JuvenelCuore wrote:

St_Nick09_of_Goal wrote:

JuvenelCuore wrote:RM are at least better than City who offered 150M for Buffon and 250M for Kaka...

...but in terms of feasible transfers, RM are the worst at inflating the market, but they have the capital to do so.

who did we pay over market again? bar the kaka disaster?

Kaka ? Cristiano Ronaldo ? Zidendine Zidane ? Jose Mourinho ? All shattered the records.

And you really have to stop making Ozil, Sahin, etc. seem like you did a good job budgeting...they were available at that price to everyone, they just so happened to choose Real Madrid. That is for the most part, exceptions include Marcelo and Ramos.

And name 1 that hasnt lived up to their performance...
Perhaps Kaka?

JuvenelCuore wrote:RM are at least better than City who offered 150M for Buffon and 250M for Kaka...

Provide the links or stop talking bollocks.

chemicalboy99 wrote:

JuvenelCuore wrote:RM are at least better than City who offered 150M for Buffon and 250M for Kaka...

Provide the links or stop talking bollocks.

Gianluigi Buffon: "I read about the money that Manchester City bid. I read €100 million (£90 million) for me and €150 million (£135 million) for Kaka and you think it can’t be real. It is like a fantasy world.

"There has always been big money in football, but if these guys are for real it is like nothing we have seen before, not even at Chelsea when they were crazy with money.

"You can’t build success just because of money. You look at Kaka and think, ‘okay, if he had gone maybe it would take three or four years for Manchester City to get in the Champions League. That would make him 30.’

"I read also about his wages but it does not matter. Do you think players like Kaka need the money? No, of course not. Manchester City will only attract players like that by winning trophies not by wages."

JuvenelCuore wrote:

chemicalboy99 wrote:

JuvenelCuore wrote:RM are at least better than City who offered 150M for Buffon and 250M for Kaka...

Provide the links or stop talking bollocks.

Gianluigi Buffon: "I read about the money that Manchester City bid. I read €100 million (£90 million) for me and €150 million (£135 million) for Kaka and you think it can’t be real. It is like a fantasy world.

"There has always been big money in football, but if these guys are for real it is like nothing we have seen before, not even at Chelsea when they were crazy with money.

"You can’t build success just because of money. You look at Kaka and think, ‘okay, if he had gone maybe it would take three or four years for Manchester City to get in the Champions League. That would make him 30.’

"I read also about his wages but it does not matter. Do you think players like Kaka need the money? No, of course not. Manchester City will only attract players like that by winning trophies not by wages."

If the source is Italian media it's fake. Had City offered 250m there is noway in hell R.M wouldn't accept it.

omarish wrote:

JuvenelCuore wrote:

chemicalboy99 wrote:

JuvenelCuore wrote:RM are at least better than City who offered 150M for Buffon and 250M for Kaka...

Provide the links or stop talking bollocks.

Gianluigi Buffon: "I read about the money that Manchester City bid. I read €100 million (£90 million) for me and €150 million (£135 million) for Kaka and you think it can’t be real. It is like a fantasy world.

"There has always been big money in football, but if these guys are for real it is like nothing we have seen before, not even at Chelsea when they were crazy with money.

"You can’t build success just because of money. You look at Kaka and think, ‘okay, if he had gone maybe it would take three or four years for Manchester City to get in the Champions League. That would make him 30.’

"I read also about his wages but it does not matter. Do you think players like Kaka need the money? No, of course not. Manchester City will only attract players like that by winning trophies not by wages."

If the source is Italian media it's fake. Had City offered 250m there is noway in hell R.M wouldn't accept it.

That was at the time when he was at Milan.

omarish wrote:

JuvenelCuore wrote:

chemicalboy99 wrote:

JuvenelCuore wrote:RM are at least better than City who offered 150M for Buffon and 250M for Kaka...

Provide the links or stop talking bollocks.

Gianluigi Buffon: "I read about the money that Manchester City bid. I read €100 million (£90 million) for me and €150 million (£135 million) for Kaka and you think it can’t be real. It is like a fantasy world.

"There has always been big money in football, but if these guys are for real it is like nothing we have seen before, not even at Chelsea when they were crazy with money.

"You can’t build success just because of money. You look at Kaka and think, ‘okay, if he had gone maybe it would take three or four years for Manchester City to get in the Champions League. That would make him 30.’

