Re: Taliban to Start Talks With U.S. and Afghan Government

by McLewis Tue Aug 17, 2021 1:25 am

Comments from Biden:

Pres. Biden on “cold reality” of following through with peace agreement the Trump administration brokered with the Taliban to pull troops out of Afghanistan by May 1: “I stand squarely behind my decision.” https://t.co/7TcqrjO6RB pic.twitter.com/oczIk6fhS8
— ABC News Politics (@ABCPolitics) August 17, 2021

I think most Americans, though they feel for the plight of many Afghans, particularly the women, view this as the ripping off of a bandaid. It's initially painful, but still the right thing to do. I don't think anyone likes the way this was done and I do think there must've been some type of lapse in Intelligence in-country if Biden had to admit to the nation and the world that the Taliban's rapid retaking of the country progressed faster than anticipated. Politically, any lapse in communication like that is hurtful to his political capital.

How history will view this depends largely on how many people trying to flee the country end up dying at the hands of the Taliban and how many people we resettle under the Special Immigrant Visa program. Right now it's just allies who helped us (like translators). I think it needs to be expanded to anyone who doesn't want to live under Taliban rule. Maybe it will get there, but how many killed before that happens will have an impact on how Biden's role in this is viewed.

by Myesyats Tue Aug 17, 2021 9:14 am

VivaStPauli wrote:
Myesyats wrote:
The Taliban has announced their political agenda for Afghanistan includes:

- Abortion is banned
- Gay marriage outlawed
- Rejection of science
- No vaccines (against their religion)
- No separation of church & state
- Religion taught in schools
— William LeGate (@williamlegate) August 15, 2021

At first I was like "wow", but on second thought these rules are already law in my country

Isn't that just red states in America?

yep lol.

status in poland currently:
- Abortion is banned - true
- Gay marriage outlawed - true
- Rejection of science - somewhat true
- No vaccines (against their religion) - false
- No separation of church & state - true
- Religion taught in schools - true

Thats 5/6. Do i live in afghanistan? ;/

by Nishankly Tue Aug 17, 2021 9:34 am

Myesyats wrote:
VivaStPauli wrote:
Myesyats wrote:
The Taliban has announced their political agenda for Afghanistan includes:

- Abortion is banned
- Gay marriage outlawed
- Rejection of science
- No vaccines (against their religion)
- No separation of church & state
- Religion taught in schools
— William LeGate (@williamlegate) August 15, 2021

At first I was like "wow", but on second thought these rules are already law in my country

Isn't that just red states in America?

yep lol.

status in poland currently:
- Abortion is banned - true
- Gay marriage outlawed - true
- Rejection of science - somewhat true
- No vaccines (against their religion) - false
- No separation of church & state - true
- Religion taught in schools - true

Thats 5/6. Do i live in afghanistan? ;/

Damn here in India:

- Abortion is banned - allowed until first 20 weeks, then banned

- Gay marriage outlawed - Ongoing to be decriminalized but no punishments for same sex relationships and common to see same sex couples nowadays, still touchy with the population

- Rejection of science - everyone becomes an engineer here first then thinks about what to do in life

- No vaccines (against their religion) - people crying out loud for vaccines here

- No separation of church/religion & state - true but depends on the government, current one claims secularity but doesn't show it

- Religion taught in schools - State and private schools are prohibited from teaching religion, some religious based schools do.

by Found Tue Aug 17, 2021 10:51 am

Myesyats wrote:
The Taliban has announced their political agenda for Afghanistan includes:

- Abortion is banned
- Gay marriage outlawed
- Rejection of science
- No vaccines (against their religion)
- No separation of church & state
- Religion taught in schools
— William LeGate (@williamlegate) August 15, 2021

At first I was like "wow", but on second thought these rules are already law in my country

That’s a laughably bad faith framing, almost amusing if the issue wasn’t so serious, that seem just to be a barb at western, specifically American, conservatism.
Gay marriage? The difference the taliban will make to Afghanistan is that instead of going to prison for gay activities you will be publicly executed for gay activity, in a presumably brutal manner. And we’re talking about gay marriage? The taliban isn’t 10 years behind on gay rights, they’re centuries behind, at least.

