Awful first half from us. We took one shot and that was just out of shite desperation. Rodgers got his team wrong in the first half I'm afraid. Hendo should've started this game. We got completely dominated in the middle. Sterling and Clowning were both useless like always. Would like to see both Fabio and Sturridge come in.

Well, it was always going to be difficult.

Very poor first hour from us and overall we just didn't produce enough moments of quality.

Sturridge was our best player after coming on and Allen the worst, imo.

Sterling and Allen were just as bad as each other. Reina is killing me man, he can't save anything ffs, every shot looks to be going in. Rodgers was to be blamed for his team selection.

Borini and Sturrridge came on and give us some much needed quality we've been missing for awhile now.

How can you blame BR when borini just came back from injury and DS has only played 60 mins. No one was complaining about the lineup untill you realised it didnt work. Blame sterling for being in effective.


Thoughts on the below?

It would be very easy to write this game off as a complete failure given we were unable to come away with anything. However I think that might just be selling our performance short. Of course there were plenty of things to criticize, and I’m certainly not suggesting we ignore those. However, in order to provide counterpoint to the imminent wave of negative comments in the media and Twitter, I think it’s worth pointing out a few positives from the match.

Let’s start with the negatives or as I like to call it: The First 45 Minutes. While we did a relatively good job of stemming their attack and controlling the ball, we did practically nothing in the final third. Suarez was isolated for long stretches of play as we received no joy trying to advance the ball through the middle. Part of his isolation was due to poor play in midfield. Allen will receive much of the blame for this, and it would not be wholly unjustified. He was careless at times, failed to link the two phases of play, and didn’t press with any effectiveness in the United half. Gerrard’s role appeared to remain unchanged from the last few matches, allowing him to drop deeper or push forward as necessary. While he didn’t look quite sharp enough, it was Allen’s role that appeared a particularly strange choice. He appeared to be the more advanced midfielder, but dropped deeper at times and (as mentioned before) failed to press the United defense when they gained possession. This is in stark contrast to Henderson’s role in the past few matches. It’s debatable whether this was by design or was simply poor execution of the role by Allen. It’s possible that Rodgers picked Allen due to his defensive successes early in the season and his much-vaunted pass completion percentage. In theory, it would seem a good strategy, as we obviously set out to keep the game under control in the open stages and push on in the second half.

As a result of the poor performance by the midfield three as a unit (I actually thought Lucas was very good, and was likely only substituted to avoid a second yellow), most all of our attacks came up the sides. Unfortunately, we still didn’t look like much of a threat there either. Sterling often looked his age against the far more physically developed ManU backline. On the other side, Downing was often dropping so deep that he was running against the winger, the fullback, and sometimes even one of Cleverly or Carrick as they had time to get back to help. This meant Suareaz was dropping deep or drifting wide in order to receive the ball, removing our only real attacking threat for much of the first half. This was somewhat predictable due to the lineup, but I’m sure Rodgers would be disappointed with his own midfield selection, and their inability to keep the ball or win it high up the pitch.

The fact that we went in at half-time down only a single goal is a testament to our resilience. In all honesty, this was a victory for the squad. With Suarez so isolated, Downing playing so deep, and Sterling never looking like holding up against the United defense, it would’ve taken a moment of brilliance for us to score. In truth, we could have defended better on the goal. Evra had far too much space, and Van Persie looked to slip between Skrtel and Agger for a clear look on goal.

Half-time changed everything. Sturridge came on for Lucas (again, I don’t think this was a preference for Allen, but a preference for two midfielders without a booking) and the whole set-up changed. I was actually quite shocked to see us shift to a true 4-2-3-1 with Suarez dropping into the hole. In all honesty this wasn’t as dramatic a shift as the commentators suggested considering his first-half movement. We were immediately able to control the ball better in midfield as Gerrard and Allen had a dedicated outlet between the United midfield and defense. Sturridge’s movement was also very effective in creating space for Suarez and others. Had it not been for a strange deflection on Evra’s header, we might have been level on 57 minutes, when Sturridge got on the end of a rebound. This is precisely the type of benefit having Sturridge in the side. He’s far more of a #9 than Suarez in his positioning and movement, and it showed here as he pounced on a ball spilled by De Gea.

