i won't deny that. Probably shouldn't be. I am just tired of waiting for this change , that's all . I really don't have anything against De Jong , honestly. I especially like how you put it , i definitely agree .

I just can't keep my eyes away anymore , De Jong was one of our best players last season and this is what we got anyway . He did hurt our game , not to mention he played the whole season. If anything , it means he was part of the problem , irregardless of how much better than other players he was. I know how it sounds , but when i have seen something better than De Jong there , i just want that back for Milan .

We are better defensively with De Jong there as he's more sound than Montolivo when he must , but Montolivo certainly wasn't bad in his defensive duties when he was used there. It's about pros and cons and the ideology of the position , the pros with Montolivo are more than the pros with De Jong there. Honestly , that is all. I like De Jong , i just want Milan to be better . Montolivo would be a better choice there , imo . De Jong should be playing on the right , doing what Gattuso did. And when it came to defend , he would help our wing more . Not to mention , going by his goal when he roamed forward to score 1vs1 against the keeper , damn we could do with such transitions as well. Montolivo certainly doesn't run nor move near as fast.

We don't play a diamond midfield anymore and Montolivo is not Pirlo. I think this is nostalgia-driven criticism. I don't know a 3-man midfield in the world that operates successfully without a proper DM in current football.

And what does a 'diamond midfield' is supposed to mean? The diamond , that shape , doesn't demand a certain 'kit' of midfielders , nor dictates the tactics used , neither where each type of midfielder should be. Gattuso did his job just as fine on the right and Pirlo made a career there as a deep lying playmaker , all that didn't require any diamond midfield , it was just the best combination between these players. Ancelotti didn't even always play a diamond lol , Pirlo was still playing there . Ancelotti had matches with 3-5-2 early on , elsewhere 4-3-1-2 , Pirlo still played the same role. We never played or needed a diamond midfield because that notion doesn't exist . It's about the role that fills the dmf position , the type of player , the ideals he brings in the play , doesn't have to do with any 'diamond midfield' or diamond formation.
The diamond formation has almost nothing to do with the first midfielder in front of the defence , or at least , it's certainly not the main reason you play the diamond formation. Ancelotti and Allegri and countless other coaches elsewhere have succesfully played the same formation , the diamond one , with different types of DMF 4-1-2-1-2. And different types of midfielders in front of them too. Again , there's not right kit thing to suit certain formations.

It's about making life easier for your best players . It has fk all to do with any formation really , let alone any unheard of diamond midfield , as if the diamond formation dictates it's own kit of midfield..

A 4-3-3 has the exact same diamond the 4-1-2-1-2 has , it's just the 9 which spearheads the diamond . And it all depends on the players , not vise versa. The diamond formation doesn't dictate a De Jong nor a Pirlo there . It's what a team ideally seeks to bring out of it's midfield players for optimal play . And in front of the defence , you need a Guardiola , an Albertini , a Pirlo , a Xabi Alonso , a Busquets e.t.c . Someone with brains , who will be taking hold of the ball and knows what to do with it , who can cross the ball anywhere , who can react with the ball under pressure and in general lines , under any circumstances not waste possesion , a great passer simply put , and more , such us taking part in the movement of the ball to the other half of the pitch , or controling the tempo , issuing when the attacks spread , unthreading the play when opponents allow cracks for the ball to pass. De Jong CANT DO SHIT ABOUT ANY OF THAT . We are limited by default there and like i said , the pros are more with Montolivo there. I am not saying De Jong does a bad job , or that he's a problem. I am saying , it's not enough and we can be a lot better with having Montolivo playing there instead of De Jong . 10 years of Pirlo should have convinced you , even if Montolivo will never be as good as him. However , Montolivo can defend better than Pirlo , so there's that too.

You think a diamond formation has anything to do with this principal , of the type of player that should be playing in front of the defence ? You are asking a limited player on the ball to take one of the hardest responsibilities in the game , to take the first initiative for every single attack. To hold possesion in the most critical area , where if you lose the ball , most always it will hurt one way or the other. De Jong's passes from there are the most elementary stuff you can witness , compared to what the best teams in the world have. Why? Because he knows he can't do more than that and he knows he can't waste possesion there by any means. THIS situation , is limiting our play . We cannot overcome inability , as simple as that. And that's why i complain . Tested and proved , Montolivo did a better job , much better job actually.  

