Re: The Racism Thread

[McLewis]

@McLewis the surprising thing, or not so surprising after all, is that a lot of this dismissive attitude is coming from the left. They're so invested in demonizing their Russian boogeyman (rightfully, in this case) that they're willing to turn a blind eye to any social justice violation that could make Russia's opponent look bad.

I saw what you're referring to first hand during the highest fervors of BLM almost 2 years back. I kept continually seeing this argument that racial inequality was just a part of overall class inequality. A part of the same pie rather than a completely different flavor of pie altogether.

So I'm well acquainted with the left's ability to put what they believe to be bigger issues over race issues. And I say that as a member of the left myself.

[McLewis]

[quote="McLewis"]

@McLewis the surprising thing, or not so surprising after all, is that a lot of this dismissive attitude is coming from the left. They're so invested in demonizing their Russian boogeyman (rightfully, in this case) that they're willing to turn a blind eye to any social justice violation that could make Russia's opponent look bad.

I saw what you're referring to first hand during the highest fervors of BLM almost 2 years back. I kept continually seeing this argument that racial inequality was just a part of overall class inequality. A part of the same pie rather than a completely different flavor of pie altogether.

So I'm well acquainted with the left's ability to put what they believe to be bigger issues over race issues. And I say that as a member of the left myself.

Basically, it boils down to:

"Racial inequality is part of class inequality" = Which increases inclusivity of white people, giving them more agency in that struggle at the price of agency for non-white people.

"All Lives Matter" at the expense of "Black Lives Matter" accomplishes the exact same goal. Elevates white people (who overwhelmingly represent those" all lives") far above Black lives in what "matters".

[sportsczy]

@BC @Art @Sports
yea i get it, it can be a compelling argument, and almost a defeatist argument you could also say, to make that it's all just natural/evolutionary. And yes, in-group/collective bias are definitely things. But i'd like to think race is a different animal on its own. That has deep ties to classism and class consciousness. And that in a (hypothetical) ideal/utopian society is possible to be eradicated through priming and new learned behaviour.

I mean let's just argue in that the simplest hypothetical way. Let's say humans of all races and nationalities decide to inter-breed, we get some sort of all-in-one collective government that works for all, and we get develop a technology that controls weather (so as to eradicate any huge differences in skin colour caused by Sun and climate over time)... then surely just based on that, things would starkly improve on the problem of racism, no?

It's not defeatist... Here's a quote I read recently that I deeply believe in:

"To concentrate only on correcting the manifestations of racial prejudice, with an inseparable tendency to focus on the faults of others, rather than on how to work together to create race unity, will invariably lead to a deepening of the differences so widespread in American society."

[McLewis]

That gets at the meat of the problem, but an elegant solution without actual steps towards achieving it (as well as the will to see it all the way through) is ultimately useless. That's where we are.

The portions of society that know what we need to do to resolve the race problem completely refuse to do it. And then there's the portions of society that pretend the problem doesn't exist in the first place.

There are people in significant positions of power who occupy the top rung of both of those portions of society.

[El Gunner]

@BC @Art @Sports
yea i get it, it can be a compelling argument, and almost a defeatist argument you could also say, to make that it's all just natural/evolutionary. And yes, in-group/collective bias are definitely things. But i'd like to think race is a different animal on its own. That has deep ties to classism and class consciousness. And that in a (hypothetical) ideal/utopian society is possible to be eradicated through priming and new learned behaviour.

I mean let's just argue in that the simplest hypothetical way. Let's say humans of all races and nationalities decide to inter-breed, we get some sort of all-in-one collective government that works for all, and we get develop a technology that controls weather (so as to eradicate any huge differences in skin colour caused by Sun and climate over time)... then surely just based on that, things would starkly improve on the problem of racism, no?

It's not defeatist... Here's a quote I read recently that I deeply believe in:

"To concentrate only on correcting the manifestations of racial prejudice, with an inseparable tendency to focus on the faults of others, rather than on how to work together to create race unity, will invariably lead to a deepening of the differences so widespread in American society."

based on the bold in that quote:
but then so you believe in some ideal way it is a rectifiable issue?

based on the entire quote:
you just don't believe the way it is currently being tackled in society is helping towards getting closer to tackling the problem.