"I read also about his wages but it does not matter. Do you think players like Kaka need the money? No, of course not. Manchester City will only attract players like that by winning trophies not by wages."

If the source is Italian media it's fake. Had City offered 250m there is noway in hell R.M wouldn't accept it.

I believe City made a huge bid for Kaka when he still played for Milan, but he really didn't want to go, right?

omarish wrote:
If the source is Italian media it's fake. Had City offered 250m there is noway in hell R.M wouldn't accept it.

That happened when Kaka was still at AC Milan

JuvenelCuore wrote:

chemicalboy99 wrote:

JuvenelCuore wrote:RM are at least better than City who offered 150M for Buffon and 250M for Kaka...

Provide the links or stop talking bollocks.

Gianluigi Buffon: "I read about the money that Manchester City bid. I read €100 million (£90 million) for me and €150 million (£135 million) for Kaka and you think it can’t be real. It is like a fantasy world.

"There has always been big money in football, but if these guys are for real it is like nothing we have seen before, not even at Chelsea when they were crazy with money.

"You can’t build success just because of money. You look at Kaka and think, ‘okay, if he had gone maybe it would take three or four years for Manchester City to get in the Champions League. That would make him 30.’

"I read also about his wages but it does not matter. Do you think players like Kaka need the money? No, of course not. Manchester City will only attract players like that by winning trophies not by wages."

Brilliant so an article on Buffon talking about stuff he's read in newspapers equates to an actual bid in your world.

Interesting article never the less talking about champions league qualification and winning trophies...didn't take as long as Buffon thought did it.

As far as I know we only made a £100M bid for Kaka so you're only out by £150M on that score.

chemicalboy99 wrote:

JuvenelCuore wrote:

chemicalboy99 wrote:

JuvenelCuore wrote:RM are at least better than City who offered 150M for Buffon and 250M for Kaka...

Provide the links or stop talking bollocks.

Gianluigi Buffon: "I read about the money that Manchester City bid. I read €100 million (£90 million) for me and €150 million (£135 million) for Kaka and you think it can’t be real. It is like a fantasy world.

"There has always been big money in football, but if these guys are for real it is like nothing we have seen before, not even at Chelsea when they were crazy with money.

"You can’t build success just because of money. You look at Kaka and think, ‘okay, if he had gone maybe it would take three or four years for Manchester City to get in the Champions League. That would make him 30.’

"I read also about his wages but it does not matter. Do you think players like Kaka need the money? No, of course not. Manchester City will only attract players like that by winning trophies not by wages."

Brilliant so an article on Buffon talking about stuff he's read in newspapers equates to an actual bid in your world.

Interesting article never the less talking about champions league qualification and winning trophies...didn't take as long as Buffon thought did it.

As far as I know we only made a £100M bid for Kaka so you're only out by £150M on that score.

Really, out of mere curiosity, since when have you been a City fan?

Guiltybystander wrote:

chemicalboy99 wrote:

JuvenelCuore wrote:

chemicalboy99 wrote:

JuvenelCuore wrote:RM are at least better than City who offered 150M for Buffon and 250M for Kaka...

Provide the links or stop talking bollocks.

Gianluigi Buffon: "I read about the money that Manchester City bid. I read €100 million (£90 million) for me and €150 million (£135 million) for Kaka and you think it can’t be real. It is like a fantasy world.

"There has always been big money in football, but if these guys are for real it is like nothing we have seen before, not even at Chelsea when they were crazy with money.

"You can’t build success just because of money. You look at Kaka and think, ‘okay, if he had gone maybe it would take three or four years for Manchester City to get in the Champions League. That would make him 30.’

"I read also about his wages but it does not matter. Do you think players like Kaka need the money? No, of course not. Manchester City will only attract players like that by winning trophies not by wages."

Brilliant so an article on Buffon talking about stuff he's read in newspapers equates to an actual bid in your world.

Interesting article never the less talking about champions league qualification and winning trophies...didn't take as long as Buffon thought did it.

As far as I know we only made a £100M bid for Kaka so you're only out by £150M on that score.

Really, out of mere curiosity, since when have you been a City fan?

