Re: If Barcelona manage to retain the CL where would they rank amongst the greatest teams of all time?

by RED Fri Apr 06, 2012 11:30 pm

RealGunner wrote:they would be in top 5 of all time for sure.

by stunt Fri Apr 06, 2012 11:37 pm

There are plenty teams who dominated decades or atleast long periods. Madrid, Benfica, Liverpool, Ajax, Bayern, etc..

Barca are at the level of those teams. It was not easier back then and it will not be harder in the future.

by jibers Fri Apr 06, 2012 11:39 pm

dnmac4 wrote:
jibers wrote:
dnmac4 wrote:I don't think Barca has to win this year to cement anything. As a Barca fan I don't think this years team is as strong as some of the other that have won the CL so for me I have already seen the best of what the current Barca set up has achieved.

For my money the best team was with Eto'o, Henry, Yaya, Messi, Xavi, Iniesta, Puyol, Pique, Abidal, Alves, Busquets, Pedro, Marquez, Keita, Sylvinho, Hleb, Gudjohnsen, Bojan, and Valdes. This team has a similar core but in my humble opinion the team I just listed would mop the floor with the current team so I don't really see what this team winning a CL has to do with my opinion of the current set up.

I would place the team I listed in the top 3 of all time as no one can ever just say one team is better then everyone else. I can tell you I have lived on this earth for 31 years and have been following football very closely for the last 15 years and this by far is the best team I have ever seen.

To say one team is the best of all time is just so disrespectful to teams I have never seen play so I can't have any appreciation for how good they are.

The Barcelona you are refering to is the 09 Barcelona correct? I think last season was the best Barcelona side I have ever seen and the best team I have watched in my lifetime. I think that the current Madrid are better than the 09 Barcelona. Last season was a joke. Never seen a team that was so hard to beat.

Yes, 09 Barca. And I would have to disagree with you. Just from the CF play alone the 09 team was better IMO. Villa was up and down all year last year where as Eto'o was a monster in 09. Going forward they were such a machine and just had a lot more raw talent on the pitch.

Plus you had Puyol in his prime and Xavi was also in his prime not slowing down a little bit and Messi is better now but then again we didn't depend on him as much in 09 as we did last year and this year. Plus IMO Yaya is better then Busquets but who cares they were both on the 09 team and both played. Not to mention Pedro was incredible and Henry had his moments of brilliance. The team you mention is just smaller and way more dependent on Messi plus some of the key players are not at there physical peak.

And BTW, the Madrid team your talking about, we have dominated them this year with a watered down squad IMO. I don't know how they could be better then the 09 squad because this years Barca is by no means better then 09 Barca.

This year Barelona have failed for multiple reasons. Barcelona last season was superior and a better unit than that of the 09. They won more points, won more games in a row breaking a record held by Di Stefanos Real Madrid. 09 Barcelona was great but 11 Barcelona took it to whole different level. The goals that you speak about from 09, Villa and Pedros main job is too create space for Messi to operate. Pedro was at his best last season. Barcelona dominated teams far more in 11 than they did in 09, I mean I think the average possession for 09 to 11 had gone up by about 8%!

by The Franchise Sat Apr 07, 2012 12:43 am

Impsossible to say with certaintity.

But in a 1 v 1 match with any opponant I ever seen, I would but money on this team.

Nobody forces teams to play completely different games/style/tactics like this team does..nobody forced this much deviation from their "normal" game and tha says a heck of alot.

by BarrileteCosmico Sat Apr 07, 2012 12:48 am

jibers wrote:I have already said that I feel that Bacelona are benefiting from the fact that most teams are at the end of their cycles. That being said, this Real Madrid team is probably the best Real Madrid team I have ever seen, definatley the best of my lifetime. If they happen to beat them again and win the leg from a 10 point deficit, they will go down as one of the best teams ever, if they aren't already.

