Re: AC Milan 4 - 0 Arsenal: That was pretty abysmal, wasn't it?

by SamuelJayC Wed Feb 15, 2012 11:09 pm

Not going to say anything on this thread tonight - need to cool off, and reflect back on the performance and the current scenario tomorrow.

by RealGunner Wed Feb 15, 2012 11:11 pm

GoonerJay29 wrote:Just wanted to add, that tonights result is not just Wenger's fault, but the players as well. No one could come out of that game with their head held high.

+1

by Jay29 Wed Feb 15, 2012 11:12 pm

Arsenal this season against rest of EPL top 7 (in all comps) plus AC Milan: P9 W1 D1 L7 GF9 GA23 #afc #mcfc #mufc #thfc #cfc #lfc #nufc #acm

Neutral

by RealGunner Wed Feb 15, 2012 11:15 pm

Chelsea

by Emaharg Wed Feb 15, 2012 11:23 pm

GoonerJay29 wrote:Just wanted to add, that tonights result is not just Wenger's fault, but the players as well. No one could come out of that game with their head held high.

The truth, no manager could of done anything tonight with how the players preformed.

by DuringTheWar Wed Feb 15, 2012 11:29 pm

GoonerJay29 wrote:Arsenal this season against rest of EPL top 7 (in all comps) plus AC Milan: P9 W1 D1 L7 GF9 GA23 #afc #mcfc #mufc #thfc #cfc #lfc #nufc #acm

the significant thing is that the one win was against the other top 4 team that is a shadow of their former selves, that we are fighting with for 4th place. Said it before, this season isnt about being a great team, its just about being better than cheslea

by SamuelJayC Wed Feb 15, 2012 11:29 pm

GoonerJay29 wrote:Arsenal this season against rest of EPL top 7 (in all comps) plus AC Milan: P9 W1 D1 L7 GF9 GA23 #afc #mcfc #mufc #thfc #cfc #lfc #nufc #acm

Let's not forget results against Udinese, Dortmund and Marseille - but it's true, we aren't good enough against the best.

by SamuelJayC Wed Feb 15, 2012 11:42 pm

Cheer yourself up with the crazy italian commentator milan fan guy....worth watching.

http://www.101greatgoals.com/gvideos/tiziano-crudelis-mental-commentary-for-ac-milan-4-arsenal-0/

by REWB Wed Feb 15, 2012 11:46 pm

Samuelj29060 wrote:Cheer yourself up with the crazy italian commentator milan fan guy....worth watching.

http://www.101greatgoals.com/gvideos/tiziano-crudelis-mental-commentary-for-ac-milan-4-arsenal-0/

are you fcking kidding me? lool why the hell would i want to watch that?

he is funny so what? this will just make me even more angry

by Emaharg Wed Feb 15, 2012 11:49 pm

I guess the thing to remember is Liverpool fans have gone through much tougher times than us, comparing our situation theirs we have been through nothing. We are still 4th in the EPL and in the FA Cup as well. Champions League would of been a fairy tale if we won it.

by SamuelJayC Thu Feb 16, 2012 12:06 am

REWB wrote:
Samuelj29060 wrote:Cheer yourself up with the crazy italian commentator milan fan guy....worth watching.

http://www.101greatgoals.com/gvideos/tiziano-crudelis-mental-commentary-for-ac-milan-4-arsenal-0/

are you fcking kidding me? lool why the hell would i want to watch that?

he is funny so what? this will just make me even more angry

This guy is insanely funny at all times. Not just tonight.

by SamuelJayC Thu Feb 16, 2012 12:07 am

AC Milan 4 - 0 Arsenal: That was pretty abysmal, wasn't it? - Page 2 Alu6v1DCEAI2N6c

Bye Thierry. Legend.

by Jay29 Thu Feb 16, 2012 12:16 am

http://www.zonalmarking.net/2012/02/15/milan-4-0-arsenal-tactics/

Zonal Marking's summation of the tactics in the match, which elaborates more on what I mention in my own "analysis".