Long before the time i travelled to watch Manchester City play York City at Bootham Cresent in League 2.

chemicalboy99 wrote:

JuvenelCuore wrote:

chemicalboy99 wrote:

JuvenelCuore wrote:RM are at least better than City who offered 150M for Buffon and 250M for Kaka...

Provide the links or stop talking bollocks.

Gianluigi Buffon: "I read about the money that Manchester City bid. I read €100 million (£90 million) for me and €150 million (£135 million) for Kaka and you think it can’t be real. It is like a fantasy world.

"There has always been big money in football, but if these guys are for real it is like nothing we have seen before, not even at Chelsea when they were crazy with money.

"You can’t build success just because of money. You look at Kaka and think, ‘okay, if he had gone maybe it would take three or four years for Manchester City to get in the Champions League. That would make him 30.’

"I read also about his wages but it does not matter. Do you think players like Kaka need the money? No, of course not. Manchester City will only attract players like that by winning trophies not by wages."

Brilliant so an article on Buffon talking about stuff he's read in newspapers equates to an actual bid in your world.

Interesting article never the less talking about champions league qualification and winning trophies...didn't take as long as Buffon thought did it.

As far as I know we only made a £100M bid for Kaka so you're only out by £150M on that score.

I can find more sources, it was confirmed by our club's management as well as Buffon himself. Don't worry though, you've managed to produce quite the team of money grabbing whor--I mean, talented and passionate footballers.

Guiltybystander wrote:
Really, out of mere curiosity, since when have you been a City fan?

I think he has been a fan for over 20 years. Remember him saying this on the old forums.

Great sig Chemical, Kinkladze was mesmeric to watch.

izzy26 wrote:

Guiltybystander wrote:
Really, out of mere curiosity, since when have you been a City fan?

I think he has been a fan for over 20 years. Remember him saying this on the old forums.

Great sig Chemical, Kinkladze was mesmeric to watch.

About the amount of time I've been watching Juve.

First time I remember watching a game on the TV, I'm pretty sure I was 4.

JuvenelCuore wrote:

chemicalboy99 wrote:

JuvenelCuore wrote:

chemicalboy99 wrote:

JuvenelCuore wrote:RM are at least better than City who offered 150M for Buffon and 250M for Kaka...

Provide the links or stop talking bollocks.

Gianluigi Buffon: "I read about the money that Manchester City bid. I read €100 million (£90 million) for me and €150 million (£135 million) for Kaka and you think it can’t be real. It is like a fantasy world.

"There has always been big money in football, but if these guys are for real it is like nothing we have seen before, not even at Chelsea when they were crazy with money.

"You can’t build success just because of money. You look at Kaka and think, ‘okay, if he had gone maybe it would take three or four years for Manchester City to get in the Champions League. That would make him 30.’

"I read also about his wages but it does not matter. Do you think players like Kaka need the money? No, of course not. Manchester City will only attract players like that by winning trophies not by wages."

Brilliant so an article on Buffon talking about stuff he's read in newspapers equates to an actual bid in your world.

Interesting article never the less talking about champions league qualification and winning trophies...didn't take as long as Buffon thought did it.

As far as I know we only made a £100M bid for Kaka so you're only out by £150M on that score.

I can find more sources, it was confirmed by our club's management as well as Buffon himself. Don't worry though, you've managed to produce quite the team of money grabbing whor--I mean, talented and passionate footballers.

Cheers....you can watch them in the champions league.

Omarish ...

chemicalboy99 wrote:

JuvenelCuore wrote:

chemicalboy99 wrote:

JuvenelCuore wrote:

chemicalboy99 wrote:

JuvenelCuore wrote:RM are at least better than City who offered 150M for Buffon and 250M for Kaka...

Provide the links or stop talking bollocks.

Gianluigi Buffon: "I read about the money that Manchester City bid. I read €100 million (£90 million) for me and €150 million (£135 million) for Kaka and you think it can’t be real. It is like a fantasy world.

"There has always been big money in football, but if these guys are for real it is like nothing we have seen before, not even at Chelsea when they were crazy with money.

"You can’t build success just because of money. You look at Kaka and think, ‘okay, if he had gone maybe it would take three or four years for Manchester City to get in the Champions League. That would make him 30.’

"I read also about his wages but it does not matter. Do you think players like Kaka need the money? No, of course not. Manchester City will only attract players like that by winning trophies not by wages."