There are few countries outside of what usually referred to as western civilisation where marriage equality exists. And of those few most have significant roots in western civilisation.
What makes the taliban stand out is the extremism, how comfortable they are with violence.

Taliban to Start Talks With U.S. and Afghan Government - Page 3 A114ae10

by rincon Tue Aug 17, 2021 11:02 am

Found wrote:
Myesyats wrote:
The Taliban has announced their political agenda for Afghanistan includes:

- Abortion is banned
- Gay marriage outlawed
- Rejection of science
- No vaccines (against their religion)
- No separation of church & state
- Religion taught in schools
— William LeGate (@williamlegate) August 15, 2021

At first I was like "wow", but on second thought these rules are already law in my country

That’s a laughably bad faith framing, almost amusing if the issue wasn’t so serious, that seem just to be a barb at western, specifically American, conservatism.
Gay marriage? The difference the taliban will make to Afghanistan is that instead of going to prison for gay activities you will be publicly executed for gay activity, in a presumably brutal manner. And we’re talking about gay marriage? The taliban isn’t 10 years behind on gay rights, they’re centuries behind, at least.

There are few countries outside of what usually referred to as western civilisation where marriage equality exists. And of those few most have significant roots in western civilisation.
What makes the taliban stand out is the extremism, how comfortable they are with violence.

Exactly what I came to write earlier but forgot to send the post.

We shouldn't make even the slightest comparison of the taliban with US republicans or polish conservatives. To transpose it onto any left vs right argument in the western world does a disservice to everyone.

Its a whole different level of extremism that we should all agree to condemn instead of trying to transpose onto our local issues.

by Myesyats Tue Aug 17, 2021 11:41 am

Yeah i didnt mean to equate taliban extremism to traditional conservatism in any way but it did come across that way which is my fault

by Robespierre Tue Aug 17, 2021 11:49 am

Well I don't think someone was comparing realities really, just a sarcastic view , a bitter sarcasm on local reality.
Sadly I can't be surprised on Sharia's principles, I expect it implies this, and of course Sharia is the most tragic thing and not comparable with Europe, everyone agrees on it , but well I feel it's even weirdest what it happens in countries that don't marry a closure but a Community design (theorically )
paradoxically Poland had one of most libertarian legislations in this area in 60s-70s ( for example Abortion in Italy became legal just in May 1978). In fact Poland represents the only EU country to be passed from legislation pro-choice to very restrictive (Orban 's trying but still not...)
For this reason n that period Poland was one of the main European destinations for abortion tourism, both for its own legislation and for the very low costs of surgical interventions.
Then collapse of USSR (first country to depenalize abortiion) marked a definite change of direction.
The Catholic Church, severely repressed during the Communist years , since 90s began to exert a strong influence on Polish society.
Moral of story, anyone who thinks of subjugating, subjugating, governing a society on the basis of a religion has my contempt.

by elitedam Tue Aug 17, 2021 12:00 pm

I thought it was very clear Myesyats was joking and not seriously comparing the Taliban to Western conservatives.

On topic, this is depressing as hell.

by BarrileteCosmico Tue Aug 17, 2021 1:07 pm

https://twitter.com/aahmady/status/1427265049668636674?s=20

Interesting thread on the ground view. Seems crazy to me that even a high level got official like the central bank president was caught off guard by this

by rincon Tue Aug 17, 2021 1:50 pm

I know that Myesyats or Robes were being sarcastic, it was more annoyance at general trends and at the person who made that tweet more than anything. It's not the time to use this to polarize certain issues and attack other groups.

Its just such a grim topic, I feel exactly this:

elitedam wrote:
On topic, this is depressing as hell.

by RealGunner Tue Aug 17, 2021 4:26 pm

Taliban just did their first press conference.

