Guardiola has failed Bayern Munich

rincon wrote:

sportsczy wrote:

rincon wrote:This dortmund is MUCH more compeitive in Bundesliga than at 12/13 when Bayern were at their best.

You're joking, right?

They went to the CL final in 2012/2013.  They also had Lewa and Gotze to go with Reus on the attack...  not to mention a healthy Gundogan.

The issue was that they started horribly due to early season injuries.  But the Bayern-Dortmund games were top top quality.  Leverkusen and Schalke gave them tough games too as they were very talented.  Even as they ran away with the league... they still got competitive rivalry games against top talent.

How is Bayern running ramapant on the league and winning it by 25 points PSG style keep them sharper than than still having to play for the title with 2 matchdays left

It's not about the league table.  That's not my point.  It's about playing those games where you get pushed around and don't have overwhelming talent.  Dortmund games pushed Bayern around back then...  as did, to a lesser extent, Schalke and Leverkusen.  CL elimination rounds are about those team v team matchups and preparation.  If you have to do that in your league or league cup, then you get prepared.  You learn about your players and your tactics so that when CL elimination rounds come around, you're better prepared.

They could be up 50 points on Dortmund, Schalke and Leverkusen and those teams would still battle Bayern like crazy... and Bayern fans/board would not stand for losing to them. It's like the clasico this year in the second game. We were 12 points back at the time. Despite what Barca fans say, that game is always going to get played with high intensity with team giving 100%.

sportsczy wrote:

rincon wrote:

sportsczy wrote:
You're joking, right?

They went to the CL final in 2012/2013. They also had Lewa and Gotze to go with Reus on the attack... not to mention a healthy Gundogan.

The issue was that they started horribly due to early season injuries. But the Bayern-Dortmund games were top top quality. Leverkusen and Schalke gave them tough games too as they were very talented. Even as they ran away with the league... they still got competitive rivalry games against top talent.

How is Bayern running ramapant on the league and winning it by 25 points PSG style keep them sharper than than still having to play for the title with 2 matchdays left

It's not about the league table. That's not my point. It's about playing those games where you get pushed around and don't have overwhelming talent. Dortmund games pushed Bayern around back then... as did, to a lesser extent, Schalke and Leverkusen. CL elimination rounds are about those team v team matchups and preparation. If you have to do that in your league or league cup, then you get prepared. You learn about your players and your tactics so that when CL elimination rounds come around, you're better prepared.

If you win the league with a 25 point gap in no way were you challenged more than if you win it (which they haven't yet) by 5.

You can't blame the competition not challenging you enough if there are 2 matchdays left and you still haven't won it. That means that Bayern are not allowed to relax in games and have to win them all. You can't compare their situation with PSG at all. PSG, like Bayern 12/13, ran away with their league. This Bayern did not.

If they weren't sharp enough for the CL then its the fault of the coach, not the competition.

You have no idea what I'm talking about so let's forget it..

Even when Barca was running away with the league in Mou's first season and this season... you still had great elite v elite game matchups in Copa Del Rey and in La Liga that kept everyone sharp regardless of league standings.

If you can't understand this, then you can't.  No point carrying on.

Great Leader Sprucenuce wrote:

urbaNRoots wrote:

Great Leader Sprucenuce wrote:

Pep has failed considering the expectations but this myth needs to stop.

It's not a myth.

Except it is, they were lucky to win the final to start with. They destroyed a Barca team without a manager and hardly any of it's key players whoop to doo.

You lot act like if they kept their manager they would have continued to dominate when nobody ever has since the CL's inception.

It's a massive myth, if they were as dominant as you say they wouldn't have needed a few large favours from the referee in the final to defeat Dortmund.

Are you really holding one referee mistake against the quality of that team?

How many teams do win the treble (League, Cup and CL) and are NOT one of the greatest teams in history? That's not a myth, it's a fact.

If anything is a myth, it's Pep Guardiola being a tactical genius. He thrives on his possession based football, I give him that, teams with not enough quality players can't deal with that which is why he wins so many points in the league. But every team that can beat his first and second press can beat Bayern. That makes him one-dimensional, no better than Arsene Wenger right now, only provided with much better players. His substitions are mediocre, his formations are embarrassing and he consistrently needs world class players to get him out of tricky situations. He is no better than any of the other great managers in the world right now.

One refereeing mistake lol?

Ribery and Dante should both have been sent off and Lewa had a goal incorrectly ruled out.... it was multiple it wasn't just one.

Also if you think Pep is one dimensional coach who relies on possession football i think we are done here, his tactics and style of play are quite substantially different to his team at Barca.

Anyone should be able to see that, also if we are taking about being one dimensional why doesn't the same apply to Simeone? his teams play the same exact way in every game but because it's direct and defensive it doesn't count i suppose?

Winter is Coming wrote:

chad4401 wrote:pep is a great manager no doubt, but he deserves to get called a fraud, for hipsters tripping over themselves to award him the best ever, just because he switch players around and trashes weak teams, he still has a lot to prove outside of prime xavi,iniesta and messi, as i said before his bayern tenure is overrated.

