not xavi or iniesta. just give messi a normal midfielder, tiago or fabregas or even ozil he will do same things. the thing is that argentina doesnt have a normal midfielder. if you supported by mascerano in midfield its better to retire from football. how can you play mascerano behind messi only the great coach maradona can do it

There is no way Messi's NT accomplishments can be compared to Baggio's. Baggio is an NT legend, an AC Milan Legend, A juve Legend, a Fiorentina Legend, an Inter Legend, and a Brescia legend.

Poor Messi is a Barca Legend only and an NT flop.

juventus101 wrote:

alexjanosik wrote:

juventus101 wrote:I actually watched the game live. Baggio outplayed Maradona in pretty much every time they faced each other. One game Maradons did better, good for him. Pretty much every time Baggio won that personal battle. And Baggio is better than Messi. Messi breaks goalscoring records, but thats not what Baggio was about. He was just as much, if not more, about creating as he was about scoring. And as i said before, the only experts claiming Messi is the greatest ever are Barcelona players and Maradona. And i will use Messis international failures against him. Baggios 94 Italy team was far weaker than Messis 2010 Argentina team, AND in my opinion the competition was tougher for Baggio yet he still carried that mediocre Italy team to the final. During the WCs Baggio has never let his Italy get outscored in open play. Only knocked out on PKs every time. Baggio > Maradona >/= Messi.

Its amazing the lengths people will go to to discredit Messi.
Claiming Italy 94 was far weaker than Argentina 2010.
Unless you backtrack son I am going to start the following threads.
Gabriel Milito>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Francco Baresi
Gabriel Heinze>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Paolo Maldini
Samuel>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Costacurta
Gutierrez>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Mauro Tassotti
I am sure according to Mr Clueless the Italy defense with GOATS in all positions is far far worse than the great great Argentinian defense marshalled by Heinze and Milito.
Ofcourse its also painfully obvious that the one man midfield which Argentina played in the WC of Mascherano is far far greater than Italy's midfield.
I am sure the Masch alone is thrice as good as a midfield of Albertini,Dino Baggio and Donadini.

NTM the greatest coach of all time Diego Maradona up against the bumbling novice,Sacchi.


What chance does poor Sacchi have up against the footballing intelligence of Maradona.

Do people actually read before they post such nonsense.

Did you actually watch the WC as i did, or did you look it up the squad somewhere? Maldini was very young and not all that great just yet. Baresi was wayyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy past it. Costacurta, like Baggio, was fighting through an injury. It was all on Dino and Roby.

Did you actually watch the 2010 WC or are you just going by the squad.
I mean,sure gabriel Milito was just coming off a record breaking season at Barca putting in unbelievable performances week in week out,the undisputed best CB in the world.
Gabriel Heinze putting in MOM performances,the world's best LB and as for Gutierrez,GOAT.
Fact remains that Italy had a GOAT defense with players who had played for years together for their clubs.One of the greatest defenses of all time.
They had a highly competent midfield and Baggio upfront.
Whereas if you had bothered to watch the Argentina games instead of just going by the names Aguero,Higuain etc,you would know that the team was all Messi.Nobody else showed up.It was basically Messi and 10 other passengers.
Not even up for debate.baggio had a far better team.

huntsman wrote:There is no way Messi's NT accomplishments can be compared to Baggio's. Baggio is an NT legend, an AC Milan Legend, A juve Legend, a Fiorentina Legend, an Inter Legend, and a Brescia legend.

Poor Messi is a Barca Legend only and an NT flop.

Seedorf is Ajax, R.Madrid and Milan legend he won CL with these clubs.
Figo is a barca, madrid and inter legend? so what? messi alsco would perform great in another top-clubs.
but to perform like barca's messi is not possible, his success and performance in barcelona will not be repeated in next 50 years.

btw you make me bash baggio and you dont even give a shit about him. stop behaving like a cheerleader in every thread. go analyze your Kaka an useless player who only shone 1 season then became CR's bitch

I did watch all the Argentina games. And Aguero was performing very well. Messi was still the best player on his team obviously, but still way below his usual standard.

And on paper, Italy 94s defense was amazing. But it actually wasnt. At all. Baresi was wayyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy past it and Maldini was young and not really very established yet. Dino and Roby, it was all on them. And btw, im pretty sure Argentina started Zanetti-Samuel-Demichelis-Heinze, and Demichelis, Zanetti, and Samuel were all coming off of great club seasons. Im fairly certain Gabi Milito didnt start.

juventus101 wrote:I did watch all the Argentina games. And Aguero was performing very well. Messi was still the best player on his team obviously, but still way below his usual standard.