This is a pretty iffy argument to me. Were United and Chelsea not at their recent peaks in 08-09? Is this Milan team not their best iteration since they reached a CL final (and thus clearly in ascent)? Were we not beaten by the best Inter side in history (or 2nd best)? As you mentioned, hasn't this Real Madrid come a very long way since the days of Juande Ramos? Not every team we faced is in descent, and we faced plenty of them at some of their strongest moments. I confidently believe that Barca's domination makes some teams look worse than they actually are.

@Dnmac: I don't think the difference is that big between 11-12 and 08-09 Barca. Consider the fact that in 08-09 Barca did not win a single match where Barca were scored on first, whereas we have done it this season at the biggest stage (in clasicos) multiple times. The mental fortitude this team has is much, much higher. Also in 08-09 no one played hyper-defensive against Barca except Chelsea, so the results flatter us.

by Luca Sat Apr 07, 2012 12:53 am

Idk about all time but this Barcelona is certainly the best team I've ever seen

by steve_smith Sat Apr 07, 2012 12:58 am

RealGunner wrote:they would be in top 5 of all time for sure.

This probably.

But they would have an asterik by it reading controversial calls-see Chelsea09, Inter10, Arsenal11, Real Madrid11, Milan12. Very Happy

The most dominant team in my lifetime was Milan in the late 80s, early 90s. They played in the most dominant league ever and played in like 4 out of 5 or 6 CL finals winning most of them. Also, unlike Barcelona, I can remember the controversy against Milan not in favor of. Marseille altered their league schedule so they could be fully fit against Milan while Milan were balls deep in Serie A competition. If I remember correctly, if they beat Marseille, they would have won 3 consecutive CLs.

Barcelona is great though, just wish they didn't cheat (dive) or get the calls from the refs like they do. There is just no explaining all the red cards against the opposition. RVP's red card was the worst 2nd yellow-red I've ever witnessed in a major comp. Just like Nesta's penalty was worst penalty ever.

by steve_smith Sat Apr 07, 2012 1:04 am

dnmac4 wrote:
jibers wrote:
dnmac4 wrote:I don't think Barca has to win this year to cement anything. As a Barca fan I don't think this years team is as strong as some of the other that have won the CL so for me I have already seen the best of what the current Barca set up has achieved.

For my money the best team was with Eto'o, Henry, Yaya, Messi, Xavi, Iniesta, Puyol, Pique, Abidal, Alves, Busquets, Pedro, Marquez, Keita, Sylvinho, Hleb, Gudjohnsen, Bojan, and Valdes. This team has a similar core but in my humble opinion the team I just listed would mop the floor with the current team so I don't really see what this team winning a CL has to do with my opinion of the current set up.

I would place the team I listed in the top 3 of all time as no one can ever just say one team is better then everyone else. I can tell you I have lived on this earth for 31 years and have been following football very closely for the last 15 years and this by far is the best team I have ever seen.

To say one team is the best of all time is just so disrespectful to teams I have never seen play so I can't have any appreciation for how good they are.

The Barcelona you are refering to is the 09 Barcelona correct? I think last season was the best Barcelona side I have ever seen and the best team I have watched in my lifetime. I think that the current Madrid are better than the 09 Barcelona. Last season was a joke. Never seen a team that was so hard to beat.

Yes, 09 Barca. And I would have to disagree with you. Just from the CF play alone the 09 team was better IMO. Villa was up and down all year last year where as Eto'o was a monster in 09. Going forward they were such a machine and just had a lot more raw talent on the pitch.

Plus you had Puyol in his prime and Xavi was also in his prime not slowing down a little bit and Messi is better now but then again we didn't depend on him as much in 09 as we did last year and this year. Plus IMO Yaya is better then Busquets but who cares they were both on the 09 team and both played. Not to mention Pedro was incredible and Henry had his moments of brilliance. The team you mention is just smaller and way more dependent on Messi plus some of the key players are not at there physical peak.

And BTW, the Madrid team your talking about, we have dominated them this year with a watered down squad IMO. I don't know how they could be better then the 09 squad because this years Barca is by no means better then 09 Barca.

