BarrileteCosmico wrote:Batista's post-game remarks

"Maybe we're missing a target man"

"Perhaps Pastore will play with Messi but I don't like making many changes"

"The game against Costa Rica is a final"

What i gather from that is a few things....


What i gather from those words anyway.

The Franchise wrote:
Just isnt fancied I guess, he is 30 now, perhaps just isnt seen a neded.

Though how anyone can see Gago as needed and Lucho not, I dont quite understand.

Thanks for the reply dani. I agree completely. There are some things which can never really be completely understood.

Join me and mole! Discussing Copa right now.

http://thebarcaforum.webs.com/chatlobby.htm

What I am taking away from the games so far, Argentina dont play like Barca and its not natural for many of their players. I actually dont think its a good idea the insistence on trying to play like Barca at all.

The players whenever they get the ball back, are naturally more direct, naturally more aggressive in attack, the transition is faster.

One thing I certainly have learnt is, players have their tenancies, they have their natural games and changing them is near impossible in most cases.

Whenever Argentina won the ball back, they didnt look to dominate possession, they didnt look to establish calm, they went on the attack, they looked forward and they tried to interchange rapidly.

I am thinking, the first half of both games, Argentina actually played quite well. The second half, they began to feel the pressure of having to win the games and they started to falter.

I think the insistence on making Messi comfortable, by playing "like Barca" is ill-advised and counter productive.

Other then Messi and a few others, they dont actually have the personale to pull it of, they have a different style of player.

Messi is essentially what makes Barca different to Spain (other then Alves of course), so trying to basically copying Barca's way of playing using the one player at the focal point of it who is different from the rest of Barca.

Saying that, I dont wish to completely rule out Argentina based on two games. Goals change games, games change seasons (in this case tournaments) and its not over yet.

Anyone who saw the commentary thread would probably notice my praise of Colombia's defensive performance and extreme athletic ability. Nothing has changed since then in terms of my opinion, defensively, they were terrific.

BarcaKizz wrote:Join me and mole! Discussing Copa right now.

http://thebarcaforum.webs.com/chatlobby.htm

Will try. Unfortunately I am in office and will leave for home in twenty minutes. I will reach in one and half hours or so. Will you all be online till then? I guess that's unlikely.

The Franchise wrote:I actually dont think its a good idea the insistence on trying to play like Barca at all.

I am thinking, the first half of both games, Argentina actually played quite well. The second half, they began to feel the pressure of having to win the games and they started to falter.

Saying that, I dont wish to completely rule out Argentina based on two games. Goals change games, games change seasons (in this case tournaments) and its not over yet.

Great post dani. Senselessly trying to copy Barca is going nowhere. Let's be clear about something. Playing with a false number 9 sounds very fancy but is actually very difficult to do. If you don't have the personnel for it don't try it. Rather push Messi to the right and use a traditional number 9 (say Aguero or Higuain). Also use Angel Di Maria on the other wing to get some kind of wing play. That's the best I can think of right now.

Yes the first half wasn't bad although not good either. The second half was terrible. It must be mentioned that switching to a 4-2-3-1 has both times made the team worse than they already were.

Your last point is crucial. Remember Spain started with a defeat and won WC 2010. Today does anyone care about the criticism they got after the first match. I actually said this before. Argentina usually start great and then fizz out. This time we have started slow but we could still win the trophy. Have some faith.

The false 9 idea, it isnt a new one, teams have used it before, for years. I mean, over 40 years ago.

But all those teams I know of, they kept good possession, they liked to play short passing with slow build up.

Need the personale for it. It has to be a team wide approach.

Agreed dani. It's not new. Cruyff was a false number 9 for instance. However it's a difficult system to implement and you need the right players having pace, skill, on and off the ball movement and ability to make link ups literally all over the pitch. It's like a small subset of total football. Argentina should not be trying it with their squad as far as I can see.

I don't think a change of formation and tactics will do them any good at this point. Reverting to a previous (and failed) formation smells too much like desperation. Considering the wealth of talent on their bench, a change of personnel is a far better option.

Tevez should be among the first to go. His unwillingness to not come toward the ball and instead make off-the-ball runs is undermining the idea of 'playing like Barca', and is far more of an issue than Lavezzi's bad finishing.

BarrileteCosmico wrote:Messi never played in Argentina so consequently people here never really got to see his magic before he moved on to Barcelona. As a result he has no 'fans' here as someone like Tevez, who played in one of the best Boca sides of all times and thus is immensely popular, or Aguero does.