And on paper, Italy 94s defense was amazing. But it actually wasnt. At all. Baresi was wayyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy past it and Maldini was young and not really very established yet. Dino and Roby, it was all on them. And btw, im pretty sure Argentina started Zanetti-Samuel-Demichelis-Heinze, and Demichelis, Zanetti, and Samuel were all coming off of great club seasons. Im fairly certain Gabi Milito didnt start.

No matter whichever way you put it,Italy had a far superior defense than Argentina.Cant belive you are actually disputing that.
Zanetti wasnt taken to the WC.Thats the genius of Maradona right there.
In the ill fated match against Germany,the Argentinian back four was Otamendi,Demichelis,Burdisso and Heinze with just Masch in midfield. Argentina stood no chance.
Also Demichelis was not coming off of a great club season.he was poor for Bayern.

"Cristiano and Messi are the best players in the world, and far ahead of all others. If they belonged to different generations, they would win 10 Ballon d’Or awards."

The above is a Mourinho quote. As much as i dont like the man, i agree with him.

Thats the dumbest thing ive ever heard. You thinj theyd win 10 Ballon Dors in the early 90s with Baggio, Romario, and Maradona around, among others? Or the late 90s with Baggio, Ronaldo, Zidane, Figo, etc around? The 90s and early 2000s were the best years for soccer. Messi might win a couple once Baggio was past it, but i doubt Ronaldo would win any.

And demichelis wasnt actually that bad of a degender. Pretty solid, just prone to blunders. With Lucio they were solid. But him and DVB together were just not good together at all. Yet they still made it to the CL final. Id say thats a good season.

And ok, so we say Italy 94s defense was better, i never said it wasnt actually. I said overall that Argentina team was stronger than that Italy team, at least on paper. So the rest goes to Argentina. Midfield, Argentina had Mascherano, Cambiasso, and Banega, whereas Italy had just Dino of note. Up top Italy only had Baggio. Argentina had Messi, Aguero, Tevez, and Lavezzi. Yet Italy, lead by Baggio, got the WC final, whereas Argentina, lead by Messi, crashed out of the World Cup and couldnt even get to the final of the Copa America.

Baggio > Messi.

Saw Baggio play all his career. I will say this, he is the greatest Italian attacker I ahve ever seen and second behind Meazza only. The last true fantasia in football. Both are great in their own rights.

The only problem I find with Messi is that he has shown to find massive problems with Italian teams. I refuse to pick one over the other.

But for me, and Mourinho, Messi > Romario, baggio. I don't know about Maradona, but i am inclined to agree with the experts in this case.

jibers wrote:The only problem I find with Messi is that he has shown to find massive problems with Italian teams.

That's actually a good point; messi does choke indeed against good quality teams with good defenses. Recently he was owned by Nesta and before by Zanetti.

If Messi wasnt playing for the best team, he would just be your above average player with a few dribbling tricks and entertaining goals up his sleeves. But he lacks the spark and leadership to achieve glory like the past greats.

This season we saw him miss when it matters most and score when it matters not; almost like ronaldo last season.

Thanks for highlighting this point out jibers. Sometimes the answer is just there infront of you but you're looking the other way.

Huntsman you're a troll and no one should take you seriously.I didn't watch Baggio live I have only seen some matches of him So I can't judge.But really are you seriously comparing Italy's 1994 team to Argentina's 2010 world cup team.Maldini,Baresi and Costacurta had won the CL that year and Reached the CL final the year before.To be Honest,A 14 year old Maldini and a 55 year old Baresi would still be better than Heinze And Milito.And they had a Great Midfield and Attack.

I already said the defense was better. But other than that, they had ptett qual midfields but a much stronger attack on paper. Dino was better than any of Argentinas midfielders and Baggio was better thanbany of Argentinas forwards, but thsts all they had of note. Argentina had Mascherano, Cambiasso, Banega, Lavezzi, Messi, Aguero, and Tevez. Yet still the Baggios carried that team to the WC final, whereas Argentina could even get to the final of the Copa America

juventus101 wrote:Thats the dumbest thing ive ever heard. You thinj theyd win 10 Ballon Dors in the early 90s with Baggio, Romario, and Maradona around, among others? Or the late 90s with Baggio, Ronaldo, Zidane, Figo, etc around? The 90s and early 2000s were the best years for soccer. Messi might win a couple once Baggio was past it, but i doubt Ronaldo would win any.

And demichelis wasnt actually that bad of a degender. Pretty solid, just prone to blunders. With Lucio they were solid. But him and DVB together were just not good together at all. Yet they still made it to the CL final. Id say thats a good season.

