Re: Has any team depended/been built round one player as much as Barcelona/Messi

by barca 2011 Mon Sep 17, 2012 2:09 pm

jibers wrote:
billy_gr wrote:This thread is true and unfair at the same time.
Barca has Messi, the best FW in the world without a doubt.
I would laugh at the OP claims if we were in the 10/11 season but last season (and partially because of injuries) our team had no firepower relying heavily on messi to score goals.
Thing is, every team having messi in its ranks would depend on him, but on the other hand can people recall games that xavi was missing, or games that iniesta wasn’t there? Heck, even Alves. The fact that these guys doesn’t score doesn’t mean they are not integral for Barca’s play. They may not be missed as much as messi if they are out mainly because we have squad players who can play decently in their absense. But as for Messi, last year, there was none who could come even close to him for us. So let’s wait and see what happens this year.

Dude I would even say for 2010/11 season. LOL Villa flopped hard that season whether you agree or not. He went like 12 gaes without scoring before popping up and scoring in the cl final. So what are you on about exactly? There were even multiple reports from SPain that he was unhappy at Barcelona. This is the same villa? Pedro also went like 9 games without scoring, and guess who once again shouldered the team? Messi. Against Real MAdrid in the tight games, who decided the game by himself? Messi. When pepe was deplotyed to track and hinder Messi in the copa final did barca fair well? No.

Over the course of Pepes cll semi finals, barc the RM game barcelona struggled in all of them, and guess who had to be stopped and did no play well, Messi, chelsea in 09, messi was stopped and Chelsea should have won the game. Inter stopped messi for 2 games and Barcelona didnt go through. Messi was the decided agains real madrid single handedleey taking out the madrid defence from almost the half way line.

Agains Chelsea Messi was creating all your opportunities and he was still hindered and was you best player. I feel like it has been a double edged sword. Your team is almost completely builyt around him. Even pep didnt know how to deal with the dilemna. And tito will have the same problem. Safe to say that if Messi gets injured no team would fear Barcelona half as much. pretty much 90% of your firepower is gone.

Jiopsi even posted the stats. I will never forget the game vs racing santander in 2009 when they were leading 1-0 and Messi came on after halftime and saved Barcelona once again from the bench. That prompted Pep tpo sya without him i would be coaching in division 3. Messi is a freak and a great guy to build a team around, but when he is stiopped your team hgave no oother plan. Messi is your plan A, B and C so much so that anyone that gpos to Barcelona has been told thye have to play for him. Villa, Ibra and every other forward that goes there has to play around tapessi.

Barcelona have depedned on Messi ever since ROnaldinho declined, noty just under Pep. The differnece between Messi in Barcelon and not in Barcelona can be seen in the 2008 season pretty clearly. Had Messi been fit all that season Barcelona would have won the league and the CL, I have no doubts, the guy got too many injuries. If Messi got injured, Barcelona would have anoyher season like that, where they wont win a thing. Even when we were the best team in 08, Barcelona still outplayed us and had like most of the possession and Messi was uinftit and still he was the best player over the two legs.

Bqar the other things Rijkaard was unlucky with Messi's injuries. I really want to see how Barcelona would cope without Messi.

Christ, plz make an effort to spell.

jibers wrote:
billy_gr wrote:i didn't. i said it wasn't always like this.
not when we had eto'o not 2 years ago.
simple as that.
a player like messi will always be the axis of the team but things weren't as tragic in the years before last season.

as for the team Maradona's Napoli and Zidane's France seem fair examples

eto left 3 years ago. and barcelona were still messi centric when they came second and third. the problem was messi was injured. once messi stayed fit barcelonas results came. if he got injured now, i am confident that la liga would be a 1 horse race, madrid would walk it again like in 08.

This makes no sense at all. Messi, healthy or not has no effect on how Madrid play. Look at this season. It just started, and although Real started poorly, saying that barca without messi would get walked on is like saying (in September) that Barca have already won the league. But you are actually "confident" of this. It's almost as if you're blaming both barca and messi for his being exceptionally healthy these last few years, and of course if he would have picked up a few injuries along the way, then there's no way he couldve been known as one the best because half the forum would've said that he's made of glass. But that's not the case and although messi is undoubtedly the best of our time, he happens to not play for Spain, undoubtedly the best NT of our time. They have pretty much the same squad (xavi, iniesta at MF), but no messi. So when Messi isn't being labeled as the best just because he has the best midfield (xavi, iniesta) feeding him gold, he (according to you) spends his time making Barcelona, with a midfield of xavi, iniesta, look not only useless without him, but as if the barca system no longer exists because its built solely around him.

by vivabarca38 Mon Sep 17, 2012 5:11 pm

Cant believe people havent realised by now that Jiopsi is Jibers....

by VanDeezNuts Mon Sep 17, 2012 5:18 pm

The Franchise wrote:Can I also point out, according to this forum.