I agree with you about 09. Eto is an absolute beast. One of the most under-rated players of our era. I put him in my top 5. He carried Inter last year and we see how Inter is this year without him. The guy can play. United was good that year too, better than last year. Eto and Barcelona dominated them in the final.

by LeBéninois Sat Apr 07, 2012 2:32 am

BarrileteCosmico wrote:2nd best team in history, after the River Plate of the 40s

lol , how do you know . This FCB level is much higher than theirs

by LeBéninois Sat Apr 07, 2012 2:35 am

steve_smith wrote:
dnmac4 wrote:
jibers wrote:
dnmac4 wrote:I don't think Barca has to win this year to cement anything. As a Barca fan I don't think this years team is as strong as some of the other that have won the CL so for me I have already seen the best of what the current Barca set up has achieved.

For my money the best team was with Eto'o, Henry, Yaya, Messi, Xavi, Iniesta, Puyol, Pique, Abidal, Alves, Busquets, Pedro, Marquez, Keita, Sylvinho, Hleb, Gudjohnsen, Bojan, and Valdes. This team has a similar core but in my humble opinion the team I just listed would mop the floor with the current team so I don't really see what this team winning a CL has to do with my opinion of the current set up.

I would place the team I listed in the top 3 of all time as no one can ever just say one team is better then everyone else. I can tell you I have lived on this earth for 31 years and have been following football very closely for the last 15 years and this by far is the best team I have ever seen.

To say one team is the best of all time is just so disrespectful to teams I have never seen play so I can't have any appreciation for how good they are.

The Barcelona you are refering to is the 09 Barcelona correct? I think last season was the best Barcelona side I have ever seen and the best team I have watched in my lifetime. I think that the current Madrid are better than the 09 Barcelona. Last season was a joke. Never seen a team that was so hard to beat.

Yes, 09 Barca. And I would have to disagree with you. Just from the CF play alone the 09 team was better IMO. Villa was up and down all year last year where as Eto'o was a monster in 09. Going forward they were such a machine and just had a lot more raw talent on the pitch.

Plus you had Puyol in his prime and Xavi was also in his prime not slowing down a little bit and Messi is better now but then again we didn't depend on him as much in 09 as we did last year and this year. Plus IMO Yaya is better then Busquets but who cares they were both on the 09 team and both played. Not to mention Pedro was incredible and Henry had his moments of brilliance. The team you mention is just smaller and way more dependent on Messi plus some of the key players are not at there physical peak.

And BTW, the Madrid team your talking about, we have dominated them this year with a watered down squad IMO. I don't know how they could be better then the 09 squad because this years Barca is by no means better then 09 Barca.

I agree with you about 09. Eto is an absolute beast. One of the most under-rated players of our era. I put him in my top 5. He carried Inter last year and we see how Inter is this year without him. The guy can play. United was good that year too, better than last year. Eto and Barcelona dominated them in the final.

You guys said it all

by LeBéninois Sat Apr 07, 2012 3:32 am

I so much miss eto'o , Damn !!

by manlio Sat Apr 07, 2012 7:29 am

Can't say , football has changed ,different eras , different football .

by shamr9pato Sat Apr 07, 2012 11:26 am

i would rank that the same as messi winning the ballon d'or last year

by billy_gr Sat Apr 07, 2012 1:30 pm

poor man's Eto's, Ronnie, Messi's barca

by leemhuis Sat Apr 07, 2012 1:39 pm

dnmac4 wrote:
leemhuis wrote:
BarrileteCosmico wrote:I don't mean to belittle the accomplishments of those that won the European Cup consecutively, as it is a great trophy worthy of admiration, but in comparison to it's modern-day version it was child's play.

Actually, it was far more difficult to win. Only real league champions competed and there were no easy games. To win it more than once you had to have a team that was far, far superior to the others.

You do notice that your theory is totally wrong, correct? With the version your talking about all of the teams that won there leagues in this years event are knocked out already except Barcelona at this stage of the event.

I mean some of the statements on this forum are just stunning. It's like zombies incapable of independent thought just type what ever is in there tunnel vision for whatever rhetoric there pushing that day are sitting behind the computers.

