They struggled to qualify to WC 2002 without Ronaldo, then he came after a 2 years injury and scored 8 goals and guided them to trophy.

How many goals would Messi score with that Brazil team?

Future wrote:

Luca wrote:

Future wrote:Prime Ronaldo on this Barcelona team would score around 100 easily.

It's kinda pointless arguing with Barcelona fans bcuz no matter what you say, they will never agree that someone is better than Messi.

Let Messi win WC as the main player and then we can talk until then, there's no debate that Ronaldo ranks higher than Messi on all time list. I could care less how man CL titles he got. If you wanan go by that i guess Paolo Maldini >>> Messi then

It's really difficult to try and discredit Barca fans by making up your own statistics about Ronaldo in Barcelona's team and keep a straight face while doing it

Ronaldo hasn't touched Messi's level of consistency [because of injuries] which is why I rank Messi above him

No, Messi hasn't won a World Cup but he's better than most who have
It's funny how it constantly flips from individual achievements, like goal scoring and the ballon d'or, to team achievements like the Champions League and the World Cup, when you can't use both criteria without contradicting the other.

They both were surrounded by incredible teams and both were the standout player for their respective teams

Ronaldo is if not the most consistent striker of all time... he didn't need anyone creating for him. He was the most consistent striker before the injuries occurred and even after injuries he put up i believe 3 seasons of 30+ goals with Madrid even with his struggling weight.

The Inter teams that Ronaldo played on were incredible? lol

i never flip flopped between ind. awards, teams awards, etc....

I meant in general (at the flip flop comments, it's happened in this thread is all I meant by it- since they both severely contradict each other)

How is Ronaldo more consistent than Messi has been since 2009?
I mean, I don't mean to say Ronaldo is inconsistent but Messi's numbers alone in this time are ridiculous

Ronaldo was a better goalscorer and his sheer explosiveness could be more exciting to watch, I cant think of anyone that could break a defence like ronaldo, almost like he could run through a brick wall with the ball lol. But overall id say messi is better than pre-injury ronaldo. Simply as he his passing and his dribbling is more of a threat anywhere on the pitch. But i guess its unfair comparison, i mean pre injury ronaldo was just a kid really, i can think back when messi was 19, yes he had some classy moments, but he was nothing like he is now

Luca wrote:

Future wrote:

Luca wrote:

It's really difficult to try and discredit Barca fans by making up your own statistics about Ronaldo in Barcelona's team and keep a straight face while doing it

Ronaldo hasn't touched Messi's level of consistency [because of injuries] which is why I rank Messi above him

No, Messi hasn't won a World Cup but he's better than most who have
It's funny how it constantly flips from individual achievements, like goal scoring and the ballon d'or, to team achievements like the Champions League and the World Cup, when you can't use both criteria without contradicting the other.

They both were surrounded by incredible teams and both were the standout player for their respective teams

Ronaldo is if not the most consistent striker of all time... he didn't need anyone creating for him. He was the most consistent striker before the injuries occurred and even after injuries he put up i believe 3 seasons of 30+ goals with Madrid even with his struggling weight.

The Inter teams that Ronaldo played on were incredible? lol

i never flip flopped between ind. awards, teams awards, etc....

I meant in general (at the flip flop comments, it's happened in this thread is all I meant by it- since they both severely contradict each other)

How is Ronaldo more consistent than Messi has been since 2009?
I mean, I don't mean to say Ronaldo is inconsistent but Messi's numbers alone in this time are ridiculous

I never said Ronaldo was more consistent than Messi....I said he was consistent because you said Ronaldo hasn't touched Messi's consistency....by your logic only players who can touch Messi's consistency is Pele and Puskas?

Just look at the system that Messi is playing in....Hence why he's getting this many goals and breaking records left and right. If he played on any other team, do u truly believe that he'd be scoring the same amount of goals? (Hence why in my previous comments i said Ronaldo would be scoring even more goals if he played for Barcelona right now. ) Why isn't he scoring this many goals for Argentina then? he's a product of Barcelonas system point blank. 75% of his goals come from Xavi, Iniesta and Alves feeding him the ball for the tap in.