Messi = Has the most help out of all the All time greats ever.

Barcelona = Most dependant on one player team ever.

How does this work?

imo it can make sense if it is reworded a bit.

this is just my opinion but i think that messi does have the best support as barca have the best midfield in the world with the likes of xavi and iniesta. at the same time barca have limited scoring threats when villa is injured so barca are in some respect dependent on messi's scoring.

wouldnt say they are the most dependent team ever but since barca have so many players dedicated to keeping possession that they some times lack that edge that scores goals, particularly when villa is hurt.

by DuringTheWar Mon Sep 17, 2012 5:22 pm

I get what jibers means in a way, barcelona channel their attacks so much through messi. For example they bring in world class forwards like villa and ibra and tell them to f*** off to the wings so messi can get on the ball more. Thats the route barca decided to go down so they could become even more possession dominant, the weakness is if messi gets injured or tired they will lose their cutting edge. However attack is just one aspect, they might not score as many goals without messi, but they will still easilly dominate pretty much any team in the world and make them chase shadows, they just need another wc forward apart from messi, but who would want to go there when they wont be able to play their own game because of messi? villa is world class and suffered because of messi, but he still provides a cutting edge

it works both ways though, even when messi is doing nothing in a match, his team will still set up a tap in for him

by Harmonica Mon Sep 17, 2012 5:51 pm

Diego Armando Maradona wrote:it works both ways though, even when messi is doing nothing in a match, his team will still set up a tap in for him

Of course.

Messi has scored from 261 goals in 335 games in Barcelona:

-19 tap-ins
-9 tap-ins, where Messi hasn't been part of the build up
-1 tap-in, where Messi hasn't been part of the build up, and haven't had other goal or assist in the same game

So out of every game he has played that has happened once, 6.5 years ago, against Bilbao. And are you telling me Messi didn't do anything in that match?

Laughing

by TheRedStag Mon Sep 17, 2012 5:52 pm

Is this a serious thread?

“I’ve never seen a team so dependant on one player in my life”. Well you either have lived a very short life or you simply don’t understand what it means for a team to be dependant on one player.

Barcelona are not dependant on Messi. Sure, they are a better team, a much better team even with him on the pitch. Who would argue this? But this is not what is means to be dependant on him.

For Barcelona to be dependant on Messi, they would basically have to have a small chance of getting a positive result from any match without him. This clearly is not the case. I would even suggest that Barcelona home or away would start as favourites against most teams in La Liga even if Messi was not included in match squad.

In the last match, without Messi, Barcelona were winning away from home, against a team that had bet the League Champions two matches earlier.

Dependant? No.

by DuringTheWar Mon Sep 17, 2012 6:04 pm

jiopsi wrote:
Diego Armando Maradona wrote:it works both ways though, even when messi is doing nothing in a match, his team will still set up a tap in for him
Of course.

Messi has scored from 261 goals in 335 games in Barcelona:

-19 tap-ins
-9 tap-ins, where Messi hasn't been part of the build up
-1 tap-in, where Messi hasn't been part of the build up, and haven't had other goal or assist in the same game

So out of every game he has played that has happened once, 6.5 years ago, against Bilbao. And are you telling me Messi didn't do anything in that match?

just lol, 19? whatevs dude, there were about 16 last season alone that i considered tap ins.

by Harmonica Mon Sep 17, 2012 6:09 pm

Diego Armando Maradona wrote:
jiopsi wrote:
Diego Armando Maradona wrote:it works both ways though, even when messi is doing nothing in a match, his team will still set up a tap in for him
Of course.

Messi has scored from 261 goals in 335 games in Barcelona:

-19 tap-ins
-9 tap-ins, where Messi hasn't been part of the build up
-1 tap-in, where Messi hasn't been part of the build up, and haven't had other goal or assist in the same game

So out of every game he has played that has happened once, 6.5 years ago, against Bilbao. And are you telling me Messi didn't do anything in that match?

just lol, 19? whatevs dude, there were about 16 last season alone that i considered tap ins.

Last season he scored 4 tapins. Show me one game, where he wasn't part of the build up and where he didn't do anything else?

by DuringTheWar Mon Sep 17, 2012 6:10 pm

actually no, i wrote that all wrong, i meant there were 16 he scored last season that werent tap ins. By tap in i mean a clear wide open chance set up by his teammates, which he gets pretty much every 30 minutes if i were to take an educated guess

by Harmonica Mon Sep 17, 2012 6:15 pm

Until you provide example of a game, where the team set up Messi for a tapin for doing nothing else. I will continue to laugh at you. Laughing

by Highburied Mon Sep 17, 2012 6:16 pm

Xavi and Iniesta have been more important imo.