Or if you prefer, the conclusion of the article, which is pretty accurate as far as I can tell:

These are clearly two very different sides – good in some areas, bad in others. One’s strengths are the other’s weaknesses, and vice-versa. Here, one side focused strongly on putting energy into their preferred areas, with Milan dominating the centre ground and outmuscling Arsenal throughout. The away side, however, barely even attacked down the flanks, and it wasn’t really clear what Arsenal’s gameplan was, or what they were trying to do on the ball.

Milan certainly played well, but their performance was more about maximum efficiency than great skill. They actually only managed five shots on target in the game, and there were rarely slick passing moves or periods of utter dominance from them. They were just brilliantly ruthless when they went forward – ZM has questioned whether the approach of bullying their way past opponents is good enough to defeat top opposition, as shown by their poor record against big sides in Serie A – but Arsenal were weak, and Milan were brutal.

This is a genuinely shocking result for Arsenal. In terms of style, Milan seemed the ideal side for them to face, because of their vulnerability to pace and width, but Arsenal didn’t show either of those features here. It’s staggering that Arsenal didn’t go wide more readily, and difficult to explain.

In one of their long-running spats at the turn of the century, Arsene Wenger once commented upon Sir Alex Ferguson, saying that “His weakness is that he doesn’t think he has a weakness.” Wenger’s weakness is that he doesn’t seem to know his side’s strength.

by The Franchise Thu Feb 16, 2012 12:29 am

Wenger said something about always letting balls over the top of the defence, I have to agree with him. Last season vs Barca, tonight against Milan I felt this was a problem.

Maybe im reading too much into it, but I noticed that these have happened when both Kos and Verm are in the center. I always was concerned with those two together because both strike me as those who enjoy coming to close down rather than waiting and reading. But these two games give me some kind of evidence, albiet not much.

I know Kos is very mobile and I often see him covering round and picking off runs. But I also notice, many of those are along the floor.

But balls over the top, they seem to really trouble Arsenal when those two are paired.

Am I reading too much into it?

by dmize Thu Feb 16, 2012 1:11 am

^No, I agree. That's why I thought we missed Mert quite a bit, him and Kosc/Verm are a good pair for the reason you mentioned. Mert is less aggressive than both Verm/Kosc, he'll sit back and read allowing the other CB to roam a bit.

by Amar Thu Feb 16, 2012 1:25 am

Totally outplayed by Milan.

Our performance was shocking, but they deserve alot of credit for capitalizing every chance they got.

I blame the players more than the tactics to be honest. Silly mistakes by Szcz and Sagna/Kos cost us the early goals, and we were chasing from then on. Arteta was supposed to be the cool head in the middle, but he was anything but at times. Lost the ball many times and couldn't really get us going.

The pitch was an obvious handicap, more on us then them because it totally took out the fluidity on the wings, but still no exuse.

The tie is basically over because one Milan goal at the Emirates will kill us, and I think Wenger should consider turning our full attention to teh FA Cup and getting that 4th spot now.

by SamuelJayC Thu Feb 16, 2012 1:48 am

My take on game:

First choice defence?

The most disappointing thing is we played with our first choice defence, and yet looked horrendous. Yes, Gibbs was making his first start in 4 months, and Sagna is only just back from injury, but this was the best we could put out, and it was all over the place.

The same back four played against Udinese (1-0 win) and Newcastle (0-0 on opening day) in August, evidently keeping clean sheets in both games.

Maybe we have to re-assess what Arsenal's best back four is. Maybe Mertesacker has to play every game when fit, or maybe Santos is the best option at left-back.

Of course, the current back four - Sagna Koscielny Vermaelen Gibbs - has to have a run of games, this is clear. However, that won't happen now with Koscielny suffering a knee injury last night.

It's all very disturbing.

Losing to a not-so-great Milan

Firstly, Milan are the Italian champions, and filled with a mixture of world-class performers and vast amounts of experience. They have secured a 2-2 at the Camp Nou this season in the group stages, and recently won 2-1 away at Udinese, which we all know is a tough place to go to.

However, this is not a premier Milan side. It's not as strong as past years in some areas. And Allegri's men have struggled against the major sides this year in Serie A.