Sorry, consistency was maybe the wrong term to use.
I meant consistently hitting his goals/assists each season hasn't really been done, certainly not by Ronaldo

And yeah, I would agree that Messi (to a degree), is a product of the system he plays in, that's not arguable. He suits the play style perfectly but I fail to see how that is a criticism against him

Even if I agree that 75% of his goals are directly assisted and should be scored, that still leaves 25% which are credited to his sheer brilliance on the field, and when you score as many goals as him that's certainly a lot

He scored 12 goals in 9 appearances for Argentina in 2012, I'd say he's come along but has a lot to prove at the same time for his national team

I don't believe Messi playing for Barcelona takes anything away from his achievements and what he's currently doing.

What I believe Future is referring to is that we could hypothetically place Messi in any other "top league" in a "top club" and he would not do what he does in Barcelona.

And I strongly believe that.

put Messi in any other top team, and he will have it just as easy to score. Remember while Messi wont have Xavi or Iniesta, he wont either have to face park busses every game...

I still doubt it. And it's not like it's ever going to happen.
Messi doesn't need to leave Barcelona nor does anyone want him to because it'd be ridiculous to think so.

I just don't see Messi going into a team in a difference country/league and fitting in like he does so well in Barcelona.

Why?

Messi in any other top club would still be the best player in the world. If you think that Messi only excels(sp?) because of the possession base style of football, then you have obviously not seen that much of Messi. I bet that Messi would be even better if he played in a counter-attacking based team, seeing as he is almost like a one-man counter-attacking team thanks to his ball control, dribbling abilites, speed and as you know, in a counter-attacking team, he would have alot more space when he attacks's so he could use his abilities to a higher level..

A couple of examples..

Spoiler:

Luca wrote:Sorry, consistency was maybe the wrong term to use.
I meant consistently hitting his goals/assists each season hasn't really been done, certainly not by Ronaldo

And yeah, I would agree that Messi (to a degree), is a product of the system he plays in, that's not arguable. He suits the play style perfectly but I fail to see how that is a criticism against him

Even if I agree that 75% of his goals are directly assisted and should be scored, that still leaves 25% which are credited to his sheer brilliance on the field, and when you score as many goals as him that's certainly a lot

He scored 12 goals in 9 appearances for Argentina in 2012, I'd say he's come along but has a lot to prove at the same time for his national team

Ronaldo is a pure striker.... he's not supposed to be getting assists lol his main objective is to score and that's what he did.

Ronaldo had NO ONE to create for him and he didn't really need to. He scored by himself. You tell him to put the ball in the net and he'd do it. He was by far the better one on one player than Messi. There wasn't a defender in the world that could stop him in his prime. Not even Maldini or Nesta. He toyed with every defender he went up against. Serie A in the 90's was the best league overall of any era. That should tell you something.

harhar11 wrote:Why?

Messi in any other top club would still be the best player in the world. If you think that Messi only excels(sp?) because of the possession base style of football, then you have obviously not seen that much of Messi. I bet that Messi would be even better if he played in a counter-attacking based team, seeing as he is almost like a one-man counter-attacking team thanks to his ball control, dribbling abilites, speed and as you know, in a counter-attacking team, he would have alot more space when he attacks's so he could use his abilities to a higher level..

A couple of examples..

Spoiler:

No one is saying he wouldn't be the best player in the world if put on a different team. He wouldn't be scoring the same amount of goals thats for sure.

Watch this whole video....

Future wrote:

Luca wrote:

Future wrote:

Ronaldo is if not the most consistent striker of all time... he didn't need anyone creating for him. He was the most consistent striker before the injuries occurred and even after injuries he put up i believe 3 seasons of 30+ goals with Madrid even with his struggling weight.

The Inter teams that Ronaldo played on were incredible? lol

i never flip flopped between ind. awards, teams awards, etc....