Quite reasonable statements and thankfully no declaration of war. But how much they actually mean all of it is another story

by Pedram Tue Aug 17, 2021 4:47 pm

Meh they are just trying to build legitimacy and gain international recognition, i wouldn't buy anything that comes out of their mouth right now.

by Nishankly Tue Aug 17, 2021 5:12 pm

Yeah that is obvious, no need to defend that Myeyes Laughing

by Myesyats Tue Aug 17, 2021 5:33 pm

Nishankly wrote:Yeah that is obvious, no need to defend that Myeyes

Well, out of respect to Afghan people I felt inclined to rephrase that even though to me and many others it's clearly obvious. In no way the situation in Kabul/Afghanistan is similar or close to here.

by Nishankly Tue Aug 17, 2021 5:36 pm

I replied since it is actually a very educational topic with topical questions. I'd love to hear about other countries but I guess not the right place.

by El Gunner Wed Aug 18, 2021 2:08 pm

https://twitter.com/wikileaks/status/1427929346262642688

by Myesyats Wed Aug 18, 2021 8:56 pm

That much is clear. Killing Bin laden wouldnt stop terrorism. Killing every taliban wouldnt stop terrorism. Its impossible. There has to be a change within, can't be enforced by violence, only breeds more violence. Besides wars were always about elites, money and power. Rarely about anything else,right?

by Nishankly Wed Aug 18, 2021 9:04 pm

Myesyats wrote:That much is clear. Killing Bin laden wouldnt stop terrorism. Killing every taliban wouldnt stop terrorism. Its impossible. There has to be a change within, can't be enforced by violence, only breeds more violence. Besides wars were always about elites, money and power. Rarely about anything else,right?

They are Tribals still living in the 1500s, you cannot help them unless you convince them religion is not the answer. The only reason this has been peaceful and women are being treated not as bad yet is because they know and are well aware of what the world will do them if they try anything dodgy and it makes out considering the human investment that had been put into removing them by the world.

by Myesyats Thu Aug 19, 2021 8:25 am

50 afghans are camping out on our belarusian border and we're refusing to even give them supplies bruh and barb wiring the border, the state of this country. Thats the famous love thy neighbor, catholic bs Taliban to Start Talks With U.S. and Afghan Government - Page 3 1f626

Taliban to Start Talks With U.S. and Afghan Government - Page 3 1f626

by Robespierre Thu Aug 19, 2021 10:01 am

A great collection of photos on how Afghanistan was in '40 , '60, '70, '80

Incredible....

The fashion magazine Vogue decided to publish in December 1969 an entire reportage entitled "Adventure in Afghanistan", which reports a fashion show in Kabul and all the most chic places in the city.

https://www.curioctopus.it/read/5946/sapete-com-e-l-afghanistan-oggi-ma-quando-vedrete-come-era-50-anni-fa-non-ci-crederete

by Found Thu Aug 19, 2021 2:20 pm

Interesting choice of picture media chooses. Not sure what % of the refugees look like that :whistle:

Taliban to Start Talks With U.S. and Afghan Government - Page 3 B3e9aa10

by VivaStPauli Thu Aug 19, 2021 7:58 pm

Found wrote:Interesting choice of picture media chooses. Not sure what % of the refugees look like that

What exactly do you mean by that?

by BarrileteCosmico Thu Aug 19, 2021 9:33 pm

He means that Sky used a white green eyed girl to purposefully generate more sympathy in their western audience and get more clicks on that article than if they had used a more stereo-typically middle-eastern looking girl, I assume.

by VivaStPauli Thu Aug 19, 2021 10:00 pm

That very famous Afghan refugee girl in that award-winning photograph was light-skinned and grey-eyed so I don't get what's the supposed problem.

by Myesyats Thu Aug 19, 2021 10:41 pm

definitely looks more Afghan than the other one, which is basically white it seems like

Taliban to Start Talks With U.S. and Afghan Government - Page 3 Sharbat_Gula

Taliban to Start Talks With U.S. and Afghan Government - Page 3 Sharbat_Gula

by BarrileteCosmico Thu Aug 19, 2021 11:00 pm

Yeah totally agreed, hence why I said stereotypically middle eastern. But I'm guessing that's what he meant.

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