After bringing on Borini for Sterling, we actually looked the more likely side to score the 4th goal of the match. All of a sudden we went from having 1 striker on the pitch to having 3. More importantly, the interchange and movement between them showed signs of being absolutely deadly in the future. As it was, there were several very good moments. Unfortunately, those moments were capped with a poor finish (understandable as the chances fell to two strikers who have rarely played over the last few months) and resulted in us being held us to a single goal. For what it’s worth, Sturridge looked about as unselfish as you want from a lone striker. In fact, one of his fact acts was to eschew a very good shooting opportunity in favor of finding Suarez in the box. (In hindsight, he SHOULD HAVE taken the shot.) Borini looked to still be finding his touch, and his changes of direction were not nearly as crisp as when he was in form at Roma. That’s not totally unexpected, considering that he was never expected to be fit for this game and was likely just short of real match fitness and sharpness.

I know that everyone will say we got it all wrong in the first half, and they wouldn’t be wrong. We certainly had next to no attacking threat. Then again, you have to assume that team wasn’t selected to win the game. That team was selected to keep the game manageable. We were always going to make changes in the second half. The question was if we could keep the game within reach until then. To be fair, while our play was uninspired, the team did its job for the most part. Too much space afforded to Evra cost us parity at half-time. From that point on, we played United to a draw. The tactical changes worked as intended, and it could even be argued that we won the second half. If not for another bit of poor marking on a set piece (and the deflection…), we could’ve had the draw. That’s strange to say considering our utter lack of attacking thrust in the first half. In all, I would say this is something of a mixed bag. We lost to United; that hurst quite a bit. We were also very poor in the first half; that has to taint the overall evaluation. However, the second half had many more signs of encouragement, and if not for several breaks for United, we could’ve taken a point.

My take on the proceedings: it was disappointing on the day, but it was obviously not our strongest set-up from the start. I’m looking forward to seeing our team at full strength as we obviously have far more attacking options than we have for a long time. Thanks to other results around the league, I don’t believe we’ve slipped any further behind the pace, either. For me, I see this as the team finally beginning to take shape. I really think that the largely negative, knee-jerk reactions are rather unwarranted. I understand it’s an emotional loss, but it’s far from the end of the world.

Time to roll on Norwich!

YNWA

Messiah "Aggerswagger" wrote:Sterling and Allen were just as bad as each other. Reina is killing me man, he can't save anything ffs, every shot looks to be going in. Rodgers was to be blamed for his team selection.

Borini and Sturrridge came on and give us some much needed quality we've been missing for awhile now.

BTW, watch the slow-mo replay. Evra's shot took a deflection off of Vidic's head. It may well be ruled Vidic's goal. Evra may have actually been heading it back across the net. In light of that, it's far easier to see how Reina misjudged it. I actually thought he did very well today. Not at fault for the first and VERY brave to take on Kagawa (who didn't really look to go after the ball... perhaps a result of the slow-mo replay there).

Yeah, Reina did what he could today. They created enough chances to score a couple of goals, we would have been lucky to concede less.

I didn't think Sterling was bad. He didn't do stupid stuff with the ball, earned a few free-kicks for us. Never threatened in any way, but was okay, imo.

The fact that we looked much better when Sturridge came on suggests to me we should change the 4-3-3 to 4-4-2 or 4-4-1-1. The moment Sturridge was up there with Suarez we had much easier time getting the ball up and Suarez wasn't always facing away from goal upon receiving the ball.

Also playing a three-man midfield of Gerrard, Lucas and Allen is a no-go for me. Gerrard likes to drop deep to get the ball, Lucas usually stays back as well and Allen just has been poor for at least a couple of months now and can't find good forward passes to save his life. The result is that we are unable to control the middle of the park or pass the ball up through the middle. There's just no one in between the midfield three and Suarez - or at least not with enough skill to operate there - - and especially when Gerrard comes deep. Downing and Sterling are no Robben and Ribery, so it's no good using the flanks all the time, either.

Yes, there are positives to take from this match but lets look at what went wrong.

This game literally was a reply of last year's game at OT where we woke up past in the 60th minute onwards. The starting tactics were a sign of pressure and little risk.

As I predicted after my preferred line-up Rodger's went with his incredibly predictable and ineffective line-up. Here were the tactical mistakes.

-Joe Allen will NEVER EVER produce well enough alongside Gerrard given the midfield is built around Gerrard's free role while Allen is the type of player who needs it centred around him. Its highly ineffective to start both of them beside each other given their similarity of roles. How Henderson didn't start was beyond me. Right when Henderson came on it worked wonders as Hendo stayed deep, kept his discipline and kept it ticking. Allen's off form isn't just to blame as tactically he will not fit here.