Milan 2-2 Lazio - Napoli 3-1 Milan - Milan 1-1 Udinese - Juventus 2-0 Milan - Fiorentina 0-0 Milan - Milan 0-1 Inter - Lazio 2-0 Milan + Milan 0-0 Napoli.

All results for Milan in their championship this season. The best signs often take points off this Milan side. It makes a defeat of FOUR goals hard to take. But what's probably more disappointing, is the fact that Arsenal failed to net an away goal.

Milan's back four - Abate Mexes Silva Antonini - is hardly filled with world beaters, Silva apart. Antonini is considered a severe weak link by most in Italy, and whilst Abate has developed into a top attacking full-back, his defending, notably in Milan derbies in the past year or two, has cost Milan goals - most recently against Inter in January when his error allowed Milito to net the only goal.

On paper, Arsenal arguably had the stronger defence, though the supporting cast aren't on the same level as Milan's.

Walcott against Antonini should have been a blast for Theo, but like against Sunderland on Saturday, the winger was anonymous. When Walcott came off, there was no pace in the line-up, until Oxlade-Chamberlain came on with 20-odd minutes to go.

The biggest weakness of this Milan side is facing pace - hence the pitch surface tactics - but with only Walcott starting, and then no out-and-out pace between HT and AOC's introduction, Arsenal failed to take advantage.

Wenger's team selection

The back four picked itself, but the selection of Ramsey and Rosicky was, in hindsight, a poor decision. Rosicky on the left is something that I don't quite understand. Was the prime objective to protect a left-back who has been missing for 4 months? Whilst working hard, the Czech captain had no impact going forward, and was clearly out of position. Embarrassingly, one of Rosicky's shots when out for a throw-in. Gone are the days, when TR7 could play from the left with any effect (like the 1st half of 07-08 season before injury).

Ramsey's selection was what I predicted beforehand, mostly because of his energy and enthusiasm, but the midfielder had a torrid evening, misplacing several passes. To try and solidify the midfield, Wenger moved Ramsey to right-mid after HT before AOC came on. Ramsey may have scored at Sunderland, but his performances in the past month or two have dropped rapidly.

The absences of Diaby and Wilshere for the entire season thus far are starting to take their toll on Arteta, Song and Ramsey, who seem exhausted. In contrast, Milan looked full of life - with Van Bommel, Nocerino and Emanuelson (on for injured Seedorf early on) excellent in midfield and Boateng just in front outstanding.

by tsgooner1 Thu Feb 16, 2012 2:10 am

The Franchise wrote:Wenger said something about always letting balls over the top of the defence, I have to agree with him. Last season vs Barca, tonight against Milan I felt this was a problem.

Maybe im reading too much into it, but I noticed that these have happened when both Kos and Verm are in the center. I always was concerned with those two together because both strike me as those who enjoy coming to close down rather than waiting and reading. But these two games give me some kind of evidence, albiet not much.

I know Kos is very mobile and I often see him covering round and picking off runs. But I also notice, many of those are along the floor.

But balls over the top, they seem to really trouble Arsenal when those two are paired.

Am I reading too much into it?

No I think it was just vermaelan and kos havent played together in so long that they had a bit of communicaton problem, i think chemistry from playing together can fix that, plus vermaelen has been playing lb for like te last 2 months.

by lenear1030 Thu Feb 16, 2012 2:50 am

no communication issues w/ verm and kosc. vermaelen was just off plain and simple. his problems weren't even related to his cb partner. he couldnt clear the ball and struggled in 1 on 1 situations.

im not going to moan and groan about this loss or call for wenger's head because he wont be gone unless he leaves on his own terms. but the fact is we simply got outclassed on the pitch. plain and simple. we aren't a title winning or legitimate title contending side right now. no exaggerations and no pessimism, just realism.

for the rest of the season i'd just like to see the club develop young talent, keep players healthy and if possible finish 4th in the league. anything else is asking way too much

by SamuelJayC Thu Feb 16, 2012 2:58 am

Read all my views on the game here:

http://samuelj29060.wordpress.com/2012/02/16/milan-4-0-arsenal-the-fallout/

by Kwame2u Thu Feb 16, 2012 5:53 am

Never have i been so disgusted with an Arsenal performance. I have always been an advocate of Wenger but I feel he got the tactics completely wrong.