True, but people judge him differently regardless, had that Been Messi/Ronaldo missing the PK like Mueller or Suarez/Neymar/Bale/Benz missing sitters like Lewa we wouldn't hear the end of it. Instead its all Pep fault.

yeah that fair but he gets judge differently cause the constant need from the media and the hipsters to act awe-struct by every decisions he makes, its almost comical at times, he is just another elite manager.

that why i say exaggerating a point doesn't mean that one is knowledgeable, just means you like to exaggerate.

Great Leader Sprucenuce wrote:One refereeing mistake lol?

Ribery and Dante should both have been sent off and Lewa had a goal incorrectly ruled out.... it was multiple it wasn't just one.

Also if you think Pep is one dimensional coach who relies on possession football i think we are done here, his tactics and style of play are quite substantially different to his team at Barca.

Anyone should be able to see that, also if we are taking about being one dimensional why doesn't the same apply to Simeone? his teams play the same exact way in every game but because it's direct and defensive it doesn't count i suppose?

You very well know what those clowns mean by that. Since he doesn't want his team to sit back and counter, he's one dimensional, too them. What's funny is the criticism he got in the attacking phase (not enough of wing play, MOAR crosses) is a staple of his current Bayern side.

Great Leader Sprucenuce wrote:
Anyone should be able to see that, also if we are taking about being one dimensional why doesn't the same apply to Simeone? his teams play the same exact way in every game but because it's direct and defensive it doesn't count i suppose?

Simione changes his tactics depending on the opponent, bro. If "you" can't see that then obviously "your" not watching him week in and week out. Unless you really believe Simione wins all his matches with 33% possession then I can't help you there. XD

Pep is not entirely one dimensional but he rarely changes his prominent tactic (let's tiki taka cuz it winz muh CL. Peeps call me a strategic genius for it). He's going Man City bro. I'm thinking he's gonna have to do something different to win the gold there. We'll see how that pans out.

No he doesn't

It's the same bollocks i used to read when Mourinho was in Spain against Guardiola that Barca never had plan B and Mourinho wasn't as one dimensional.

It was bollocks then and it's bollocks now, apparently if you attack you are one dimensional and if you defend and counter you are multi-dimensional.

Anyway Cascia has pretty much explained it for me, i can't be arsed arguing with people who think he's one dimensional and Simeone is this multi-dimensional coach who adapts game to game like the *bleep* he does.

Great Leader Sprucenuce wrote:No he doesn't

It's the same bollocks i used to read when Mourinho was in Spain against Guardiola that Barca never had plan B and Mourinho wasn't as one dimensional.

Okay then. Suit yourself. I'm done.

Casciavit wrote:

Great Leader Sprucenuce wrote:One refereeing mistake lol?

Ribery and Dante should both have been sent off and Lewa had a goal incorrectly ruled out.... it was multiple it wasn't just one.

Also if you think Pep is one dimensional coach who relies on possession football i think we are done here, his tactics and style of play are quite substantially different to his team at Barca.

Anyone should be able to see that, also if we are taking about being one dimensional why doesn't the same apply to Simeone? his teams play the same exact way in every game but because it's direct and defensive it doesn't count i suppose?

You very well know what those clowns mean by that. Since he doesn't want his team to sit back and counter, he's one dimensional, too them. What's funny is the criticism he got in the attacking phase (not enough of wing play, MOAR crosses) is a staple of his current Bayern side.

That's not my criticism, stop assuming things. If anything, the crossing and constant attempt to SCORE instead of PASS BACK pays off many  more times than Pep would probably like. Heynknes has installed this mentality and it's still paying off as it did tonight. Only Pep's soft football was not enough to stop an ACTUAL tactictian.

Simeone is anything but one-dimensional. Against weaker teams in the league he attacks and defense in great balance, no different than Pep's approach. Against more talented teams though, he knows his limits, he is not arrogant and stupid. Again unlike the great Pep.

Pep is not the greatest manager in the history, he is not better than all the best managers in the world combined or even the best manager in the world right now. He is a great manager no doubt, but not better than Ancelotti, Mourinho, Klopp, Luis Enrique and all the rest of the great managers right now. Every year he proves this yet every year his fanboys think he is something special compared to the others. Well he is not.

Simeone did change even today...  they were playing a 442 in the first half but Bayern matched it with their own 442.  Bayern were winning that matchup.  In the second half, Simeone changes to a 4141 with Gabi being the DM, Torres on top, while playing Griezmann and Carrasco (HT sub) as true wingers.  It scrambled Bayern.  Of course, that went out the window when Atleti parked the bus to keep the result in the last 20 mins... but an adjustment was made.

He did this stuff against Madrid often too.  Depending on how we set up, he'd adjust it on the fly if he could or at HT and completely flummoxed us.

Simeone really knows what he's doing. Manages the talents of his team to perfection.