Brilliant so an article on Buffon talking about stuff he's read in newspapers equates to an actual bid in your world.

Interesting article never the less talking about champions league qualification and winning trophies...didn't take as long as Buffon thought did it.

As far as I know we only made a £100M bid for Kaka so you're only out by £150M on that score.

I can find more sources, it was confirmed by our club's management as well as Buffon himself. Don't worry though, you've managed to produce quite the team of money grabbing whor--I mean, talented and passionate footballers.

Cheers....you can watch them in the champions league.

You should come back when you're the best team in Manchester...or when you win a league title; 1936–37, 1967–68 were some GREAT years !

Ask your grandparents about it and tell me what they say. I'll go back to seeing my country win a World Cup, witnessing Ballon d'Ors being handed out, CL being won (emphasis on WON), and being the most successful domestic team in Italy.

izzy26 wrote:

Guiltybystander wrote:
Really, out of mere curiosity, since when have you been a City fan?

I think he has been a fan for over 20 years. Remember him saying this on the old forums.

Great sig Chemical, Kinkladze was mesmeric to watch.

He ruined himself by staying loyal to us. He should have left after the first season.

The reason we didn't get relegated until the final day in 96 was down to Kinkladze.

ynwa wrote:Rich mans United.

They make sure they sign the players they need (well... want) instead of losing them to another club.

You lot are getting rejected by absolutely everybody right now. And are having to resort into paying over the odds in order to get who u want.

The nerve of this LFC fan...

JuvenelCuore wrote:

chemicalboy99 wrote:

JuvenelCuore wrote:

chemicalboy99 wrote:

JuvenelCuore wrote:

chemicalboy99 wrote:

JuvenelCuore wrote:RM are at least better than City who offered 150M for Buffon and 250M for Kaka...

Provide the links or stop talking bollocks.

Gianluigi Buffon: "I read about the money that Manchester City bid. I read €100 million (£90 million) for me and €150 million (£135 million) for Kaka and you think it can’t be real. It is like a fantasy world.

"There has always been big money in football, but if these guys are for real it is like nothing we have seen before, not even at Chelsea when they were crazy with money.

"You can’t build success just because of money. You look at Kaka and think, ‘okay, if he had gone maybe it would take three or four years for Manchester City to get in the Champions League. That would make him 30.’

"I read also about his wages but it does not matter. Do you think players like Kaka need the money? No, of course not. Manchester City will only attract players like that by winning trophies not by wages."

Brilliant so an article on Buffon talking about stuff he's read in newspapers equates to an actual bid in your world.

Interesting article never the less talking about champions league qualification and winning trophies...didn't take as long as Buffon thought did it.

As far as I know we only made a £100M bid for Kaka so you're only out by £150M on that score.

I can find more sources, it was confirmed by our club's management as well as Buffon himself. Don't worry though, you've managed to produce quite the team of money grabbing whor--I mean, talented and passionate footballers.

Cheers....you can watch them in the champions league.

You should come back when you're the best team in Manchester...or when you win a league title; 1936–37, 1967–68 were some GREAT years !

Ask your grandparents about it and tell me what they say. I'll go back to seeing my country win a World Cup, witnessing Ballon d'Ors being handed out, CL being won (emphasis on WON), and being the most successful domestic team in Italy.

Good for you.

It's important to think back to the good times when there's nothing happening in the present.

chemicalboy99 wrote:

Guiltybystander wrote:

chemicalboy99 wrote:

JuvenelCuore wrote:

chemicalboy99 wrote:

JuvenelCuore wrote:RM are at least better than City who offered 150M for Buffon and 250M for Kaka...

Provide the links or stop talking bollocks.

Gianluigi Buffon: "I read about the money that Manchester City bid. I read €100 million (£90 million) for me and €150 million (£135 million) for Kaka and you think it can’t be real. It is like a fantasy world.

"There has always been big money in football, but if these guys are for real it is like nothing we have seen before, not even at Chelsea when they were crazy with money.

"You can’t build success just because of money. You look at Kaka and think, ‘okay, if he had gone maybe it would take three or four years for Manchester City to get in the Champions League. That would make him 30.’

"I read also about his wages but it does not matter. Do you think players like Kaka need the money? No, of course not. Manchester City will only attract players like that by winning trophies not by wages."

Brilliant so an article on Buffon talking about stuff he's read in newspapers equates to an actual bid in your world.