-Starting Downing. Just like last year at OT Downing had the most gutless performance coming from a player, it didn't help that Wisdom was incredibly ineffective down the right yet starting Downing when we know that he has a pussy mentality and cannot perform against the big boys was absolute suicide.

-Starting Sterling. For weeks Messia, Nish and I have called for this kid to be benched given that he holds the ball to long, doesn't know where and when to move and just isn't doing anything. Teams were devastated by him in the beginning but not that they have studied his predictability and repertoire they know exactly how to cut off his channels and his play. He is too young, too raw and needs to be benched for an impact role at best.

-Wisdom. Not blaming Rodger's for starting him given that he had little options but Andre disappointed the hell out of me. Why? For a guy who was said to continually persuade BR to start this match he flopped. He was completely at fault for the first goal. In a derby where you never back down, shy away and put your body in line, Wisdom who is the largest guy in our squad completely hide against the cross from Evra which literally made me sick. If he had the balls to hide away from a plastic ball or at least tackled rather than cover his face he wouldn't have let Skrtel and Agger open for a RvP tap-in. Aside from that he was solid in defence but hardly tested by Kagawa and offered little to nothing in attack, and even completely flopped on his chance when presented with a shot. I know he is 19 and all but youth has to stop being an excuse to let off youngster for making the same mistakes week in week out. I have faith he will turn good for us but I was far more impressed with the ostracized Flanagan then this guy.

-Just the mentality on a whole was pathetic. Yes we defensively kept well in the first half yet its not that hard to do that when most of your players are behind the ball looking to lock out the play rather than create chances. For a midfield based possession philosophy side vs a side with a rather unimpressive midfield it was sickening to watch us with no gameplan when we couldn't even hold possession in the first half. Completely and utterly outplayed in the first.

-2nd Half was decent yet United lost their composure and if anything let us into the game by their decreasing pressing, and pushing from out wide.

-4-4-1-1 was an impressive chance yet doesn't anyone find it disappointing to see us performing better with formations and set-ups which go against Rodger's philosophy? It rather shows that his tactical set-ups of possession only work vs weaker teams. His mistakes continued when he subbed off Lucas instead of Allen. The positive from that side was it gave Allen more space to hold the ball and pass as its an indication that he will thrive with team mates who differ from his roles. Henderson was brought on far too late, Sterling was subbed off too late and the fact that Downing played a 90 mins let alone started shows that Rodger's is rather inconsistent when it comes to subs.

-It didn't help that we couldn't penetrate even when United were slowing down the off set pressure on us as we lacked any sort of penetration and could give Suarez little service.

Here a the positives:

-Johnson had a good game. Before I praise him he should have at least marked Evra yet this doesn't surprise me given that Johnson turns off at the most crucial of times. Aside from that he was solid (if not wasteful at times) in attack and held his own unlike his raw partner on the right. It makes me wonder how much damage we could have done yet injuries is little excuse given that they have missed Rooney, Evans and too an extent Nani.

-Gerrard shows once again how important he is to us. Single only player in the midfield who produced something and held his own vs United. How kept mobile and ticking passes all over for the midfield was a joy to watch as if not for him it could definitely have been worse. So proud that our captain never backed down to the opposition. Well and truly back in form.

-Skrtel and Agger. Perfect performance. Well disciplined, read the game well, and aside from the goal completely thwarted RvP. Very proud of them especially Agger. Along with Stevie G, Agger was our MOTM.

-Showing that the combination of Sturridge-Borini-Suarez has far far more potential than Sterling-Suarez-Downing. Our midfield wasn't creating anything in the 2nd yet what caused United so much trouble was the sheer movement, intelligent work of the channels and interchanging between all 3. Suarez finally had someone to combine with unlike Downing and Sterling. Borini did fairly well coming on with his simple link up, knowing when to drop deep, and moving along with flank down centrally which aided Sturridge and Suarez. Sturridge should have started as his dangerous play was a clear indication. We needed his cocksure and confident attitude. While he was wasteful on two occasions, his movement and link-up play made a difference. Don't forget that his excellent instinct to clinch the goal was a sign that he can definitely poach goals for us which we have been lacking.

-All in all it was quite disappointing from us despite the obvious positives yet a second loss in a row to United was highly disappointing. Yes the 2nd goal was marginally offside yet it doesn't excuse our defence from turning off when it comes to matter. We just didn't show anything on a tactical level to test United aside from a few lapses from their team and some creation on our part. Its quite obvious that Allen, Downing, and Sterling need to be benched as Allen will not fit into this set-up for obvious reasons while Downing and Sterling just aren't good enough vs the better teams. Suarez-Borini and Sturridge is the way to go as they can make up for the lack of creativity coming from our midfield.