Montolivo may not be Pirlo , but he can do his job alright. That was proved early 2013 and even himself said that's where he likes it. He has played there in Fiorentina in the past and with Italy. More succesffull crosses than Pirlo that season and similar passing accurasy overall. And Pirlo was with the best midfield in Serie A . Nothing else to add on that really.The only reason Montolivo doesn't play there is to accomodate De Jong. Not because we should have De Jong there.

Nostalgia-driven criticism ? lol . Where did you see nostalgia , just because i want a better player there? I'll even go by your terms , I've made the biggest criticism of nostalgia in this section , i've been criticising this nostalgia you talk about before it even became nostalgia. It's not nostalgia to want such a player there , nor pedantic or nitpicking as you describe in your other post. It seems like that to you because you over rate De Jong to the core. Best player? Best midfielder? Let's just agree to disagree on that , since it's just opinions. What i say is what i think is best , irregardless of De Jong's value as a player . It's what i think is best irregardless of Milan tbh. Who plays a De Jong there today , only mid table teams and Mazzari lol . The fact that he's one of our best players means only so much , it certainly doesn't make him neither world class nor untouchable . The fact i want De Jong played on the right isn't because i want a new Gattuso , it's because i know he won't be dropped.

And since you brought Xabi Alonso up. You say De Jong is world class. Do you think he would bench Xabi Alonso at Bayern right now?? I will tell you this , De Jong isn't even good enough to be at Bayern right now. Guardiola , one of the best out there , would never accept a player like him in front of the defence. Guardiola played Lahm there for the reasons i mention , and some more i didn't . That's how far he went to be certain he would have what he wanted from that position , he would never do with De Jong . Busquets is a DMF , is he the same type of DMF as De Jong ? He isn't . He has defensive responsibilties , they all do , but they don't play there for this reason . They don't play there because they can defend well , they play there because they can play the ball well , because they are creative , skilled and have a high football iq. Traits that De Jong isn't known about . Montolivo is our best candidate instead of seeking for a new player . Tested even and like i said , a general . This change would have a great impact on our fortunes , it will cost absolutely nothing , but for De Jong.

Last thing . The fact that Montolivo is so versatile , doesn't make him less suited for the role , it's his favourite position to play like he has said in 12-13 , i really can't add anything else . I rest my case on that . Sadly , i know i sat down to explain all this and you will probably think i am 'hatin' and nitpicking and pedantic and all that , whereas i really don't care who's been playing well or bad , i talk about all players pros and cons . What i think is best in my opinion goes regardless of how much i like the players . When last season ended , i criticised De Sciglio in a similar manner and nobody agreed then , was i nitpicking then too ? How's De Sciglio been this first half of the season btw? Not so good as expected. It's the same thing with De Jong i am talking about. Some things i like to be objective , i don't care to be accepted , nor i will shy just because the player might be liked , or disliked . I like De Jong too! Just not there. If it can't be helped , then we should really try the 4-2-3-1 and have both there and figure it out , especially with Cerci here and Suso. It's a crime imo not to bring the best out of Montolivo , just to bring the best out of De Jong.

•MilanDevil• wrote:@Dante, I strongly agree with you regarding De Jong and Montolivo. However, although De Jong has world-class defensive abilities, I don't think he is dynamic enough to play as a box to box midfielder similar to Gattuso; I hope I am proven wrong should De Jong play in Gattuso's position.

De Jong wants to play deeper , he has said so himself , it's not that he can't play b2b , he has played b2b before. He's very athletic , fast and his goal where he stole the ball in midfield and sprinted towards the keeper to score prove it , he can exist more up front alright. Gattuso never was anything special with the ball at his feet either , didn't bother us. He did his job , as i believe De Jong would do. He doesn't want to though. And with Montolivo playing deeper , we would also have better transitions , De Jong can fall back quicker and more often than Montolivo , with less impact on Monty's 'batteries' . We just tire Montolivo more to do things other players should be doing and bereft ourselves of his services at their maximum. All that to accomodate De Jong . Yes , De Jong had 1.5 year i saw what he can and cannot do. imo Montolivo there , please . I preffer to be able to play better football , first of all.

And De Jong has nothing world class in him . That misconception that since De Jong is one of our best means he's world class is beyond me .. One man's abilities will never be more than a team's plan on how to defend , saying he has world class defensive abilities means a team would have De Jong no matter what . When in reality , De Jong can't play as a regular in the best of the best teams right now , just because of his best traits. So no , nothing world class about him , when you ask me. I'd say his certainly high in the overall list , but not world class.