Interesting article never the less talking about champions league qualification and winning trophies...didn't take as long as Buffon thought did it.

As far as I know we only made a £100M bid for Kaka so you're only out by £150M on that score.

Really, out of mere curiosity, since when have you been a City fan?

Long before the time i travelled to watch Manchester City play York City at Bootham Cresent in League 2.

Okay, that is cool, because I've been trying to find a City-fan before the Sheik-era (I already thought you were so). I was wondering how you feel about it, because to me, City was always one of those true english clubs still, with lots of local following. That has been knocked down quite rapidly imo, and I was wondering how most fans since the first hour feel about the new perception of their club (the whole plastic idea).

I talked to a man who worked in the City once, who still wore a Cardiff shirt under his suits every day, and many of his colleagues (some investment bank) still did the same; they would never switch to, say, Chelsea or Arsenal.

Sorry, not phrased that well, but I have this very romantic idea of many British clubs in post-industrial cities, and this whole switch to foreign ownership to me just takes away the heart of local football.

chemicalboy99 wrote:

JuvenelCuore wrote:

chemicalboy99 wrote:

JuvenelCuore wrote:

chemicalboy99 wrote:

JuvenelCuore wrote:

chemicalboy99 wrote:

JuvenelCuore wrote:RM are at least better than City who offered 150M for Buffon and 250M for Kaka...

Provide the links or stop talking bollocks.

Gianluigi Buffon: "I read about the money that Manchester City bid. I read €100 million (£90 million) for me and €150 million (£135 million) for Kaka and you think it can’t be real. It is like a fantasy world.

"There has always been big money in football, but if these guys are for real it is like nothing we have seen before, not even at Chelsea when they were crazy with money.

"You can’t build success just because of money. You look at Kaka and think, ‘okay, if he had gone maybe it would take three or four years for Manchester City to get in the Champions League. That would make him 30.’

"I read also about his wages but it does not matter. Do you think players like Kaka need the money? No, of course not. Manchester City will only attract players like that by winning trophies not by wages."

Brilliant so an article on Buffon talking about stuff he's read in newspapers equates to an actual bid in your world.

Interesting article never the less talking about champions league qualification and winning trophies...didn't take as long as Buffon thought did it.

As far as I know we only made a £100M bid for Kaka so you're only out by £150M on that score.

I can find more sources, it was confirmed by our club's management as well as Buffon himself. Don't worry though, you've managed to produce quite the team of money grabbing whor--I mean, talented and passionate footballers.

Cheers....you can watch them in the champions league.

You should come back when you're the best team in Manchester...or when you win a league title; 1936–37, 1967–68 were some GREAT years !

Ask your grandparents about it and tell me what they say. I'll go back to seeing my country win a World Cup, witnessing Ballon d'Ors being handed out, CL being won (emphasis on WON), and being the most successful domestic team in Italy.

Good for you.

It's important to think back to the good times when there's nothing happening in the present.

Yeah well that's what happens when a team has adversity...we don't throw money at players to make up for a poor club structure, the fact your stadium was initially funded by taxpayers, or the fact you've made some of the worst transfers to date and are a laughing stock.

So, what do you City lot do when there's nothing happening in the present and nothing happened in the past ?

Uff, that has to hurt. Tobad for Man City, they were not even able to beat us twice this season.

Highly doubt with all the money they've been spending they will actually be able to win anything.

Devil-Is-Red wrote:
You lot are getting rejected by absolutely everybody right now. And are having to resort into paying over the odds in order to get who u want.

The nerve of this LFC fan...

Heard about the 15m rejection of the Downing deal, huh?
Also, don't really thik they were trying to get Savic aswell, just some sky sports bs.

@chemical, it'sssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssss TAG-TEAM TIME!!!!!!!

JuvenelCuore wrote:

chemicalboy99 wrote:

JuvenelCuore wrote:

chemicalboy99 wrote:

JuvenelCuore wrote:

chemicalboy99 wrote:

JuvenelCuore wrote:

chemicalboy99 wrote:

JuvenelCuore wrote:RM are at least better than City who offered 150M for Buffon and 250M for Kaka...

Provide the links or stop talking bollocks.