They made Messi who is today.

Messi has a big ego and to play him, you have to get rid of anyone who thinks is a superstar, you have to play the game around him, all players should look at Messi first and then decide elsewhere, Alexis Sanchez has a short career at Barca because of Messi (mark ma words).

So what we have here?

A super talent with a super ego.

Barcelona in current system can cope without Messi but the latter cannot survive without Barca.

by DuringTheWar Mon Sep 17, 2012 6:21 pm

jiopsi wrote:Until you provide example of a game, where the team set up Messi for a tapin for doing nothing else. I will continue to laugh at you.

keep going

by Harmonica Mon Sep 17, 2012 6:25 pm

Diego Armando Maradona wrote:
jiopsi wrote:Until you provide example of a game, where the team set up Messi for a tapin for doing nothing else. I will continue to laugh at you.

keep going

So you were talking from you ass? Not that I didn't know that, because it's almost always blatantly obvious for every truly knowledgeable person, when you try to argue about something.

by Valkyrja Mon Sep 17, 2012 6:31 pm

Xavi was better in 2008-2010. He was their most important player, and I still think he is now, even if he is past it. Without him Barca wouldn't have 70+% every game, so Messi wouldn't have the ball so much.

by halamadrid2 Mon Sep 17, 2012 6:41 pm

yh Chelsea

//thread

by DuringTheWar Mon Sep 17, 2012 6:46 pm

Im an arsenal fan, im not going to be able recount who a barcelona player had quiet games against, im not obssessive about it, i watch his games, he was quiet sometimes, still scored an easy goal/s, thats it. Dont remember the venue, the opponents ect. Im sure most smart barca fans understand he has quiet games sometimes, and still gets a goal because he has great players helping to construct chances, except you

jiopsi wrote: because it's almost always blatantly obvious for every truly knowledgeable person, when you try to argue about something.

your the one people on here throw pelters at, calling you dense ect, gett off ya high horse and stop talking like an upset bitch

by gondov Mon Sep 17, 2012 6:49 pm

highburied wrote:Xavi and Iniesta have been more important imo.

They made Messi who is today.

Messi has a big ego and to play him, you have to get rid of anyone who thinks is a superstar, you have to play the game around him, all players should look at Messi first and then decide elsewhere, Alexis Sanchez has a short career at Barca because of Messi (mark ma words).

So what we have here?

A super talent with a super ego.

Barcelona in current system can cope without Messi but the latter cannot survive without Barca.

Huge ego

Apart from Ibra (due to butthurt or something), pretty much all the big stars/ego players who have played with him at Barca say the same thing about Messi. They all say he is humble, quiet, even too quiet sometimes, unselfish and all he cares about is playing football.

Henry, Eto'o, dinho, Deco, Riquelme, Maradona. These are all guys who have massive egos and they have all , more or less, lost the spotlight to Messi. Why would they continue to praise him in this way??

The reason why Ibra, Sanchez, villa, Henry, etc all have to adjust/ or move over for Messi is simple! = Messi is just too good and better than them by far. In addition when he plays there instead of them, xavi, iniesta, alves, pedro, busquets all shine.

So as a coach why on earth would you try and force Messi out of position or on the bench to accomodate sanchez or Ibra. What? For some sentimental BS! ?

What people dont get is that Messi doesnt think he is a superstar or at least doesnt show it to his teamates. Therefore every so called superstar that comes to barca soon comes to the realization that they are just not good enough, anxiety kicks in, they find themselves under pressure fighting for a spot in the first 11= Messi haters start claiming he is the reason for their failures.

If Sanchez is good enough, he will show it on the pitch no matter what position he plays and will eventually convince the coach that he is a much a better option to lead the team than Messi. Simple as that!

Messi himself started as a winger and the barca forward line is so fluid, Sanchez cant even claim that his poor form is because he is stuck on the wings or is out of position!!

Mad

Messi haters make me mad!

by Harmonica Mon Sep 17, 2012 6:55 pm

Diego Armando Maradona wrote:Im an arsenal fan, im not going to be able recount who a barcelona player had quiet games against, im not obssessive about it, i watch his games, he was quiet sometimes, still scored an easy goal/s, thats it. Dont remember the venue, the opponents ect. Im sure most smart barca fans understand he has quiet games sometimes, and still gets a goal because he has great players helping to construct chances, except you

your the one people on here throw pelters at, calling you dense ect, gett off ya high horse and stop talking like an upset bitch

So now doing nothing scoring tap-in was changed to being quiet and scoring an easy goal? Really? Unlike you I actually watch and record every Barca game, and I can tell you right away that either you don't watch Barca games very often, or you're just talking from your ass.