What worries me is that we haven't beaten a SINGLE team in the current top 10 which is why I took our wins vs QPR and Sunderland with a pinch of salt. We just don't seem good enough to beat the better teams as for all Rodger's talent he needs to show more shrewd tactical preparation and in game composure to turn it on the oppositions head.

We will play Norwich at Anfield as although a win would excite me it will be until Arsenal where we can finally revel in a win that measures what we can do post 2nd half of the season.

-Wisdom.

Harsh on him, dude. The lad didn't even have a wikipedia page before his debut for us against Young Boys. For his first game at Old Trafford, he did all right.

-4-4-1-1 was an impressive chance yet doesn't anyone find it disappointing to see us performing better with formations and set-ups which go against Rodger's philosophy? It rather shows that his tactical set-ups of possession only work vs weaker teams.

Yeah. The 4-3-3 didn't work at all in this match and it wasn't the first time. When we tried to play through the middle, Suarez had to come deep to receive the ball and, like I said earlier, with has back to goal and support nowhere to be seen. The term "wing-forward" sounds fancy and very attacking, but good opponents like United usually don't have that much trouble dealing with Downing and Sterling, especially when our attacks are faltering in the first place.

4-4-1-1 - or Sturridge coming on and simply doing some different movement than the other guys - really helped us in attack. We looked much more balanced and more capable of actually having some controlled possession in attack as well. So personally I'd play both 4-4-1-1 and 4-3-3 in the future.

-Johnson had a good game.

Really? He let's the towering Evra win a header unchallenged and in attack seemed to have trouble accepting that it's quite hard to get past Rafael and especially Valencia. This was one of Johnson's poorer performances this season, imo.

What worries me is that we haven't beaten a SINGLE team in the current top 10

Yeah, it's a little depressing. But playing United away hardly relates to that stat, it's such a difficult place to visit. We will play Arsenal away, Manc City away and West Brom home between 30 Jan - 11 Feb. One win out of those three is a minimum requirement, but shouldn't be impossible to get two wins.

mr-r34 wrote:How can you blame BR when borini just came back from injury and DS has only played 60 mins. No one was complaining about the lineup untill you realised it didnt work. Blame sterling for being in effective.

This is my comments before the match.

Messiah "Aggerswagger" wrote:Tbh completely honest with you I would much rather see Downing over Sterling on current form. Sterling hasn't shown anything to suggest his early season form recently and Stewie has been actually playing like an actual footballer ffs.

And in the chat throughout the week I was calling for Henderson to start over Allen as I had kind of guessed without Jordan we would get stream-rolled in midfield (and we did).

So as you can see, I had predicted which players would be completely ineffective, and as it turns out I was correct. Now If I can sit in front of my laptop at home and predict this correctly don't you think Rodgers should do the same since he's working with these guys 24/7. Even you know that Rodgers' blame is not unwarranted, he f*cked up with his team selection in the first half (as he's done quite a few times this season), and that's all there is to it.

Arq:

Regarding the lineup:
It obviously didn’t work in the final third. That’s because we only played with a single goal threat IN THE ENTIRE TEAM. Like I said, this was all about managing the match and not letting RVP, Welbeck and Kagawa run rampant in the opening stages of the match. Even so, the fact that we didn’t even threaten was disappointing. Ideally, we could’ve managed a slow build-up and created a few chances once we had fully transitioned into the attacking phase, i.e. allowing Johnson, Wisdom, Gerrard and Allen the time to get forward in support of Suarez. Due to the poor play in midfield, that didn’t happen. The result for us was always going to be dependent on substitutes.

Regarding Allen
To me it seems like he was bough under the impression that Gerrard would be the #10 in the midfield three. However, with Gerrard solidifying himself in that deep-distributor role, Allen has nowhere to fit in (much the same reason Sahin is no longer at the club). Because of this, I do think Henderson would’ve been the better choice. However, I think Allen’s selection was part of the controlled start concept above. The idea was most likely that Allen would control possession and give us the better chance to keep the ball in the middle. Unfortunately, he had a howler in the first half and did the opposite on several occasions. Whether or not he can effectively partner Gerrard in the middle… I don’t know. He’ll certainly have to adapt or at least play better than he did today. He honestly looks to have lost quite a bit of confidence in his own play. A confident Allen may have been able to effectively retain and win possession today. The unfortunate reality is that he’s dreadfully out of form, meaning Hendo would have been the better choice on the day.