Also, just because you win a league the year before doesn't mean that your better then the second or third place teams from other leagues or that you will keep that level of play up into the next season. It's like saying Dortmond are better then Madrid and playing Madrid in this years CL is an "easy" game.

I see that logic is no longer taught, and unfortunately, they sell computers and access to internet to anyone.

In the old cup, every round was a knock out round, there was no seeding or other facilitation for the biggest among the biggest teams (all champions of their respective leagues). To win 5 years in a row, a team could not skip a beat, could not allow itself to have one bad game. A far cry from facing the powerhouses like APOEL, Basel etc.

by che Sat Apr 07, 2012 1:49 pm

leemhuis wrote:
In the old cup, every round was a knock out round, there was no seeding or other facilitation for the biggest among the biggest teams (all champions of their respective leagues). To win 5 years in a row, a team could not skip a beat, could not allow itself to have one bad game. A far cry from facing the powerhouses like APOEL, Basel etc.

are you seriously that ignorant?

teams like apoel and basel are EXACTLY the kind of teams that would play in the european cup knockout rounds, because no more than one team from each country was allowed

if this year's cl had the same qualifying pattern as european cup had in the first few decades, the teams in r16 would be the following:

man utd
barcelona
dortmund
milan
porto
lille
zenit
ajax
shakhtar
olympiacos
fenerbahce
genk (...)
copenhagen
basel (oh noes)
sturm graz
apoel (oh noes)

by BarcaLearning Sat Apr 07, 2012 4:58 pm

I cant comment on the past since I and Im sure most of us just dont know football back in those times. But for example Real winning 5 straight CL, I thought it was becos theyhad little compeition back then? Was Spainish league the best back then? Did the leagues in those times compete quite evenly like nowadays where u got La Liga, EPL, Serie A and Bundeslinga and many more fighting to get into the CL?

by leemhuis Sat Apr 07, 2012 5:31 pm

BarcaLearning wrote:I cant comment on the past since I and Im sure most of us just dont know football back in those times. But for example Real winning 5 straight CL, I thought it was becos theyhad little compeition back then? Was Spainish league the best back then? Did the leagues in those times compete quite evenly like nowadays where u got La Liga, EPL, Serie A and Bundeslinga and many more fighting to get into the CL?

In those days you had very powerful championship teams in the Scottish, Dutch, and Portuguese leagues and were knocking out the other big teams early:

"Over the following seasons teams from different countries, Holland, Germany, Italy and England have had periods of dominance. However some of the big clubs, in particular Milan, Real Madrid and Marseille were becoming increasingly unhappy that some of their tournaments were only lasting for two games if their teams got knocked out in the first round of what was then a knock out competition. So, the format was changed to a league format in the early stages...."

http://www.championsleaguetalk.com/history-of-the-european-cup-and-champions-league-tournaments-355

by steve_smith Sat Apr 07, 2012 7:29 pm

che wrote:
leemhuis wrote:
In the old cup, every round was a knock out round, there was no seeding or other facilitation for the biggest among the biggest teams (all champions of their respective leagues). To win 5 years in a row, a team could not skip a beat, could not allow itself to have one bad game. A far cry from facing the powerhouses like APOEL, Basel etc.

are you seriously that ignorant?

teams like apoel and basel are EXACTLY the kind of teams that would play in the european cup knockout rounds, because no more than one team from each country was allowed

if this year's cl had the same qualifying pattern as european cup had in the first few decades, the teams in r16 would be the following:

man utd
barcelona
dortmund
milan
porto
lille
zenit
ajax
shakhtar
olympiacos
fenerbahce
genk (...)
copenhagen
basel (oh noes)
sturm graz
apoel (oh noes)

OK. So qualifying to make the CL was that much more difficult. You had to win your league or win the CL to earn a spot. That's why Milan of the 80s/90s was most impressive. They either won league over great clubs and/or beat Europe's best to go to 4 finals in 6 years.
Much more impressive run than current Barcelona.

by billy_gr Sun Apr 08, 2012 1:21 pm

no, just no

by Forza Sun Apr 08, 2012 1:43 pm

Sacchi's Milan will still be the best. Barca can have the no.2 spot.

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