Couple this with the fact that he has yet to 'show up' for the national team and this adds pressure for him because the responsibilities and expectations are much bigger. Messi at Barca is a friend amongst many, and looks that way in the pitch. In Argentina, he just looks uncomfortable.

This causes idiots to challenge him whenever they can. Some people claim he doesn't know the anthem, because he doesn't sing it, and this apparently he took pretty personally.

To be fair, it's better now than it was a few years ago. But there are still people that ask you if you're "pro-messi or anti-messi"

True, it's hard not to notice how 'out of place' he looks in this Argentina team when compared with how comfortable (and subsequently, confident) he looks at Barca.

Thanks for the reply.

Maradona is retard...
Batista is retard...


AFA should sign Rijkaard for WC 2014.

Aristotle Onassis wrote:Reverting to a previous (and failed) formation smells too much like desperation.

We are talking about a 4-2-3-1. Why do you call that a failed formation? When was it tried earlier?

ChollaVille wrote:Maradona is retard...
Batista is retard...


AFA should sign Rijkaard for WC 2014.

1. Absolutely unquestionable

2. Debatable. I kind of empathize with him and think he deserves more time and freedom but at the same time I understand and accept that most people are against him.

3. Firstly the Argentina national team has never had a foreign coach. Several big football nations consider it demeaning to have a coach of some other nationality. The only big teams who have had foreign coaches are England and Portugal. If they open their mind to a foreign coach there might be quite a few names worth suggesting. Secondly even within Argentina I have heard alfred and other Argentines mention some good names - the likes of Bianchi and Sabella to name just two. Why they have never been given a chance is anyone's guess.

Whatever happens, Batista stays or goes and whoever is appointed, I want someone to promise me on his life that there is no chance in hell Maradona will come back at least till WC 2014 is done and dusted.

Hey guys,

finally got an account on the new forums.

You guys pretty much covered everything in here. It's been proven now that the argentine NT has many problems, ranging from defense to midfield to attack. The friendlies against Spain portugal and brazil really got my hopes up but alas, they were just friendlies. The true frailties of this team have been severely exposed. What concerns me is that it’s not just 1 area of their game which is lacking, but many.

The defense is obviously weak, with a lack of young solid CB’s. Milito is ice cold and is error prone, but he’s there to stay. He wants to play in this tournament and Batista respects that. We’ll have to make peace with that. Let’s just hope others can cover his tracks if a pacy forward comes up against him during crunch time.

You guys also mentioned the lack of an attacking mid, and I couldn’t agree more. I was screaming at the television when I saw Messi dropping to the halfway line to pick up the ball and thread a perfect pass for Tevez only to have him lose the ball as he cut in. Why was there no one in the middle for him to cross it to? Cause Messi dropped deep and is playing two roles. A sneijder-type player would be really useful for Argentina since we NEED Messi to stay close to the goal, as no one on Argentina can finish clinically like him, or even set up perfect passes like him. Tevez has been playing like garbage and it’s quite disappointing given his abilities. Lavezzi is doing OK in my opinion – his finishing isn’t great but at least he hit the target a couple of times that I remember.

Regarding the playing style – yes they try to emulate barca with the short passing, but that’s about it. They don’t play the total football that barca does, as JD mentioned. The off the ball movement isn’t there, but perhaps that’s not what they want. I don’t think they want to continue passing the ball around in circles until a gap opens like barca do. I’m pretty sure they know that they don’t have the players for that.

I think what they try to do is to keep possession long enough until they get into a position where they have Messi play off 1-2’s, deliver a crucial pass, or make an incisive run.

The reliance on Messi for creating is too burdensome for him, and would be for anyone else. You can’t drop deep to create AND be expected to score goals.

They need a good young goal scorer or a playmaker to take some of the burden off of him. They’ve got the world’s best player and he isn’t being utilized correctly IMO.

Cambiasso and Mascherano aren’t creative players and perhaps the suggestions to have them not play in tandem is better. Why play 2 DMF’s when you have a team full of attacking talent and can’t get the ball to them properly? And by the way, why was the defense looking so frail when Cambiasso and Masch are playing together? What do you guys think is going on there?

Lastly, I just want to make a point about Messi. It is a privilege to play alongside him on the same team, especially if you’re a forward. But they aren’t acting like it. They should be more clinical and perhaps try a little harder to form some chemistry with him and make his brilliant plays count for something. The guy is a ridiculously talented footballer and he does almost everything right every time he touches the ball. He does so much for the team - he draws defenders towards him and creates space for his teammates, then lays off the perfect passes to his forwards but they often don’t finish. It is truly jaw dropping how good he is, but also frustrating to see that even Messi himself gets frustrated and it gets to his head (like the bad free kick).

