RedEyesWhiteBeard wrote:yes but thats not the problem, what the lower league clubs are having problems with is GAINING fans and moving forward. not maintain the fans they already have. PL B side will make it even harder to gain fans and to move forward.

In Germany the proper clubs don't worry the 2nd teams take away their fans, it is more the other way round. Proper teams usually bring away fans to the matches while the 2nd teams don't, so playing against 2nd teams gives lower gate money than playing against proper teams.

english_jewel wrote:Both Spain and Germany have this system and guess what, their NT's are the best in the world...while England's, not so much

Wake up FA.

Spain had this system since a long time back , so any argument that states the Spanish NT successes are because of B teams is laughable . Even Germany's system i doubt has an effect on the NT .

Bigger clubs will benefit from the system , no doubt . Not NT's .

rwo power wrote:In Germany we have 2nd teams (or U23 teams) of about all BL (and even lower) clubs. The 2nd teams are allowed to play up to the 3rd league, with a maximum of four 2nd teams being allowed in the 3rd league (if more qualify they still have to stay one league below and only the best four make it to 3rd league).

A similar structure might be feasible in England . That'd mean a maximum of 4 reserve teams in League One , and the rest in the lower leagues .

I'm for the idea as well. It's the execution of it that will create problems and I can see why the FA doesn't want to do it.

How many clubs will have B teams and where will they be entered into the league system? If all 20 Premier League clubs got a B team, then you've got to enter 20 new clubs somewhere in the lower echelons of the English league system.

You could limit the number of teams. Say only the top six teams in the country got one, that's not really fair on everyone else. Would those team be confiend to the poor reserve league?

Obviously for B team to be implemented some sacrifices have to be made. Unfortunately, there's too big a divide between the Premier League and the Football League. B teams aren't going to steal fans away from other clubs, and not many B teams are going to unbeatable forces that lower league team cannot beat.

I think an U23 league or U21 league would just be a whole lot more practical.

Is there actually anything stopping big clubs B teams from working up from the bottom? I thought they wanted admission straight into the league without going through the non league first.

Working from the bottom is far from ideal since there's so many leagues. It'd take about seven years of consecutive promotions to just get into League 2, and during that time you'd have full professionals playing against amateurs and semi-professionals.

Admission straight into the league would be much, much better but they can't boot out league teams or deny Conference sides promotion to make it happen. Only other alternative would be to expand the leagues, but then 24 teams is already too much. The schedule would be ridiculous with even more.

AFAIK in Germany, second teams originally had to start from bottom or they could get a starting place of another team that dropped out for some reason. As for which teams have second teams - in Germany IIRC every team has a second team. I mean, even RWO (3rd league atm) has a second team that currently plays in the 5th league and that had to work its way up from the lowest echelons).

As everything, it isn't about doing things within one season, but it has to be built up over years. But then, we know that the English FA has a problem with long-term planning

GoonerJay29 wrote:Working from the bottom is far from ideal since there's so many leagues. It'd take about seven years of consecutive promotions to just get into League 2, and during that time you'd have full professionals playing against amateurs and semi-professionals.

Admission straight into the league would be much, much better but they can't boot out league teams or deny Conference sides promotion to make it happen. Only other alternative would be to expand the leagues, but then 24 teams is already too much. The schedule would be ridiculous with even more.

Well you have to start somewhere and its only fair these B teams start from the bottom.

I understand your view (this post and your previous one) and see your point, but I think you said it yourself, you have to sacrifice something.

In my opinion, the youth devolpment in England is one of, if not the biggest footballing issue.

I understand there are already alot of teams, but realistically you have to do something.

I have heard about the u23 league and things like that, but does that really prepare young players to make the step up to first team football..for me, it really doesnt.

I can only use my knowledge of Spain here and I think one of the biggest advantages to Barca B players is they get to play against grown men of a high quality and learn to play thier game regardless of physical disadvantages.

I'd be a bit weary about the amount of time it'd take to get these B teams playing at a decent level, although I suppose farming out the better talents to Football League club could mitigate that slightly.

Of course, I don't think the FA would be so keen on such a long-term thing.

Another alternative would be to have more feeder clubs for the top teams and relax the rules around loaning players more. Maybe have it so that the lower league club doesn't have to pay any wages. This isn't really ideal for the player, though, since he won't become used to playing with a similar squad of players all the time.

I was also thinking about an U23 league, where the winners get promoted into the Conference, or something along those lines. Would require some league reshuffling but tha'ts pretty much unavoidable, anyway.

Let's see it this way: Right now nothing is done and people just talk about what could be changed. IIRC they did that 10 years ago, too... and 20 years ago etc, too. Still nothing really changed. So where is the problem letting them start at the bottom and work their way up for 7 years when the other option is they will still just talk about it in 10 years, too? That way they actually win three years

I understand and completely agree with that logic. For whatever reason though the FA doesn't. Managers like Wenger, Ferguson, Benitez, Ancelotti and now Villas-Boas have advocated for B teams but the idea is always dismissed as rubbish by the experts and the like.