I meant in general (at the flip flop comments, it's happened in this thread is all I meant by it- since they both severely contradict each other)

How is Ronaldo more consistent than Messi has been since 2009?
I mean, I don't mean to say Ronaldo is inconsistent but Messi's numbers alone in this time are ridiculous

I never said Ronaldo was more consistent than Messi....I said he was consistent because you said Ronaldo hasn't touched Messi's consistency....by your logic only players who can touch Messi's consistency is Pele and Puskas?

Just look at the system that Messi is playing in....Hence why he's getting this many goals and breaking records left and right. If he played on any other team, do u truly believe that he'd be scoring the same amount of goals? (Hence why in my previous comments i said Ronaldo would be scoring even more goals if he played for Barcelona right now. ) Why isn't he scoring this many goals for Argentina then? he's a product of Barcelonas system point blank. 75% of his goals come from Xavi, Iniesta and Alves feeding him the ball for the tap in.

Hmmm.
This season(goal.com):
Xavi's assists in total (not just Messi): 7
Iniesta's: 13
Dani's: 2

Totall of 22 assists to all Barca's team (not just Messi)

Messi scored: 51 goals so far this season. So even if these guys only assist Messi, and no one else they wont make more than 57% of assists for him.

Oh and Messi scores mainly tap-ins. Ridiculous!!

Make up stats. You'll show us how strong your point is!

Harmonica wrote:

Shadowfax666 wrote:

billionmillion wrote:
Instead he had ZidaneRivaldoFigoRonaldinhoL.EnriqueBeckhamestas

"

It seems everyone is misunderstanding the point here. Messi is being compared with pre-injury Ronaldo.

pre-injury Ronaldo didn't have Zidane, Figo, Ronaldinho...........

And frankly speaking he didn't need them back then.

Pre/post-injury Ronaldo was a striker, who needed service just like any other striker. On average about 80-90% of striker goals are directly assisted, meaning no part in build up play. Messi averages below 50% which is unheard of among the more prominent goal scorers.

Now lets look their seasons:

Ronaldo 96-97 47 goals + 6 assists = directly part of 53 goals or 40% of overall 131 goals.
Messi 11-12 73 goals + 36 assists = directly part of 109 goals or 57% of overall 190 goals.

So Barca without Ronaldo managed to score 78 goals, Barca without Messi 81 goals (and even that is diluted with 10 goals against Hospitalet which Messi didn't play, CDR R32 wasn't played back then).

The difference, Messi was part of twice the goals than Ronaldo, creating more than 50% of his own goals (Ronaldo 10-20%). There is no comparison really, pre-during-post-injury Ronaldo wasn't as good as Messi currently is, actually not even close.

Some further analysis of their goals.

Ronaldo 96-97 47 goals - Messi 11-12 73 goals

Directly assisted (no part in build up)

37 or 79% - 32 or 44%

Link-Up (part in build up)

3 or 6% - 28 or 38%

Self created

7 or 15% - 13 or 18%

So if we take away the directly assisted goals, we can reveal who really needed service, which doesn't really come in surprise when Ronaldo was a striker, and Messi is not:

Ronaldo 96-97 10 goals
Messi 11-12 41 goals

Example of the Heskeys like Stoichkov, Guardiola, Figo, Giovanni servicing Ronaldo:

Giovanni Heskying himself through the middle loosing possession, which Ronaldo then uses to his advantage in an unstoppable way



I hope this concludes the supposed "argument" who was the better goal scorer in their best seasons.

Passing, creating and assisting also doesn't even need debating.

Future wrote:

Luca wrote:Sorry, consistency was maybe the wrong term to use.
I meant consistently hitting his goals/assists each season hasn't really been done, certainly not by Ronaldo

And yeah, I would agree that Messi (to a degree), is a product of the system he plays in, that's not arguable. He suits the play style perfectly but I fail to see how that is a criticism against him

Even if I agree that 75% of his goals are directly assisted and should be scored, that still leaves 25% which are credited to his sheer brilliance on the field, and when you score as many goals as him that's certainly a lot

He scored 12 goals in 9 appearances for Argentina in 2012, I'd say he's come along but has a lot to prove at the same time for his national team

Ronaldo is a pure striker.... he's not supposed to be getting assists lol his main objective is to score and that's what he did.