And ok, so we say Italy 94s defense was better, i never said it wasnt actually. I said overall that Argentina team was stronger than that Italy team, at least on paper. So the rest goes to Argentina. Midfield, Argentina had Mascherano, Cambiasso, and Banega, whereas Italy had just Dino of note. Up top Italy only had Baggio. Argentina had Messi, Aguero, Tevez, and Lavezzi. Yet Italy, lead by Baggio, got the WC final, whereas Argentina, lead by Messi, crashed out of the World Cup and couldnt even get to the final of the Copa America.

Baggio > Messi.

didnt michael owen win the award somehwhere in the early 2000s when there were so many great players still playing? just saying lol

juventus101 wrote:I already said the defense was better. But other than that, they had ptett qual midfields but a much stronger attack on paper. Dino was better than any of Argentinas midfielders and Baggio was better thanbany of Argentinas forwards, but thsts all they had of note. Argentina had Mascherano, Cambiasso, Banega, Lavezzi, Messi, Aguero, and Tevez. Yet still the Baggios carried that team to the WC final, whereas Argentina could even get to the final of the Copa America

Gathering up false information.Banega and Lavezzi werent even called up for the World cup.That leaves us With Aguero,Messi,Tevez and Higuain.Also Italy had Zola and Signori two Great strikers.

Why are we comparing two different players? I'm not surprised considering juventus101 has a knack for creating threads that lead to people insulting his idiocy.

I'll say it again, Baggio CANNOT be judged by these poorly compiled you tube videos. It does not bring justice to his subtleties and inner genius. To appreciate Baggio you must watch a whole match of him.

Its for me, Baggio was overall the better playmaker in his passing, vision and influence for the team along with his free kicks, use of 2 feet and penalties, curlers and long shots. You might be thinking playmaking? TRUST ME, Baggio was literally perfect in that aspect.

But thats where it ends as Messi is a more devastating player in his overall finishing, goalscoring, dribbling essential ability to turn around the match.

Messi overall is the better and larger player in football history and this cannot be argued.

The difference is one is a false 9 while the other is a Fantasista/#10 with a slightly deeper position. Slight difference but not discreet enough to differentiate.

As for International, Messi has a lot to live up to internationally before catching up with Baggio but that is ONLY because Baggio was a legend for Italia.

But...Messi has been Argentina's best player for 95% of the matches as he has had to cope with the unbelievably poor tactics of Maradona and his successors along with how he has had to play a deep role and literally playing the goalscorer and sole creator for his team which is IMMENSE pressure for his young shoulders and that especially with a team with poor defence and a non-existent midfield.

I would like to make a point as I have yet to see Messi dribble past and destroy his defenders without his agility and speed as although I am sure he will be doing so through his guile when he has lost that ability (pace).

Baggio even when older used to beat 2-3 defenders regularly at walking pace.

This is not to compare the two but the highlight Baggio's genius. The man for me was capable of anything. ANYTHING.

Messi is simply the better and more legendary player, but not by a MILE as some say as this thread is quite unfair.

Thanks for the info, Arq, i will download / watch some of the baggio games in my freetime.

but i disagree, Messi is just a better scorer in a poor league where the norm is for barca and madrid to win 8 - 0.

Baggio is a legend and as you put it, he is better in every department except pace and scoring and for the scoring part because baggio used to play in a different and tougher league.

somebody should ban this attention bitch. usually trolls post their 1-2 posts and then leave but this troll keeps posting after every post. ok we know your thoughts now you can gtfo.hr never heard about baggio sees a baggio thread watches his clips and starts trolling until the thread gets locked

ofcourse, i post, wait for someone else to post and then respond, you cant have a proper conversation with yourself only smarty, takes two to tango, messi fan boy.

i dont think i will be gtfo any time soon from this thread as long as i have something constructive to add to the arguments being made and if i feel like contributing. And stop it with your insults and attacks on me and the other users like juventus fan simply because we dont share your enthusiasm on the HGH laboratory manufactured hobbit. If you want to have a proper argument and conversation like normal people then you are welcome, if not, up to you, i dont have any problems anyway, messi fan boy.

Arquitecto wrote:Why are we comparing two different players? I'm not surprised considering juventus101 has a knack for creating threads that lead to people insulting his idiocy.

I'll say it again, Baggio CANNOT be judged by these poorly compiled you tube videos. It does not bring justice to his subtleties and inner genius. To appreciate Baggio you must watch a whole match of him.

Its for me, Baggio was overall the better playmaker in his passing, vision and influence for the team along with his free kicks, use of 2 feet and penalties, curlers and long shots. You might be thinking playmaking? TRUST ME, Baggio was literally perfect in that aspect.

But thats where it ends as Messi is a more devastating player in his overall finishing, goalscoring, dribbling essential ability to turn around the match.

Messi overall is the better and larger player in football history and this cannot be argued.