On the other hand, we as a nation are starting to acknowledge the problems at youth and reserve level, so maybe B teams is in their thinking or some sort of reform is in their thinking. Changes have to happen sooner rather than later, though.

I've seen the idea discussed amongst lower league fans and a large portion of them are against it as well. I'm not sure if this a reflection of what the clubs think. Would be interesting to get the opinions of lower league clubs, as they will be heavily effected by this eventually should it come to fruition.

Indeed. What I find quite strange though is those supposed experts who shoot the idea down seem to never come up with a superior idea at all, normally no idea whatsoever. I dont know, maybe their is a level of denial?

The problem is the English FA, if you ask me. I mean, after each unsuccessful run of the English NT they talk about that there needs to be a change at grassroots level, they need to promote more English players etc. But that reaches back at least 20+ years now, too.

The German FA got really annoyed around 2000 and they decided things needed to be changed and they did change things - and it is only since the last 3-4 years that we could actually see results.

In England, the FA experts just talk. And somehow I fear they will still talk in 2022...

I say Roman should buy another club and use that club to give our youngsters experience.

Should definitely not happen

Its ok for glory fans to say yes blah blah, but consider the more traditional English fans who support their local teams.

We are one of the few countries that have a decent competitive league system throughout the football leagues.

Smaller teams are struggling as it is, mostly just getting by. They wouldn't stand a chance against teams full of premier league reserves.

Plus allot of teams rely on taking players on loan from teams in leagues above them.

It would have more of a negative affect than positive one.

Plus teams would have to be sacrificed for the B teams to take their places in the leagues.

It might of worked in the favour of Spain & Germanys nation teams, but if it was to happen here I think it would stagnate our league with only a few teams dominating and the rest of the teams just making the numbers up and not offering any competition. Like La Liga.

rwo power wrote:The problem is the English FA, if you ask me. I mean, after each unsuccessful run of the English NT they talk about that there needs to be a change at grassroots level, they need to promote more English players etc. But that reaches back at least 20+ years now, too.

The German FA got really annoyed around 2000 and they decided things needed to be changed and they did change things - and it is only since the last 3-4 years that we could actually see results.

In England, the FA experts just talk. And somehow I fear they will still talk in 2022...

hypocrite rwo, hys


believe it or not, the coaches who should be developing these youngsters go on overbuying english player like hell

back in 2008, that idiot Redknapp and his boyfriend from another mother Alladyce did their best to accuse arsenal of not signing english players or developing any academy players, and accusing arsneal of buying too many foriegners..

now in 2012, those mugs have not done half of what Arsenal has done with academy, thanks to EPL25 man squad rule arsenal have brought in Szczesny,wilshere,frimpong,miquel, yennaris, afobe,aneke and ozyakup this season

kyle bartely is on loan to Rangers, ALL THOSE MUGS WHO ACCUSED WENGER OF NOT DEVELOPING ENGLISH DON'T HAVE ANY YOUNGSTERE GOOD ENOUGH FOR RANGERS..

now look, if they can't simply produce youth, you think they would care about B-team?

the biggest support for B-team is wenger , WHO IS A FRENCHIE!!!

and finally. take a look at who controls the English U-21... then you would know why B-Teams would never work..

Stuart Pearce is hated by most top youth coaches in england cuz the only thing he tells his boys is too

"HOOF IT SON, HOOF IT"

aleumdance wrote:

rwo power wrote:The problem is the English FA, if you ask me. I mean, after each unsuccessful run of the English NT they talk about that there needs to be a change at grassroots level, they need to promote more English players etc. But that reaches back at least 20+ years now, too.

The German FA got really annoyed around 2000 and they decided things needed to be changed and they did change things - and it is only since the last 3-4 years that we could actually see results.

In England, the FA experts just talk. And somehow I fear they will still talk in 2022...

hypocrite rwo, hys


believe it or not, the coaches who should be developing these youngsters go on overbuying english player like hell

back in 2008, that idiot Redknapp and his boyfriend from another mother Alladyce did their best to accuse arsenal of not signing english players or developing any academy players, and accusing arsneal of buying too many foriegners..

now in 2012, those mugs have not done half of what Arsenal has done with academy, thanks to EPL25 man squad rule arsenal have brought in Szczesny,wilshere,frimpong,miquel, yennaris, afobe,aneke and ozyakup this season

kyle bartely is on loan to Rangers, ALL THOSE MUGS WHO ACCUSED WENGER OF NOT DEVELOPING ENGLISH DON'T HAVE ANY YOUNGSTERE GOOD ENOUGH FOR RANGERS..

now look, if they can't simply produce youth, you think they would care about B-team?

the biggest support for B-team is wenger , WHO IS A FRENCHIE!!!

They had a point TBH. If you look at arsenals squad the majority of players were bought or taken from other clubs youth systems after the development process has started.