Ronaldo had NO ONE to create for him and he didn't really need to. He scored by himself. You tell him to put the ball in the net and he'd do it. He was by far the better one on one player than Messi. There wasn't a defender in the world that could stop him in his prime. Not even Maldini or Nesta. He toyed with every defender he went up against. Serie A in the 90's was the best league overall of any era. That should tell you something.

I hope that you are only talking about Ronaldo at Inter(and even that is questionable), because Ronaldo at Barca, Madrid & Brazil had WC players to create chances for him..

eelir wrote:

Future wrote:

Luca wrote:

I meant in general (at the flip flop comments, it's happened in this thread is all I meant by it- since they both severely contradict each other)

How is Ronaldo more consistent than Messi has been since 2009?
I mean, I don't mean to say Ronaldo is inconsistent but Messi's numbers alone in this time are ridiculous

I never said Ronaldo was more consistent than Messi....I said he was consistent because you said Ronaldo hasn't touched Messi's consistency....by your logic only players who can touch Messi's consistency is Pele and Puskas?

Just look at the system that Messi is playing in....Hence why he's getting this many goals and breaking records left and right. If he played on any other team, do u truly believe that he'd be scoring the same amount of goals? (Hence why in my previous comments i said Ronaldo would be scoring even more goals if he played for Barcelona right now. ) Why isn't he scoring this many goals for Argentina then? he's a product of Barcelonas system point blank. 75% of his goals come from Xavi, Iniesta and Alves feeding him the ball for the tap in.

Hmmm.
This season(goal.com):
Xavi's assists in total (not just Messi): 7
Iniesta's: 13
Dani's: 2

Totall of 22 assists to all Barca's team (not just Messi)

Messi scored: 51 goals so far this season. So even if these guys only assist Messi, and no one else they wont make more than 57% of assists for him.

Oh and Messi scores mainly tap-ins. Ridiculous!!

Make up stats. You'll show us how strong your point is!

I'm not only talking about this season obviously.... And that was an estimate if u didn't catch it. Meaning a lot of his goals come from those 3.... Barcelona walks the ball into the net 90% of the time so yah I'd call that a tap in. Stop catching feelings. Nobody's making anything up.

Well, stop making lousy estimation as well as you are wrong. Check Harmonicas comments of the Messis best season (last year)! You'll see what i'm talking.

@Harmonica - I am eagerly waiting for his excuse

eelir wrote:Well, stop making lousy estimation as well as you are wrong. Check Harmonicas comments of the Messis best season (last year)! You'll see what i'm talking.

@Harmonica - I am eagerly waiting for his excuse

What excuses ??

I'm presenting close to facts while Messi stanleys are blinded by them as a result of constant dick sucking....

Is majority of his goals coming from Iniesta, Xavi, Alves and lately from Fabregas not a fact? Rarely that you'll see Barceona shoot outside the 18 yard box which is why i said a lot of his goals also come from tap ins n shit. Barcelona walks the ball into the net if u know what that means and thats a fact....

Is that not the type of football that you see from Barcelona? or am i making this stuff up? I'm a Madrid fan but i also watch Barcelona every weekend as well as other teams. I see what you see and i realize a great player when i see one but i don't dick ride them because they're on my team... You can compare Messi to Ronaldo when he leads Argentina to World Cup, until then gtfo.