Sterling:
You’re right. He has been ineffective recently and needs the rest and the impact role. The only problem is who takes that spot. Sturridge wasn’t ready to play 90 mins yet, and neither was Borini. Suso would’ve been just as out of his depth, if not more so, than Sterling. Enrique’s out. Shelvey hasn’t contributed when played on the wing. So, you’re right, but there wasn’t a better option. I could’ve see Henderson being selected, but Sterling has better positional discipline on the wing, would theoretically provide the better outlet to stretch a defense more, and possesses the ability to make something happen every now and then. Of course, hindsight is 20/20, and looking back Sterling was out of his depth.
@Messiah: You were right about Sterling being ineffective. However, I can also see that a ticking bomb is going to explode. That doesn’t mean I know how to disarm it. I somehow doubt that Henderson, Shelvey, Suso, etc. would’ve been much more effective on the wing with the way the midfield was playing. I would also point out that you picked a player (Sturridge) that was not fully match-fit, meaning your selection is invalid. You assumed there was a choice between Sterling and Downing, when the choice was actually Sterling, Suso, Shelvey and Hendo. Rodgers picked the only natural winger and the only player with real pace available from the start… What an arse. Let’s take him out back and crucify him for that decision.

2nd Half was decent yet United lost their composure and if anything let us into the game by their decreasing pressing, and pushing from out wide.

To me, this seemed a reaction (or lack thereof) to our changes at the half. With Sturridge stretching the defense at the back and Suarez dropping into the space between the lines, we had more room in midfield, an added outlet in the attacking third, and an added goal threat. They coped with this change by bringing on Phil Jones for Kagawa. However, by that time Borini was on for us and the movement and interchange still caused problems. If we’re going to criticize Rodgers for his mistakes, let’s also praise him for his corrections. I thought he effectively solved the problems with the set-up and gradually fixed the selection mistakes/deficiencies as best he could.

4-4-1-1 was an impressive chance yet doesn't anyone find it disappointing to see us performing better with formations and set-ups which go against Rodger's philosophy?

The system change was impressive, but I disagree that it was a 4-4-1-1 (nit-picking, I know) and that it goes against Rodgers’s Philosophy.
- First of all, it was a lopsided 4-2-3-1. Allen and Gerrard were sitting deep to control the play Borini was pushing forward and central to get out of Glenjo’s way and interchange with the other strikers. Downing, though admittedly in a deeper position than Borini, still pushed forward and cut in switch with Suarez several times. I don’t believe we ever lined up in a typical “2 banks of 4” formation that I learned to hate under Hodgson. To say it was a 4-4-anything, seems to me to sell the tactics a bit short and misrepresent what we were actually doing. I know, I know… I’m nit-picking. I apologize for being a little pedantic, but I do think it makes a difference.
- I also don’t see how this goes against his “philosophy”. I thought the team played a very nice pass-and-move, short-passing, ground-game even after the transition. The formation still works to get players in all of his 8 (I believe?) zones on the pitch, it still spreads the defense well to create space, the fullbacks were still called upon to provide width, and the interchanging fluid movement he espouses was actually better after the change (though it is likely a result more of personnel than positioning). To be honest, this may be closer to what he was playing at the end of the season last year with Swansea in an attempt to get the most out of Glyfi Sigurdsson. Suarez was drifting a little further forward in this case, but that could be due to his pressing and I could actually hear (on TV) Rodgers calling him deeper at times.

What worries me is that we haven't beaten a SINGLE team in the current top 10 which is why I took our wins vs QPR and Sunderland with a pinch of salt.

Yes, this is worrying, but like Art said, United away was never likely to break that trend. We have several opportunities coming up to do so, and we’ve improved our play since the last time we faced several of these teams. I’ll be worried if we don’t beat any team in the top ten at the end of the season. For now, I’m going to continue enjoying any 3-points we can gain. (That’s not to say I think we’re going to win the league after every bottom-feeder we thump.)

Unfortunately I could not see the match but after reading all your comments, feeling really sad that we didnt perform well. For me only one important thing is whether we are really improving through every match. We are run by a manager for whom it is his first experience to manage such a big club, but I just hope that he improves his decision making capability by collecting all these experiences. But after wathing highlights, it looked like a draw should have been possible.

We need to talk about the elephant in the room guys.

Borini-Suarez-Sturridge trio

They look very dangerous together. Got me really excited for the upcoming fixtures.

Also did you guys notice Sturridge's 5 times celebration Right in the Manc fans' faces.