Very few of Arsenals players are true products of the arsenal youth system.

Smaller teams are struggling as it is, mostly just getting by. They wouldn't stand a chance against teams full of premier league reserves.

This wouldn't be the case, in my opinion. The fact that there are only two B teams in Spain's second tier, both in the bottom half of the table, suggests that the reserves and youth of the top tier teams are not very strong.

Also, if you look at some of the friendlies between Premier League reserve sides and lower league sides, the reserve sides don't do that well.

Plus allot of teams rely on taking players on loan from teams in leagues above them.

They would still be able to. Nothing would be there to stop teams loaning players from B sides, especially if the B team is playing at too low a level for certain players.

It might of worked in the favour of Spain & Germanys nation teams, but if it was to happen here I think it would stagnate our league with only a few teams dominating and the rest of the teams just making the numbers up and not offering any competition. Like La Liga.

I don't see how this would be the case. B teams seldom make the second division, and rules prevent them from playing in the same division as their main team. If a B team finishes in a promotion spot, the spot gets given to the team below them, like in the Segunda Division last season: Barcelona B finished 6th, so the Valladolid in 7th got into the play-offs.

Furthermore, La Liga's perceived lack of competitiveness is mainly down to money. The injection of B teams is not going to make the Premier League any less competitive, or the lower leagues any less competitive. They'd be there because they've earned it.

and finally. take a look at who controls the English U-21... then you would know why B-Teams would never work..

That's not only completely irrelevant, but doesn't make sense. Clubs would assign their own coaches to their B teams and they would train and play however the club wants them to. For example, Arsenal would not assign a coach who plays hoof ball and ignores technical skill to their B team, would they?

GyansDancingBoots wrote:

aleumdance wrote:

rwo power wrote:The problem is the English FA, if you ask me. I mean, after each unsuccessful run of the English NT they talk about that there needs to be a change at grassroots level, they need to promote more English players etc. But that reaches back at least 20+ years now, too.

The German FA got really annoyed around 2000 and they decided things needed to be changed and they did change things - and it is only since the last 3-4 years that we could actually see results.

In England, the FA experts just talk. And somehow I fear they will still talk in 2022...

hypocrite rwo, hys


believe it or not, the coaches who should be developing these youngsters go on overbuying english player like hell

back in 2008, that idiot Redknapp and his boyfriend from another mother Alladyce did their best to accuse arsenal of not signing english players or developing any academy players, and accusing arsneal of buying too many foriegners..

now in 2012, those mugs have not done half of what Arsenal has done with academy, thanks to EPL25 man squad rule arsenal have brought in Szczesny,wilshere,frimpong,miquel, yennaris, afobe,aneke and ozyakup this season

kyle bartely is on loan to Rangers, ALL THOSE MUGS WHO ACCUSED WENGER OF NOT DEVELOPING ENGLISH DON'T HAVE ANY YOUNGSTERE GOOD ENOUGH FOR RANGERS..

now look, if they can't simply produce youth, you think they would care about B-team?

the biggest support for B-team is wenger , WHO IS A FRENCHIE!!!

They had a point TBH. If you look at arsenals squad the majority of players were bought or taken from other clubs youth systems after the development process has started.

Very few of Arsenals players are true products of the arsenal youth system.

what annoys me is

when Barcelona do it, ITS NORMAL, but when its Arsenal, everyonce scream POACHING!!!

and besides, now Arsenal have tried to bring in more English, but we never get noticed for it, but when we sign Jon Toral harper.. even spanish media tried making up bull$hit poach news when its clear his agent (PEP'S BROTHER) forced the move

and finally. take a look at who controls the English U-21... then you would know why B-Teams would never work..

That's not only completely irrelevant, but doesn't make sense. Clubs would assign their own coaches to their B teams and they would train and play however the club wants them to. For example, Arsenal would not assign a coach who plays hoof ball and ignores technical skill to their B team, would they? [/quote]

I mean in implementing B-teams and the people who would have a major decider, starut pearce is the last person B-team supporter needs

Why, though? Ignoring the fact that Pearce would not be involved in the implementation of B teams, his questionable playing style does not change the fact that he knows how to coach a youth team as his record with the U21's shows.

To be honest actually I think the 25 man squad limit has already improved the situation.

Previously when teams had massive squads reserve games were always filled with fringe players and seniors who didn't quite make it into the first team.

I cant speak for all teams but I know in sunderlands case these days when I watch reserve games they are primarily made up of our youth players, with the odd first teamer getting a run out after returning from injury.

I think its down to this why we have started seeing returns from our academy system and players from our youth set up making the first team. It has only happened in the last few years.

The problem is though they scrapped the reserve team league and made the youth team league regional.

I think if they put some more support and infrastructure into the reserve and youth leagues it would be of a massive benefit. Bring back the national system and make it more competitive.

I dont think Peace's style of play has much influence overall. They dont spend that much time training with the u21s. And even so only a select few get called up.

How long have they had B teams in spain for