Another fact that i already mentioned in this discussion is that he's a product of Barcelona's (Pep's) system. And that's simply because he doesn't perform for Argentina anything like he does for Barcelona. I've seen that you brought up the fact that Messi scores more unassisted goals than Ronaldo did or whatever u were trynna argue, then why doesn't he score by "himself" without anyone creating for him for Argentina like he does for Barcelona...?? If he's already better than Ronaldo ever was he should be doing that with no problem.... But instead he's been choking recently on International level.... What did he do in 2010 world cup? And please don't bring up the fact that Maradona was their coach because that shouldn't affect how a player plays especially if he's their main leader. Also, i'll never forget his performance in Copa America in 2011.... The main reason why i was watching it was because i wanted to see Messi play his best and lead Argentina to the promise land but instead he choked. If i remember correctly, he didn't even score a goal in any of the group matches. Argentina had by far the most talented team in that tournament and should've easily at least advanced to the finals. I'll give u one thing and that is Messi has been playing much better for Argentina this year and hopefully we'll see his Barcelona form translate into 2014 World Cup.

If he never wins or even reaches the Final of the WC, I'm sorry but i can't call him the greatest ever because winning for your country >>> winning for your club. I don't care how many CL titles he'll have... I can name a handful of players who've won multiple Champions Leagues. All the top greatest players to ever play have all won at least one World Cup (Pele, Zidane, Ronaldo, Maradona, etc..). And of course i'm not just ranking players based on who won world cups, there are other statistics come in to play but i won't get into that right now...

Meanwhile Ronaldo performed for his club and most importantly country.

Now, you wouldn't call or compare Cristiano Ronaldo to other greatest players would you? I mean he's got Ballon D'or, scores a shit ton of goals, he's won Champions League, been to the Final of EURO's (should've won, *bleep* Greece), etc.... And me being a Madrid fan as well as others on this or other boards that you might come across,you don't see us crowning him do u? So why is Messi being labeled as the greatest ever already at this age?

Once again, i have NOTHING against Messi and i know he's a great player and has been the best in the world for couple of years now. I have nothing but respect for him for what he does and how hard he works but I'm not gonna call him GOAT just yet... So don't assume i have negative feelings towards him when you're reading my reply.

Future wrote:

eelir wrote:Well, stop making lousy estimation as well as you are wrong. Check Harmonicas comments of the Messis best season (last year)! You'll see what i'm talking.

@Harmonica - I am eagerly waiting for his excuse

What excuses ??

I'm presenting close to facts while Messi stanleys are blinded by them as a result of constant dick sucking....

First TLDR;

Second what in the world is the one in red?

Third i reported you to admins for the one in blue.

Future wrote:

eelir wrote:Well, stop making lousy estimation as well as you are wrong. Check Harmonicas comments of the Messis best season (last year)! You'll see what i'm talking.

@Harmonica - I am eagerly waiting for his excuse

What excuses ??

I'm presenting close to facts while Messi stanleys are blinded by them as a result of constant dick sucking....

Is majority of his goals coming from Iniesta, Xavi, Alves and lately from Fabregas not a fact? Rarely that you'll see Barceona shoot outside the 18 yard box which is why i said a lot of his goals also come from tap ins n shit. Barcelona walks the ball into the net if u know what that means and thats a fact....

Is that not the type of football that you see from Barcelona? or am i making this stuff up? I'm a Madrid fan but i also watch Barcelona every weekend as well as other teams. I see what you see and i realize a great player when i see one but i don't dick ride them because they're on my team... You can compare Messi to Ronaldo when he leads Argentina to World Cup, until then gtfo.

Another fact that i already mentioned in this discussion is that he's a product of Barcelona's (Pep's) system. And that's simply because he doesn't perform for Argentina anything like he does for Barcelona. I've seen that you brought up the fact that Messi scores more unassisted goals than Ronaldo did or whatever u were trynna argue, then why doesn't he score by "himself" without anyone creating for him for Argentina like he does for Barcelona...?? If he's already better than Ronaldo ever was he should be doing that with no problem.... But instead he's been choking recently on International level.... What did he do in 2010 world cup? And please don't bring up the fact that Maradona was their coach because that shouldn't affect how a player plays especially if he's their main leader. Also, i'll never forget his performance in Copa America in 2011.... The main reason why i was watching it was because i wanted to see Messi play his best and lead Argentina to the promise land but instead he choked. If i remember correctly, he didn't even score a goal in any of the group matches. Argentina had by far the most talented team in that tournament and should've easily at least advanced to the finals. I'll give u one thing and that is Messi has been playing much better for Argentina this year and hopefully we'll see his Barcelona form translate into 2014 World Cup.