Gianluigi Buffon: "I read about the money that Manchester City bid. I read €100 million (£90 million) for me and €150 million (£135 million) for Kaka and you think it can’t be real. It is like a fantasy world.

"There has always been big money in football, but if these guys are for real it is like nothing we have seen before, not even at Chelsea when they were crazy with money.

"You can’t build success just because of money. You look at Kaka and think, ‘okay, if he had gone maybe it would take three or four years for Manchester City to get in the Champions League. That would make him 30.’

"I read also about his wages but it does not matter. Do you think players like Kaka need the money? No, of course not. Manchester City will only attract players like that by winning trophies not by wages."

Brilliant so an article on Buffon talking about stuff he's read in newspapers equates to an actual bid in your world.

Interesting article never the less talking about champions league qualification and winning trophies...didn't take as long as Buffon thought did it.

As far as I know we only made a £100M bid for Kaka so you're only out by £150M on that score.

I can find more sources, it was confirmed by our club's management as well as Buffon himself. Don't worry though, you've managed to produce quite the team of money grabbing whor--I mean, talented and passionate footballers.

Cheers....you can watch them in the champions league.

You should come back when you're the best team in Manchester...or when you win a league title; 1936–37, 1967–68 were some GREAT years !

Ask your grandparents about it and tell me what they say. I'll go back to seeing my country win a World Cup, witnessing Ballon d'Ors being handed out, CL being won (emphasis on WON), and being the most successful domestic team in Italy.

Good for you.

It's important to think back to the good times when there's nothing happening in the present.

Yeah well that's what happens when a team has adversity...we don't throw money at players to make up for a poor club structure, the fact your stadium was initially funded by taxpayers, or the fact you've made some of the worst transfers to date and are a laughing stock.

So, what do you City lot do when there's nothing happening in the present and nothing happened in the past ?

We were getting 48,000 crowds and we hadn't won anything in 35 years.

chemicalboy99 wrote:

JuvenelCuore wrote:

chemicalboy99 wrote:

JuvenelCuore wrote:

chemicalboy99 wrote:

JuvenelCuore wrote:

chemicalboy99 wrote:

JuvenelCuore wrote:

chemicalboy99 wrote:

JuvenelCuore wrote:RM are at least better than City who offered 150M for Buffon and 250M for Kaka...

Provide the links or stop talking bollocks.

Gianluigi Buffon: "I read about the money that Manchester City bid. I read €100 million (£90 million) for me and €150 million (£135 million) for Kaka and you think it can’t be real. It is like a fantasy world.

"There has always been big money in football, but if these guys are for real it is like nothing we have seen before, not even at Chelsea when they were crazy with money.

"You can’t build success just because of money. You look at Kaka and think, ‘okay, if he had gone maybe it would take three or four years for Manchester City to get in the Champions League. That would make him 30.’

"I read also about his wages but it does not matter. Do you think players like Kaka need the money? No, of course not. Manchester City will only attract players like that by winning trophies not by wages."

Brilliant so an article on Buffon talking about stuff he's read in newspapers equates to an actual bid in your world.

Interesting article never the less talking about champions league qualification and winning trophies...didn't take as long as Buffon thought did it.

As far as I know we only made a £100M bid for Kaka so you're only out by £150M on that score.

I can find more sources, it was confirmed by our club's management as well as Buffon himself. Don't worry though, you've managed to produce quite the team of money grabbing whor--I mean, talented and passionate footballers.

Cheers....you can watch them in the champions league.

You should come back when you're the best team in Manchester...or when you win a league title; 1936–37, 1967–68 were some GREAT years !

Ask your grandparents about it and tell me what they say. I'll go back to seeing my country win a World Cup, witnessing Ballon d'Ors being handed out, CL being won (emphasis on WON), and being the most successful domestic team in Italy.

Good for you.

It's important to think back to the good times when there's nothing happening in the present.

Yeah well that's what happens when a team has adversity...we don't throw money at players to make up for a poor club structure, the fact your stadium was initially funded by taxpayers, or the fact you've made some of the worst transfers to date and are a laughing stock.

So, what do you City lot do when there's nothing happening in the present and nothing happened in the past ?

We were getting 48,000 crowds and we hadn't won anything in 35 years.

So what's that prove ? You have a lot of bandwagoners ? Cool. Nice club.

You ignore my question, ChemicalBoy

It was a genuine question, and no subtle bash of City!