The difference is one is a false 9 while the other is a Fantasista/#10 with a slightly deeper position. Slight difference but not discreet enough to differentiate.

As for International, Messi has a lot to live up to internationally before catching up with Baggio but that is ONLY because Baggio was a legend for Italia.

But...Messi has been Argentina's best player for 95% of the matches as he has had to cope with the unbelievably poor tactics of Maradona and his successors along with how he has had to play a deep role and literally playing the goalscorer and sole creator for his team which is IMMENSE pressure for his young shoulders and that especially with a team with poor defence and a non-existent midfield.

I would like to make a point as I have yet to see Messi dribble past and destroy his defenders without his agility and speed as although I am sure he will be doing so through his guile when he has lost that ability (pace).

Baggio even when older used to beat 2-3 defenders regularly at walking pace.

This is not to compare the two but the highlight Baggio's genius. The man for me was capable of anything. ANYTHING.

Messi is simply the better and more legendary player, but not by a MILE as some say as this thread is quite unfair.

Arq, in your above post, if i am not mistaken, you have described baggio as superior to messi in every aspect except pace, dribbling and scoring yet you still give messi a higher overall score, why is that?

Zanetti>Baggio

huntsman wrote:ofcourse, i post, wait for someone else to post and then respond, you cant have a proper conversation with yourself only smarty, takes two to tango, messi fan boy.

i dont think i will be gtfo any time soon from this thread as long as i have something constructive to add to the arguments being made and if i feel like contributing. And stop it with your insults and attacks on me and the other users like juventus fan simply because we dont share your enthusiasm on the HGH laboratory manufactured hobbit. If you want to have a proper argument and conversation like normal people then you are welcome, if not, up to you, i dont have any problems anyway, messi fan boy.

who responded you? only response you got was "stop trolling". now you became an angel after thinking 10 minutes you prepared a question to get an answer from arcuiteqto to prove that you are not an abnormal person

here is your posts

huntsman wrote:There is no way Messi's NT accomplishments can be compared to Baggio's. Baggio is an NT legend, an AC Milan Legend, A juve Legend, a Fiorentina Legend, an Inter Legend, and a Brescia legend.

Poor Messi is a Barca Legend only and an NT flop.

huntsman wrote:

That's actually a good point; messi does choke indeed against good quality teams with good defenses. Recently he was owned by Nesta and before by Zanetti.

If Messi wasnt playing for the best team, he would just be your above average player with a few dribbling tricks and entertaining goals up his sleeves. But he lacks the spark and leadership to achieve glory like the past greats.

This season we saw him miss when it matters most and score when it matters not; almost like ronaldo last season.

huntsman wrote:
but i disagree, Messi is just a better scorer in a poor league where the norm is for barca and madrid to win 8 - 0.

Baggio is a legend and as you put it, he is better in every department except pace and scoring and for the scoring part because baggio used to play in a different and tougher league.

Question is why you keep repeating this? even cr fans, maradona fans, haters dont say it. at least they dont say it directly to respect club's and player's fans, they dont do it to have normal conversation. what you do is to create a fight as you are an attention bitch and am sure the thread will get locked at the end

he is a God, because he can drible some La Liga s*** defenders.. Why he didn't scored from action against italian teams? why he can't score against chelsea from action? Why he can't play alongside Higuain, Lavezzi, Dimaria, Tevez, Zabaleta, Gaitan, Aguero if he is messiah ?

As i see few people impressed after baggio's youtube videos i have a challenge for baggio lovers. if you can show me baggio getting past more than 2 players 5 times i will say he was better dribbler than Messi. You posted all baggio's best moments here now find just 5 moments where he gets past more than 2 people.

messi did it more than 200 times but if you show me 5 moments i will say baggio was better at getting past players

tuddor wrote:he is a God, because he can drible some La Liga s*** defenders.. Why he didn't scored from action against italian teams? why he can't score against chelsea from action? Why he can't play alongside Higuain, Lavezzi, Dimaria, Tevez, Zabaleta, Gaitan, Aguero if he is messiah ?

hear, hear. I also asked the same questions.

huntsman wrote:

jibers wrote:The only problem I find with Messi is that he has shown to find massive problems with Italian teams.

That's actually a good point; messi does choke indeed against good quality teams with good defenses. Recently he was owned by Nesta and before by Zanetti.

If Messi wasnt playing for the best team, he would just be your above average player with a few dribbling tricks and entertaining goals up his sleeves. But he lacks the spark and leadership to achieve glory like the past greats.

This season we saw him miss when it matters most and score when it matters not; almost like ronaldo last season.

Thanks for highlighting this point out jibers. Sometimes the answer is just there infront of you but you're looking the other way.

I'm done with goal legacy, I can't deal with this shite anymore.