[VivaStPauli]

My sister was trapped in #Ukraine. This is a thread about her incredible journey to reach #Poland. During her escape she experienced #racism, injuries, freezing temps and sleep deprivation. Her story is only one of the hundreds of thousands of people trying to get out.

— Bijan Hosseini (@BijanCNN) March 1, 2022

Please tell me this part of the story isn't true:

When they arrived to the border they were not let in. Two lines were formed. One for white people, the other for everyone else. Only Ukrainians were being let over the border. Thousands of people were forced to sleep outside in the cold. Fires were started to keep people warm.

Please tell me this is only fake news from a Russian bot. Please for the sake of humanity tell me it isn't true.

I tried to look into this, and from what I read, and what friends of friends in the area say, is basically this:
people at the border are being seperated into three groups:
1) people with an EU passport are just let in
2) people with an Ukrainian passport are let in, and offered shelter at a refugee camp
3) people with neither are being held until their identitiy and status can be determined, at which point they are either let in, or deported to their home countries (if that's not Ukraine)

Since not a huge number of Ukrainian citizens are brown, the optics are probably really bad.
Also, I don't think this is not the time of asking too many questions, this is the time of getting people out of harm's way, and then looking up who they are.

But if you want to look at this positively, it is very possible, that this is an issue of documentation, not plain racism.
That being said, I fully expect Polish border police to be racist, sooo...

[BarrileteCosmico]

But why segregate them at all? Are foreigners in Ukraine in any less need of asylum than Ukrainians? By all means process them and send them to the right embassy/country, but after accepting them in and ensuring they have a minimum of care provided to them.

[BarrileteCosmico]

@EG if everyone in the world inter married and we were only left only brown people after a few generations then people would probably still discriminate on religion, nationality, class, etc. Racism might be over but it would mean very little. After all, race is a meaningless racial construct and relatively modern invention already.

Genetically speaking, everyone outside of sub saharan africa is nearly genetically identical, and within sub Sahara africa there might be a few distinct races. But these do not clearly display to our senses so we don't really think of it that way.

[El Gunner]

@EG if everyone in the world inter married and we were only left only brown people after a few generations then people would probably still discriminate on religion, nationality, class, etc. Racism might be over but it would mean very little. After all, race is a meaningless racial construct and relatively modern invention already.

Genetically speaking, everyone outside of sub saharan africa is nearly genetically identical, and within sub Sahara africa there might be a few distinct races. But these do not clearly display to our senses so we don't really think of it that way.

yea i get that, that's why i brought up the example the way that i brought it up. Under one world government, no nationality distinctions etc etc. But at least it would be one less social problem and it would go a long way into improving our social lives. And of course in totality it was just an (extreme?) example to try and make the point clear that i believe it can be seen as a rectifiable issue.

[Myesyats]

Ukrainians can enter EU countries visa-free since 2017
Non-Ukrainians need schengen visa

conclusion: racism

Logic: not found

[Nishankly]

Ukrainians can enter EU countries visa-free since 2017
Non-Ukrainians need schengen visa

conclusion: racism

Logic: not found

You want a valid visa for people escaping war torn areas?

You want these Non Ukrainians to go apply to their embassy in Kyiv after the war has started and wait for 1 month because they and the Ukrainian government has nothing better to do than follow visa processes during the war?

Are you serious Myeyes? Refugees now suddenly need visas? You just started a new system of escaping war in the world.

Imagine if this war was in 2016, Ukrainians cannot go nowhere including Europe since they do not have a visa and we would tell them to sit down back in Kyiv and suffer the shelling.

[BarrileteCosmico]

yea i get that, that's why i brought up the example the way that i brought it up. Under one world government, no nationality distinctions etc etc. But at least it would be one less social problem and it would go a long way into improving our social lives. And of course in totality it was just an (extreme?) example to try and make the point clear that i believe it can be seen as a rectifiable issue.

I think people seeking to divide will always find something, not matter how small. World history is full of instances of nearly identical towns warring over small perceived differences.

