Donuts wrote:they finally got permission to show that, Rosell was not allowed to without Santos permission I believe.

Yeah I read that aswell, but why didn't they get it earlier? If they would have release it sooner, we could have skipped all this bs..

eelir wrote:I fail to understand how salary counts as transfer money? Can someone explain?

That, you have you ask the madrid media. It has never been counted before as a part of the transfer money. Otherwise C.ronaldo, for example, would cost more €94m or Bale more than €101m etc..

Agent fee and signing fee are not transfer costs, are salary related.

Also the permission was not from Santos, but Neymar s dad.

I like Bartomeu much more than Rosell but still would like new elections and a new board cause I don't trust them, especially Faus and Freixas.

meh i don't consider it a transfer cost but according to the picture they added it into the total in the bottom.

I mean i am glad Rosel is out, but it should have not gone this way with controversy. To me it appears he was not at any fault? Right? I am sorry i ask a lot of questions but i forgot the details when we signed Neymar and dont have time to read all the news articles.

from what it looks like no he wasn't at fault, but we as the fans only know half of it so truly we will never know.
for all the things Rosell could of resigned for this is the weirdest one.

free_cat wrote:Agent fee and signing fee are not transfer costs, are salary related.

Also the permission was not from Santos, but Neymar s dad.

I like Bartomeu much more than Rosell but still would like new elections and a new board cause I don't trust them, especially Faus and Freixas.

We all know that they are not a part of the transfer cost, that's why we all are confused to why they are suddenly counting that as a part of the transfer.

Donuts wrote:meh i don't consider it a transfer cost but according to the picture they added it into the total in the bottom.

The total at the bottom is the operating cost, the transfer cost is the 57.1 figure.

Apparently, Barca payed a scouting company €2.5m euros to scout players in Brazil, and they(the madrid media) have counted that as part of Neymars transfer aswell...

of course they would, the media has been trying extremely hard to make Barcelona look bad this season along with Messi and others.
just so they can try and hide the fact Madrid has been under achieving for the longest time.

Rosell's dream project - Neymar - turned out sour for him.

Donuts wrote:meh i don't consider it a transfer cost but according to the picture they added it into the total in the bottom.

They made the sum just to compare it with the total released by El mundo, but they explained it was not transfer costs but salary.

free_cat wrote:

Donuts wrote:meh i don't consider it a transfer cost but according to the picture they added it into the total in the bottom.

They made the sum just to compare it with the total released by El mundo,  but they explained it was not transfer costs but salary.

This was serious enough for Rosell to resign.. But the club is also standing firm on its version, and in this video Rosell has asked the judge to call him to give evidence. So I hope this all clears up soon, and the club doesn't suffer much.

OK.   Just to be clear with what a transfer fee encompasses from a financial accounting standpoint (and I worked at PricewaterhouseCoopers with the sports & entertainment group right out of university and we handled clients like MLB, FIFA, UEFA, etc at the time... so i know.  Long time ago; but the rules haven’t changed)…

A transfer fee in football is synonymous to acquisition costs in mergers & acquisitions in the regular business world.  By US GAAP, UK GAAP and IFRS (the accounting standards out there), it means every and all consideration given for the acquisition of the asset.  Now, the confusion here is that, typically, the agent fees, taxes, etc. are paid by the selling club out of the transfer fee they receive (can happen in escrow too)… the buying club disburses a lump sum and does not handle all the parties downstream.  In the Neymar case, Barca handled all the parties separately as opposed to giving Santos a lump sum and letting them handle the other people.  So when you calculate total transfer fee, you have to add all the different amounts paid by Barca in consideration for acquiring Neymar.  Another example is Javi Martinez…  Bayern had to pay the taxes and the fee to Bilbao…  so aside from the 40 mil release clause, Bayern also paid another 10+ mil in taxes.  The total transfer fee became 50+ mil as result.

So when you look at the Neymar total transfer fee, it should most definitely include the 86,2 mil shown in this statement.  I would also argue that the 25 mil that Barca disbursed the previous year should be added as well because it was a down payment in the deal… if the 25 mil really happened.

Now, what portion is handled as an "expense" and what portion becomes an "asset" that you amortize over time is a separate issue. That's just accounting games. But when you report the transaction in the footnotes of the financial statement, the total cash outlay that went into the acqusition of the asset + any deferred amount that needs to be paid in the future = total transfer/acquisition consideration .
Just to make things clear.

sportsczy wrote:OK.   Just to be clear with what a transfer fee encompasses from a financial accounting standpoint (and I worked at PricewaterhouseCoopers with the sports & entertainment group right out of university and we handled clients like MLB, FIFA, UEFA, etc at the time... so i know.  Long time ago; but the rules haven’t changed)…

A transfer fee in football is synonymous to acquisition costs in mergers & acquisitions in the regular business world.  By US GAAP, UK GAAP and IFRS (the accounting standards out there), it means every and all consideration given for the acquisition of the asset.  Now, the confusion here is that, typically, the agent fees, taxes, etc. are paid by the selling club out of the transfer fee they receive (can happen in escrow too)… the buying club disburses a lump sum and does not handle all the parties downstream.  In the Neymar case, Barca handled all the parties separately as opposed to giving Santos a lump sum and letting them handle the other people.  So when you calculate total transfer fee, you have to add all the different amounts paid by Barca in consideration for acquiring Neymar.  Another example is Javi Martinez…  Bayern had to pay the taxes and the fee to Bilbao…  so aside from the 40 mil release clause, Bayern also paid another 10+ mil in taxes.  The total transfer fee became 50+ mil as result.