So? I was talking about knowledge of something and objectively arguing about it, not about teenagers this forum has.

by Highburied Mon Sep 17, 2012 6:57 pm

Messi lovers are so sensitive that whatever point you make, you will regret it because these cry babies will come with some you tube videos or some 'off topic' examples.

The point of my first post was to defend barca's system vs barca's messi.

Again, to make you cry babies feel better, Barca with Messi is a GOAT team and no need for a change but in case Messi dies or decides to become an underwear model , then Barca will have to find other alternatives which they currently have and will not be much different without Messi.

Kapishi?

No player is bigger than a club, even if you are a semi GOAT.

by Valkyrja Mon Sep 17, 2012 7:00 pm

Barca without Messi are WC champs, and won also 2 Euro's. What did Messi without Barca ?

by Harmonica Mon Sep 17, 2012 7:03 pm

Kizu wrote:Barca without Messi are WC champs, and won also 2 Euro's. What did Messi without Barca ?

So what? I think we all agree that national level football nowadays is a way worse quality football than top club football, because the time together to build or hone a team is so much less.

In that kind of situation, when you can take pretty much the best club team in history, bulk of their core players, and apply pretty much the same style to national team, gives them easy edge over other national teams, who can't do that. Case in point, Holland this year, bunch of great individuals don't make a great or even a good team.

by DuringTheWar Mon Sep 17, 2012 7:06 pm

jiopsi wrote: So now doing nothing scoring tap-in was changed to being quiet and scoring an easy goal? .

its like talking to someone with autism. Doing nothing was not meant literally, and a tap in to me is the same as an easy goal, but i knew i would have to desribe them in different terms for you to understand what i meant

jiopsi wrote:So? I was talking about knowledge of something and objectively arguing about it, not about teenagers this forum has.

go to xtratime forum then, it has plenty of knowledge and plenty of idiots as well so dont worry about fitting in

by Harmonica Mon Sep 17, 2012 7:10 pm

Diego Armando Maradona wrote:its like talking to someone with autism. Doing nothing was not meant literally, and a tap in to me is the same as an easy goal, but i knew i would have to desribe them in different terms for you to understand what i meant

go to xtratime forum then, it has plenty of knowledge and plenty of idiots as well so dont worry about fitting in

Then talk what you mean, overstating things is almost like lying.

Don't worry, I will always continue to reveal phonies like you.

by Donuts Mon Sep 17, 2012 7:16 pm

Diego Armando Maradona wrote:
its like talking to someone with autism. Doing nothing was not meant literally, and a tap in to me is the same as an easy goal, but i knew i would have to desribe them in different terms for you to understand what i meant

Clarify something for me what the hell is an easy goal? And why is it Messi seems to be the only one able to do "easy goals" instead of Sanchez Villa or Pedro.

by gondov Mon Sep 17, 2012 7:17 pm

highburied wrote:Messi lovers are so sensitive that whatever point you make, you will regret it because these cry babies will come with some you tube videos or some 'off topic' examples.

The point of my first post was to defend barca's system vs barca's messi.

Again, to make you cry babies feel better, Barca with Messi is a GOAT team and no need for a change but in case Messi dies or decides to become an underwear model , then Barca will have to find other alternatives which they currently have and will not be much different without Messi.

Kapishi?

No player is bigger than a club, even if you are a semi GOAT.

Make some BS claims about Messi without facts = Barca fans defend Messi.

Now all of a sudden we are so sensitive :facepalm:

Fact is you tried to blame Messi for the failures of sanchez, Ibrahimovic, e.t.c

Messi is a La Masia graduate, he has been tried and tested and has proven that he can deliver at that position.

The future will decide itself, a new star will come after Messi. No need to start limiting Messi now just bcz sanchez or Ibra feel bad!!

Barca should squeeze as much as they can out of Messi as long as they can. He is a once in a generation player.

by DuringTheWar Mon Sep 17, 2012 7:26 pm

Donuts wrote:Clarify something for me what the hell is an easy goal? And why is it Messi seems to be the only one able to do "easy goals" instead of Sanchez Villa or Pedro.

An easy goal is a goal that is easy to score, dont overthink it. Being put into space inside the 18 yard box from a teammates pass with a clear sight of goal is the most common easy goal messi scores. And he isnt the only one, obviously

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