But I don't mean to say it can't be overcome. Clearly there is a lot to this that is a learned behavior and if you take the long view it has been getting better and will continue getting better. The world is a vastly more inclusive place than it was 30, 50, 100 and 200 years ago, and I look forward to see how much we improve during the rest of our lives.

[Myesyats]

You want a valid visa for people escaping war torn areas?

You want these Non Ukrainians to go apply to their embassy in Kyiv after the war has started and wait for 1 month because they and the Ukrainian government has nothing better to do than follow visa processes during the war?

Are you serious Myeyes? Refugees now suddenly need visas? You just started a new system of escaping war in the world.

Imagine if this war was in 2016, Ukrainians cannot go nowhere including Europe since they do not have a visa and we would tell them to sit down back in Kyiv and suffer the shelling.

I lold, because obviously nobody is sent away back to a city under heavy shelling. The information that I have is that from the Polish border guards there's no issues,  even if people don't have documentation on them. Everything is sorted out after entering
All these incidents seem to be from the Ukrainian side. It's kind of fucked up if it's a common theme of pushing back non-Ukrainians to the end of the line, even if they wanted to let in women with children first.

I won't act like I know what's their deal tbh

[Nishankly]

I lold, because obviously nobody is sent away back to a city under heavy shelling. The information that I have is that from the Polish border guards there's no issues,  even if people don't have documentation on them. Everything is sorted out after entering
All these incidents seem to be from the Ukrainian side. It's kind of fucked up if it's a common theme of pushing back non-Ukrainians to the end of the line, even if they wanted to let in women with children first.

I won't act like I know what's their deal tbh

That's very fair and I, 100% expect Poland to be much better and open minded than Ukraine (relatively). Sorry, but it was just your post where you used Visas and then probably trolled to link with logic that made me reply.

[Myesyats]

Yeah sorry that was a dumb comment tbh. Well, I thought there are different procedures for Ukrainians and Non-Ukrainians and that's why some people are treated differently.

Some NBC report I watched says Ukrainians "are trying to process women and children first"

Polish guards are letting everyone in as they go, the transport is made free and all that stuff as per the government's order. I can't really speak for the UA side of things

[Nishankly]

Yeah sorry that was a dumb comment tbh. Well, I thought there are different procedures for Ukrainians  and Non-Ukrainians and that's why some people are treated differently.

Some NBC report I watched  says Ukrainians "are trying to process women and children first"

Polish guards are letting everyone in as they go, the transport is made free and all that stuff as per the government's order. I can't really speak for the UA side of things

The issue here at least personally is that the Ukrainians guards are beating Indian female students with rods and pulling their hair around as I mentioned, can share interviews if needed. There is nothing against the receiving countries like yours thankfully yet more so for the Ukrainian border guards allowing specifically white people to go through. This is again probably due to India's abstention but again who is going to explain to them that government =/= people where they think Russian people want peace but Indians don't.

I hate that Ukraine is getting this type of attention during a point where they are being slaughtered for no reason but come on and its absolutely depressing for me that I need to even post about this considering the innocent majority Ukrainian plight who are not racist, if even a war does not make you believe in equality then what will.

But then again for me, the war is bigger to end than the border racism here as much as people will hate me to say this.

[VivaStPauli]

But why segregate them at all?

Oh I have no idea! I'm just relaying what I'm being told is happening, I'm certainly not apologizing. The area to clear all this shit up would be in Poland, not on Ukrainian territory.

Are foreigners in Ukraine in any less need of asylum than Ukrainians? By all means process them and send them to the right embassy/country, but after accepting them in and ensuring they have a minimum of care provided to them.

I couldn't have said it better myself.

[Arquitecto]

Think if we are speaking of Poland then we should differentiate between Poland A & Poland B. A if I am correct is the more developed and progressive side of things where B is less developed and stuck in more stagnant ways of thinking.

But as a whole in Poland they are rapidly are and have become a very open-minded, self aware and educated population and this goes for quite frankly all of entire EE.

The western spiel against EE has made everyone think its a backwards less developed land compared to the west whereas in countless ways its better. Ask Sepi.