Zanetti and Mascherano have to take a fair shame of the blame. I expected more from them when team morale is so low. They should know that their star Lionel Messi will usually lead by example in his own way. Not verbally, but by his footballing. However, nothing was clicking against Colombia and that took away the spark that Messi usually provides with his moves. So Zanetti and Masch need to do a bit more.

Sorry for the long post, but I needed to rant about Argentina, as I see how there are a lot of issues with the team. But in the end, nothing is said and done yet, I still have FULL confidence they will get the result against Costa Rica (and hopefully play better too).

messixaviesta wrote:

ChollaVille wrote:Maradona is retard...
Batista is retard...


AFA should sign Rijkaard for WC 2014.

1. Absolutely unquestionable

2. Debatable. I kind of empathize with him and think he deserves more time and freedom but at the same time I understand and accept that most people are against him.

3. Firstly the Argentina national team has never had a foreign coach. Several big football nations consider it demeaning to have a coach of some other nationality. The only big teams who have had foreign coaches are England and Portugal. If they open their mind to a foreign coach there might be quite a few names worth suggesting. Secondly even within Argentina I have heard alfred and other Argentines mention some good names - the likes of Bianchi and Sabella to name just two. Why they have never been given a chance is anyone's guess.

Whatever happens, Batista stays or goes and whoever is appointed, I want someone to promise me on his life that there is no chance in hell Maradona will come back at least till WC 2014 is done and dusted.

He is also who I would love to see coach Argentina, but Grondona hates him and it would never happen, can't wait til Grondona retires or dies, which ever comes first, he's so corrupt it's ridiculous.

_LMG_10_ wrote:Hey guys,

finally got an account on the new forums.

You guys pretty much covered everything in here. It's been proven now that the argentine NT has many problems, ranging from defense to midfield to attack. The friendlies against Spain portugal and brazil really got my hopes up but alas, they were just friendlies. The true frailties of this team have been severely exposed. What concerns me is that it’s not just 1 area of their game which is lacking, but many.

The defense is obviously weak, with a lack of young solid CB’s. Milito is ice cold and is error prone, but he’s there to stay. He wants to play in this tournament and Batista respects that. We’ll have to make peace with that. Let’s just hope others can cover his tracks if a pacy forward comes up against him during crunch time.

You guys also mentioned the lack of an attacking mid, and I couldn’t agree more. I was screaming at the television when I saw Messi dropping to the halfway line to pick up the ball and thread a perfect pass for Tevez only to have him lose the ball as he cut in. Why was there no one in the middle for him to cross it to? Cause Messi dropped deep and is playing two roles. A sneijder-type player would be really useful for Argentina since we NEED Messi to stay close to the goal, as no one on Argentina can finish clinically like him, or even set up perfect passes like him. Tevez has been playing like garbage and it’s quite disappointing given his abilities. Lavezzi is doing OK in my opinion – his finishing isn’t great but at least he hit the target a couple of times that I remember.

Regarding the playing style – yes they try to emulate barca with the short passing, but that’s about it. They don’t play the total football that barca does, as JD mentioned. The off the ball movement isn’t there, but perhaps that’s not what they want. I don’t think they want to continue passing the ball around in circles until a gap opens like barca do. I’m pretty sure they know that they don’t have the players for that.

I think what they try to do is to keep possession long enough until they get into a position where they have Messi play off 1-2’s, deliver a crucial pass, or make an incisive run.

The reliance on Messi for creating is too burdensome for him, and would be for anyone else. You can’t drop deep to create AND be expected to score goals.

They need a good young goal scorer or a playmaker to take some of the burden off of him. They’ve got the world’s best player and he isn’t being utilized correctly IMO.

Cambiasso and Mascherano aren’t creative players and perhaps the suggestions to have them not play in tandem is better. Why play 2 DMF’s when you have a team full of attacking talent and can’t get the ball to them properly? And by the way, why was the defense looking so frail when Cambiasso and Masch are playing together? What do you guys think is going on there?

Lastly, I just want to make a point about Messi. It is a privilege to play alongside him on the same team, especially if you’re a forward. But they aren’t acting like it. They should be more clinical and perhaps try a little harder to form some chemistry with him and make his brilliant plays count for something. The guy is a ridiculously talented footballer and he does almost everything right every time he touches the ball. He does so much for the team - he draws defenders towards him and creates space for his teammates, then lays off the perfect passes to his forwards but they often don’t finish. It is truly jaw dropping how good he is, but also frustrating to see that even Messi himself gets frustrated and it gets to his head (like the bad free kick).