15 minutes into the game and 1 former players name kept popping up in my head; Samir Nasri. This was the sorta game he would have taken on, if playing through the midddle. He would have been direct and tried to force his way through with his footwork.

Ramsey on the other hand did F**kall. He slowed down our attacks and counters. I think even Rozza would have done better through the middle with his more direct play.

van Bommel basically had nothing to do the whole match.

Heck, even Arshavin would have been better on the wings today. Their fullbacks werent pushing up so there would be no need to drop back. He would b willing to take them on and would have sent in a whole lot more crosses.

Aside from the defensive lapses, I put a large portion of the blame on Wenger's tactics and team selection.

by sbaggio Thu Feb 16, 2012 6:27 am

Keep your chins up! Same thing happened to us last year.

by MJ Thu Feb 16, 2012 10:20 am

aleumdance wrote:
Happy Birthday MJ

Thanks mate Smile

by RealGunner Thu Feb 16, 2012 10:36 am

The Franchise wrote:Wenger said something about always letting balls over the top of the defence, I have to agree with him. Last season vs Barca, tonight against Milan I felt this was a problem.

Maybe im reading too much into it, but I noticed that these have happened when both Kos and Verm are in the center. I always was concerned with those two together because both strike me as those who enjoy coming to close down rather than waiting and reading. But these two games give me some kind of evidence, albiet not much.

I know Kos is very mobile and I often see him covering round and picking off runs. But I also notice, many of those are along the floor.

But balls over the top, they seem to really trouble Arsenal when those two are paired.

Am I reading too much into it?

Thats completely true.

This is why Mertesacker is important to this team, and probably the reason why wenger bought him.

by Spider Thu Feb 16, 2012 11:49 am

Watching the full highlight again now

1st goal was Totally Gibbs + Rosicky + Vermaelen's fault , Gibbs + Rosicky both didn't put pressure on the DUDE who played the chip pass , Vermaelen should have done more than just watching the ball go over him

2nd Offside

Ramsey Total lol - the rest were playing as if it is the first time to play football , they were very shocked (WHY?)

*i couldn't watch the rest of the highlights ( we were SO pathetic ) .

by Sushi Master Thu Feb 16, 2012 12:03 pm

Yes, I also agree with Franchise. I've said this a few times before, but Koscielny and Vermaelen are far too similar to work together. Vermaelen isn't the physical beast we make him out to be, and his positioning and game reading are not world class. Mertesacker is. He compliments Koscielny perfectly because he's the sort that hangs back and clears anything with ice cool nerves. In case of trouble, Kos comes and helps him out with his great speed. But Kos is never left open, simply due to Mert's excelent positioning. He's always in his line. The Kos injury also changed the game, since we all know of Djourou's reckless ways.

The game? Horrible. Rosicky was frakking awesome I have to say. Only guy with drive out of all that midfield, and was sadly deployed out wide for some reason. When we all saw that possession wasn't working, why not sub in AOC, and put Rosicky down the middle which is how we've gotten our positive results? Milan's weaknesses are it's flanks, and we didn't do whit down the flanks. In the first half everything was down Walcott's flank, with the middle completely null due to Ramsey sucking too much. Arteta is good, but he cannot singlehandedly control a very physical and tough 3 man midfield. Can I repeat the point about Ramsey sucking? We've played miles better with him benched, I dunno if it's a confidence thing or just bad form, but he pretty much breaks all our plays, does not short pass well enough and lacks drive when it really matters.

God, good thing Gervinho is coming back because I can't stand seeing him anymore. I also agree with the point that our best players sucked... Sagna wasn't his usual rock, Vermaelen was all over the place, Song had his usual DM/AM personality syndrome and van Persie and Henry were sadly extremely isolated due to the suck that was behind them. I hope Kos ain't out for that long, because we really don't need another CB injury in such a critical time.

I'm all out for deploying our reserve side in the home game... there's no way we're winning 5-0. We should concentrate on 4th place and winning the FA cup which would be a welcome boost to morale and finally kill the annoying trophy drought.

Crap, crap display.

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