So when you look at the Neymar total transfer fee, it should most definitely include the 86,2 mil shown in this statement.  I would also argue that the 25 mil that Barca disbursed the previous year should be added as well because it was a down payment in the deal… if the 25 mil really happened.

Just to make things clear.

Thanks. Your expertise here is very useful. Is this a typical or atypical top-level football transaction, in your opinion?

Also, I'm a bit confused about the breakdowns & totals

The way I understood it, it was :-
40M to N&N
10M sign-on bonus to Neymar
17M to Santos+DIS+TEISA
---
44M to Neymar as salary over 5 years.


Then there's
commissions to other agents = 2.5M?
+ consideration for 3 young Santos players = 7.9M
+ money generated from friendlies = 4M?

What is the breakdown, if you know off the top of your head?

I added this to my post... just to make it more clear:

Now, what portion is handled as an "expense" and what portion becomes an "asset" that you amortize over time is a separate issue. That's just accounting games. But when you report the transaction in the footnotes of the financial statement, the total cash outlay that went into the acqusition of the asset + any deferred amount that needs to be paid in the future = total transfer/acquisition consideration .

@jugster:

57,1 +
10 +
2,7 +
4 +
2,5 +
9,9 =  86,2 mil

Those are the amounts added to come to the figure.  As a Barca fan, i'd wonder about the 25 mil paid the year before.  Is that included here or is that separate?

Rosell and co. have gone to great lengths to confuse matters... very shady.  It shouldn't represent badly on Barca btw.  Seems like this is all a deception scheme put together by management and not something the club does by policy obviously. To me, it's all on Rosell and co.  It smells of "creative" accounting.

Thanks sportsczy.

The thing to remember is that Bayern were very transparent in how they handled the Javi Martinez deal.  They said that they paid a fee of 40 mil to Bilbao and had significant legal + tax expenses above that... so everyone knew that the total consideration was above 50 mil.

The issue here is that Rosell and co were trying to deceive people by say that they only paid 57 mill for Neymar.  If they had said that they paid 57 mil + other significant amounts related to the deal... then there's no problem at all. The rest is just accounting.

It's the lack of transparency and deception that's the problem imo.

I'll repeat... to me, this is a personal issue with Rosell and Co.  They tried to deceive Barca and the public.  Barca as an institution is not at fault.  In fact, it's because a Barca socio started asking questions that Rosell and co got exposed.  Always thought Rosell was a bad guy tbh...

That's not true, tho. The directors in Barca has never mention how much the total operation cost. They have only been talking about the transfer fee. Why would they talk about the how much the singing bonus and agent fee were, when no one ever talks about stuff like that when it comes to the transfer fee, or how much they paid a scouting company to scout Brazilian players in Brazil?

Just because Neymar asked Barca to make direct payments on his behalf as opposed to making payments himself... it's still a cost for acquiring Neymar.  That's the point.  These monies were paid in order to get Neymar... no other reason.  That's why the Socio sued (with support from many other Socios apparenty) + why Rosell resigned.

Rosell realized he was heavily exposed and is hoping that, with his resignation, the Socios will drop the lawsuit and he won't get further exposed.  Regardless of whether the socio lawsuit goes away... there's a whole can of worms that opened up in Brazil for Neymar.  It will be delayed until after the WC... but it smells like legal trouble for him in his home country.  Namely, Santos, the 3rd party owner and probably the Brazilian tax authority are going to take a hard look at this...  lawsuits will likely come.

And btw, all politicans steal and cheat.  Rosell just got caught here...  Madrid has had its own problems with Presidents cheating the club recently (Calderon).

But the thing is, he wasn't really "caught". The only reason why this happend, was because a "socio" has a grudge against him. The statement that the lawyer of this so called "socio" made, implies that he never cared about finding out the truth. All he wanted was to destroy Rosell at all cost..

Well, after hearing what they said at the press conference, I am pretty confident that nothing will come out of this..

What do you mean nothing came from this? The club was forced to admit we spent 86m on getting Neymar, not 57...

Actually on transfer from Santos it was only 17,1 + 7,9 from the preferential rights (which are obviously part of the transfer deal as preferential rights are worth much less).

Rest is salary for the player/signing bonus or his father's part (which is like paying Neymar given the clan mentality of Brazilians.

BarrileteCosmico wrote:What do you mean nothing came from this? The club was forced to admit we spent 86m on getting Neymar, not 57...

False! The club has done no such thing. Infact, in the press conference Bartomeu said like a million times that the transfer cost for Neymar was €57,1m. The €86,2m included alot of things that you normally don't include as a part of the transfer cost, like agent fee and bonus on signing. The only reason they mentioned the €86,2m was to compare it to the article from El Mundo.

Saying that Neymar cost €86,2m is like saying that Bale cost €265m. The only difference between thesse two prices is that MD counted with the salary, while the Barca board did not..

Free_cat can probably give you a better explanation that I can, but belive me when I say that the board didn't say that the transfer cost was €86,2m

if you guys want to delude yourselves, be my guest...  but the Madrid fee was all in for Bale (somewhere in the 90s).  All 3rd party fees were paid by the Spurs from that amount.  There was nothing else to say.  It didn't include Bale's wages either.  The 86,2 million is the total consideration paid by Barca to Neymar, Santos and other various related parties to secure the transfer of Neymar to Barca... that's the bottom line.  That's what Barca, the socios and everyone cares about.  What hair-brained scheme Barca & Neymar devised to split the cash outflow is not relevant... the question is:  How much consideration did Barca have to pay to secure the transfer of Neymar?  The answer is 86,2 million according to this document.