If he never wins or even reaches the Final of the WC, I'm sorry but i can't call him the greatest ever because winning for your country >>> winning for your club. I don't care how many CL titles he'll have... I can name a handful of players who've won multiple Champions Leagues. All the top greatest players to ever play have all won at least one World Cup (Pele, Zidane, Ronaldo, Maradona, etc..). And of course i'm not just ranking players based on who won world cups, there are other statistics come in to play but i won't get into that right now...

Meanwhile Ronaldo performed for his club and most importantly country.

Now, you wouldn't call or compare Cristiano Ronaldo to other greatest players would you? I mean he's got Ballon D'or, scores a shit ton of goals, he's won Champions League, been to the Final of EURO's (should've won, *bleep* Greece), etc.... And me being a Madrid fan as well as others on this or other boards that you might come across,you don't see us crowning him do u? So why is Messi being labeled as the greatest ever already at this age?

Once again, i have NOTHING against Messi and i know he's a great player and has been the best in the world for couple of years now. I have nothing but respect for him for what he does and how hard he works but I'm not gonna call him GOAT just yet... So don't assume i have negative feelings towards him when you're reading my reply.

thread ended when Jiopsi presented the gif / stats
just stop.. please, or atleast use a different point other then the flawed one you keep using.

eelir wrote:

Future wrote:

eelir wrote:Well, stop making lousy estimation as well as you are wrong. Check Harmonicas comments of the Messis best season (last year)! You'll see what i'm talking.

@Harmonica - I am eagerly waiting for his excuse

What excuses ??

I'm presenting close to facts while Messi stanleys are blinded by them as a result of constant dick sucking....

First TLDR;

Second what in the world is the one in red?

Third i reported you to admins for the one in blue.

Haha what a comeback....

Sure you came back with close to facts. I didn't even know such things exist. "You know my close to facts are better then your actual facts, and btw, since i cant really argue with you, i call you dick sucker"

You are the comeback king buddy.

Future wrote:Is majority of his goals coming from Iniesta, Xavi, Alves and lately from Fabregas not a fact?

This season they assisted 15 of Messi's 44 goals, so yeah, not a fact.

Wtf is this shit? People actually trying to say Ronaldo had better service than messi? Comparing the forgettable barca team he played in with the best attacking team in their history? Really? Really?

Oh shit he played with the great Giovanni, I forgot about that, the Giovanni that wasn't even a nailed on starter for the team. Oh he played with guardiola? The defensive minded guardiola that formed a defensive minded partnership with popescu, yeah they were a great help for scoring goals....

Messi has xavi, Ronaldo had De la pena, messi has iniesta, ronaldo had Giovanni, messi has bouquets, Ronaldo had pep, this is not even a contest. Your direct assists nonsense belongs in a bin

Diego Armando Maradona wrote:Wtf is this shit? People actually trying to say Ronaldo had better service than messi? Comparing the forgettable barca team he played in with the best attacking team in their history? Really? Really?

Oh shit he played with the great Giovanni, I forgot about that, the Giovanni that wasn't even a nailed on starter for the team. Oh he played with guardiola? The defensive minded guardiola that formed a defensive minded partnership with popescu, yeah they were a great help for scoring goals....

Messi has xavi, Ronaldo had De la pena, messi has iniesta, ronaldo had Giovanni, messi has bouquets, Ronaldo had pep, this is not even a contest. Your direct assists nonsense belongs in a bin

Dude, If Messi had played in Ronaldo's team I have no doubt he would have scored over 80 goals. ffs that Barcelona team played on teh counter attack. The games where the opposition sat back Ronaldo was pretty ineffective bar a few neat tricks. Messi would absolutely abuse the space that teams left. And in tighter games he would have been better. Messi is better than R9 ever was. And in games where Messi is shackled he still contributes in some way, something I can't say about r9