Pep is by no means one dimensional... in fact, he has too many dimensions. He tries too many different things as if he's trying to live up to his "genius" tag. Needs to settle down a bit imo.

sportsczy wrote:Pep is by no means one dimensional... in fact, he has too many dimensions. He tries too many different things as if he's trying to live up to his "genius" tag. Needs to settle down a bit imo.

He only has more dimensions against Darmstadt and Sporting Gijon where he tries stupid shit to show off. Tonight or in Madrid there was nothing extraordinary in his set up.

The Madrid and Barcelona defeats he should take some, if not most of the blame. This defeat, however, I really do not see what more Pep could have done. Personally think he was as prepared as he possibly could have and you can't really prepare yourself for:

Saul doing a Maradona against your side.
Muller doing Muller things and basically being a pleb.
Boeteng with that Ramos-esque defending.

He failed to live up to the expectations that the club (probably) set upon him but I can't fault him for today.

The only thing you can fault him today is for letting Muller take a penalty when you have this guy in your team:

Honestly if you say pep is one dimensional you either haven't watched Pep's Barca and Bayern both or you're clueless or simply spouting out stereotypes that people hate on Pep for.

You have to pick one. Simply because if you've watched both you might understand that they play quite differently.

Kills me. Today if you play "possession football" then it doesn't matter any of the other tactical changes you make, it's all the same

@BC... they didn't let Zidane take PKs for Madrid so the other guys' egos wouldn't get hurt and he was one of the goat PK takers of all time. So it's not always about who the best guy is unfortunately. Insane, i know.

CBarca wrote:Honestly if you say pep is one dimensional you either haven't watched Pep's Barca and Bayern both or you're clueless or simply spouting out stereotypes that people hate on Pep for.

You have to pick one. Simply because if you've watched both you might understand that they play quite differently.

Kills me. Today if you play "possession football" then it doesn't matter any of the other tactical changes you make, it's all the same

Well, has Pep actually changed tactics during his stay at Bayern? Has he done anything new that has "revolutionized" football? Doubtful.

He's surrounded by teams that can barely give him a challenge in the Bundesliga. He's not being forced to change enough. Surely he's experimented some things but it's not well reflected in his team. That's why in CL when he does meet these teams that can play against his style he appears to have no answer to them.

Pep's Bayern can't play the same way as Pep's Barca because it's composed differently. But Pep is so narrow minded in his tactics that he tries really really hard to have Bayern play like Barca.

Do you see it now?

the best team bayern
the best coach pep
the best possession football
the best striker lewandowski
the best left back Alaba
the best german player muller
the best shoulda have golden ball robben
the best CB Boateng
the best young Xavi Thiago
the best right back Lham
the best keeper Neuer
the best team doctor
the best board

the farce has finally ended. most overrated team in the past 3 years in europe. whooped by RM, whooped by Barca, eliminated by Atleti. bravo pep.

lmao what a terrible thread

No he hasn't

Both Real and Arsenal fans would kill for 10 minutes of the kind of football we displayed yesterday.

Just as they would kill for a, err...., LEAGUE TITLE.

Pep has done wonderful work, and he's a wonderful, unique coach.
Nobody's perfect.

I wouldnt say he is fraud but he has failed Bayern in terms of trophies.
During his three seasons, with that team he could not be IN A SINGLE CL FINAL.You can say otherwise when he reached final and then somehow lost a final but not reaching final is a failure. He had three seasons to build his own team and you can not give excuses like he had kids like Costa or Koman or no other excuse. He simply failed to tactically overcome the coaches/team he faced in last 3 CL semis.

I think most of you know how highly I rate Pep. Definitely one of the best managers working today; at least as far as I'm concerned.

But there's a fundamental criterion I can't overlook: results. It doesn't matter how well you played or how many clear-cut chances you created; if you don't emerge the winner, at least 50% of my final rating will get slashed.

I think if I was a Bayern fan, I would have the feeling that Pep did a good job with my club; But at the same time, I would feel that he could've done better.

I don't understand why some members compare his Bayern to Heyneckes'. It doesn't make any sense to me. Many conditions would have to fall into place for the comparison to be sound. And I'm pretty sure Heyneckes himself wouldn't be able to reach that godly 2013 form with this Bayern. Heck, I'm pretty sure Pep himself wouldn't be able to make this Barça play like his.

And it's not like he got knocked out by Wolfsburg or City; he got knocked out by Simeone's Atlético - a team that has been going neck and neck with Real Madrid and Barça for the last three years...and that says a lot.

Yes, if Bayern wanted to win a CL in these 3 years then he's failed them. The players too, since they are the ones playing on the pitch.

It's life, you win some & lose some.

Still one of the greatest managers out there.

And I doubt Bayern fans will hold him in a negative light. He's led them to trophies while playing some good football, 2 things that many top clubs would kill for.

Agreed with OP.

Winning Bundesliga with Bayern is the minimum requirement these days. Just like with Barca and Real Madrid, the season will only be a great success if they win the CL. Guardiola will leave the club without having reached the CL final once; he has failed them.

The fact that Pep is considered a "failure" because he didn't win the CL is in itself a testament to how good he is