Zanetti and Mascherano have to take a fair shame of the blame. I expected more from them when team morale is so low. They should know that their star Lionel Messi will usually lead by example in his own way. Not verbally, but by his footballing. However, nothing was clicking against Colombia and that took away the spark that Messi usually provides with his moves. So Zanetti and Masch need to do a bit more.

Sorry for the long post, but I needed to rant about Argentina, as I see how there are a lot of issues with the team. But in the end, nothing is said and done yet, I still have FULL confidence they will get the result against Costa Rica (and hopefully play better too).

I agree, although Cambiasso has been employed as a Box to Box midfielder role, I've seen Messi and Cambiasso switch positions many times this Copa, it's quite sad really. A destroyer DM, B2B and deep lying playmaker don't go well together because Messi can't play as the main playmaker which is quite obvious because any chance he's created has been frakked up by the other forwards, Aguero miscontrolling a pass in front of goal, Lavezzi taking too long to shoot, Tevez looking toothless. etc

So Burdisso of all people told Messi off (Hey asshole, we run til the last ball!). What do you guys make of it?

BarrileteCosmico wrote:So Burdisso of all people told Messi off (Hey asshole, we run til the last ball!). What do you guys make of it?

I think Messi deserves it in a way, but at the same time you don't kick someone while they're down, Burdisso has no room to talk about someone's performance seeing as how he almost cost Argentina the game with a penalty that should have been called.

Chile 1-1 Uruguay FT
Sanchez 65' "great finish", his workrate is excellet, he created some gd chances also!
Chile was overall better.. Chile is on their way to lead this group if they win against Peru (they should)
Very gd game by Sanchez, every match i watch for him, he convince me more that he can play for Barca!

Chile is playing best football in the tournament until now "teamwork"!

messixaviesta wrote:

ChollaVille wrote:Maradona is retard...
Batista is retard...


AFA should sign Rijkaard for WC 2014.

1. Absolutely unquestionable

2. Debatable. I kind of empathize with him and think he deserves more time and freedom but at the same time I understand and accept that most people are against him.

3. Firstly the Argentina national team has never had a foreign coach. Several big football nations consider it demeaning to have a coach of some other nationality. The only big teams who have had foreign coaches are England and Portugal. If they open their mind to a foreign coach there might be quite a few names worth suggesting. Secondly even within Argentina I have heard alfred and other Argentines mention some good names - the likes of Bianchi and Sabella to name just two. Why they have never been given a chance is anyone's guess.

Whatever happens, Batista stays or goes and whoever is appointed, I want someone to promise me on his life that there is no chance in hell Maradona will come back at least till WC 2014 is done and dusted.

O.K. Than they will nevery winn anything until Messi become coach xD
Fu*k AFA, I don't care for them if they are so stupid and retarded. But I would like that Messi win something...

LMG I agree with everything you have said.

Messi cant clutch.
It isnt his fault

Europe he is a god but in south america, he struggles with the strict defending.

He is honestly given no time nor space.

"Messi is not well, I swear, I have never seen him so beaten. When we arrived in Argentina he was happy. Even more when something happened that he wasn't expecting, the fans were cheering for him and backing him everywhere. And even more after the friendlies. He was happy. But after these last games it's different, it's tough. He was never whistled off the pitch before. It was like a slap to the face." - Jorge Messi (father)

Well damn. He seems overwhelmed. His confidence gone. He needs a fantastic game. Hopefully he can have it against Costa Rica.

Also, apparently Messi hasn't been leaving the training grounds lately, even when the players get the afternoons to themselves. When he does go out, he comes back very early.

messixaviesta wrote:

Aristotle Onassis wrote:Reverting to a previous (and failed) formation smells too much like desperation.

We are talking about a 4-2-3-1. Why do you call that a failed formation? When was it tried earlier?

Sorry, I thought Maradona used this at the beginning of the last World Cup. My mistake there. (He actually used a 4-3-3, often closer to a 4-2-4 with only Veron and Mascherano in the midfield.)

BarrileteCosmico wrote:So Burdisso of all people told Messi off (Hey asshole, we run til the last ball!). What do you guys make of it?

I know they had a fight but I can't believe it was this bad. See it's expected that other Argentine players, especially a sort of a mediocre player like Burdisso, will be in awe of Messi. From where would he get the cheek to say this to him? Would he not fear being dropped by the coach since he is not playing well anyway? I think this is a gross media exaggeration. If by any chance this is true then things are just going from bad to worse.

BarrileteCosmico wrote:LMG I agree with everything you have said.

I second that. It was a really great post to read.