[McLewis]

"Black Panther" director Ryan Coogler was detained by police in Jan. after he was mistaken for a bank robber. He says: "This situation should never have happened...Bank of America worked with me and addressed it to my satisfaction. We have moved on.” https://t.co/rkE5BrcP24

— Variety (@Variety) March 9, 2022

A few things to note here:

- The bank teller in question, is also black.

- Police are not in the wrong in this particular case. They're required to show up and detain whoever the bank accuses of attempted robbery until the full story is revealed.

- There is confusion on whether the teller or the teller's manager called the police.

- Slipping notes to bank tellers to request a large sum withdrawal is normal.

- Coogler provided his ID, swiped his bank card, and entered his bank PIN to establish that the account he was requesting the withdrawal from is his.

This is a great example of when racial profiling of black men is so thoroughly ingrained in American culture that even black women partake in it as well.

[VivaStPauli]

- Slipping notes to bank tellers to request a large sum withdrawal is normal.

It is???

- Coogler provided his ID, swiped his bank card, and entered his bank PIN to establish that the account he was requesting the withdrawal from is his.

Yeah this is the amazing, juicy, detail. How do you not just fork over the money after someone had all the correct credentials? Because the note he slipped threw me TBH, that was weird to me.

This is a great example of when racial profiling of black men is so thoroughly ingrained in American culture that even black women partake in it as well.

It's sadly been proven again and again in psychological studies that African Americans can be just as biased against African Americans as ol' whitey. It sucks. But it's a self-fulfilling prophecy. Decades, if not centuries, of institutionalized racism have kept minorities poor, and marginalized, and where there's no hope, there's crime. And crime leads to anecdotal 'evidence' that foster racial bias.
Won't stop until capitalism is fixed.

[El Gunner]

- Slipping notes to bank tellers to request a large sum withdrawal is normal.

It is???

well i would presume you don't want to broadcast to the people next in line your large withdrawal

[BarrileteCosmico]

I do not agree with these sentiments, people who think these things are wrong and bad. https://t.co/6dLYaOaaDv

— Matthew Yglesias (@mattyglesias) May 4, 2022

Imagine thinking this

[McLewis]

So this hits close to home.

I have a relative that is extremely xenophobic, especially towards Asians, particularly East Asians. She only revealed this to me just a couple of weeks ago. I took this opportunity to deep dive into why she is this way.

It stems from the perceived ease in which East Asian immigrants enter poor Black neighborhoods, open businesses (like beauty shops) and then enrich themselves while treating the community, their customers, badly and with prejudice. She believes that Black people should have preference to open Black-owned businesses in Black communities.

I say "perceived" because the reality is that these businesses are not often flush to the point where these Asian families are able to live significantly better than their Black customers. My relative firmly believes that immigrants who come here somehow get to skip steps that Black people are forced to complete in order to start a business, secure loans, and make money. She believes the incentive of simply being an immigrant gives them an unfair advantage over native born descendants of slaves. I don't believe that personally though I will say that it is significantly harder for Black businesses to secure loans than it is for White businesses. I'm not sure what those numbers look like compared to Asian businesses though.

Given there are a lot more Black folks who think this way along with typical white racism, that graph is not at all far fetched to me.

[Myesyats]

She believes that Black people should have preference to open Black-owned businesses in Black communities.

Wait, isnt that segregation basically?

As for the graph, I dont think people have become more racist towards asians due to covid, the pandemic just gave a reason to many to be more public about it.

[McLewis]

She believes that Black people should have preference to open Black-owned businesses in Black communities.

Wait, isnt that segregation basically?

As for the graph, I dont think people have become more racist towards asians due to covid,  the pandemic just gave a reason to many to be more public about it.

Segregation is forced separation, often from an organized authoritative institution. Like a government.

What my relative advocates for is voluntary separation by the community itself. It's closer to isolation than segregation. She's not super informed on this subject and it shows when we discuss this from time to time. She knows only what she sees out on the streets. The underlying cause of it is lost on her.

And I agree regarding the graphic. The racism was always there. For Black people, it's really complicated since we tend to love a lot about Asian culture, like the food and anime.

[El Gunner]

racism is always complicated... black people admire the wealth of white people and white people admire the soul of black people.

anyway, i also don't see it as segregation, it's just re-investing into your own community.

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