Where does Cristiano Ronaldo fit in football's history ?

Beautiful Football wrote:

likeastar wrote:Messi is in Zico's class IMO. He has guide Argentina to the WC to be in Pele/Maradona/Cruyff/Di Stefano bracket.

No he is better than him why because Zico had a chance to shine in Europe.
He did ok at the age of 30.But not like messi. He had one of the best talented
team in the history of football to lead in the world cup but failed.If messi had that team brazil would became Winner in 1982 IMO

Did you even watch the 1982 Brazil vs Italy ?Im sure Messi wouldnt have done much better.Messi has scored 2 goals in 2 WCs, he has flopped hard.I dont care how bad his teammates are (hell they aren't even that bad,pls stop underrating Argentina),he should have been better considering he is considered a top 3 player of all time.

Ganso wrote:

Beautiful Football wrote:

likeastar wrote:Messi is in Zico's class IMO. He has guide Argentina to the WC to be in Pele/Maradona/Cruyff/Di Stefano bracket.

No he is better than him why because Zico had a chance to shine in Europe.
He did ok at the age of 30.But not like messi. He had one of the best talented
team in the history of football to lead in the world cup but failed.If messi had that team brazil would became Winner in 1982 IMO

Did you even watch the 1982 Brazil vs Italy ?Messi has cored 2 goals in 2 WCs, he has flopped hard.I dont care how bad his teammates are (hell they aren't even that bad,pls stop underrating Argentina),he should have been better considering he is considered a top 3 player of all time.

Messi has 1 goal, but how on earth was he a flop? If I recall correctly in 2006 he wasn't in the field when they were eliminated, and 2010 Argentina got mauled 0-4 because of the farcical defense and coach.

Ganso wrote:

Beautiful Football wrote:

likeastar wrote:Messi is in Zico's class IMO. He has guide Argentina to the WC to be in Pele/Maradona/Cruyff/Di Stefano bracket.

No he is better than him why because Zico had a chance to shine in Europe.
He did ok at the age of 30.But not like messi. He had one of the best talented
team in the history of football to lead in the world cup but failed.If messi had that team brazil would became Winner in 1982 IMO

Did you even watch the 1982 Brazil vs Italy ?Im sure Messi wouldnt have done much better.Messi has scored 2 goals in 2 WCs, he has flopped hard.I dont care how bad his teammates are (hell they aren't even that bad,pls stop underrating Argentina),he should have been better considering he is considered a top 3 player of all time.

Are you comparing brazil 1982 to Argentina 2010 Maradona as coach.

In 2006 he did not even play that match against Germany how did he flop.

With maradona No Team is going to win a world cup does not matter how good the team are.Why, Because that dude does not have a single clue about tactics.

Ganso wrote:

Beautiful Football wrote:

likeastar wrote:Messi is in Zico's class IMO. He has guide Argentina to the WC to be in Pele/Maradona/Cruyff/Di Stefano bracket.

No he is better than him why because Zico had a chance to shine in Europe.
He did ok at the age of 30.But not like messi. He had one of the best talented
team in the history of football to lead in the world cup but failed.If messi had that team brazil would became Winner in 1982 IMO

Did you even watch the 1982 Brazil vs Italy ?Im sure Messi wouldnt have done much better.Messi has scored 2 goals in 2 WCs, he has flopped hard.I dont care how bad his teammates are (hell they aren't even that bad,pls stop underrating Argentina),he should have been better considering he is considered a top 3 player of all time.

No one would have done much better under Maradona especially considering how deep he played and how much of a joke his tactics and set up was.

Also Maradona was crap in 82, 2014 is Messi's time in that regard and when he will be judged.

But i have said this many times, Messi doesn't need a WC because of how dominate he has been at club level.

Only Pele, Cruyff and Di Stefano have been similarly dominate.

Harmonica wrote:

Ganso wrote:

Beautiful Football wrote:

No he is better than him why because Zico had a chance to shine in Europe.
He did ok at the age of 30.But not like messi. He had one of the best talented
team in the history of football to lead in the world cup but failed.If messi had that team brazil would became Winner in 1982 IMO

Did you even watch the 1982 Brazil vs Italy ?Messi has cored 2 goals in 2 WCs, he has flopped hard.I dont care how bad his teammates are (hell they aren't even that bad,pls stop underrating Argentina),he should have been better considering he is considered a top 3 player of all time.

Messi has 1 goal, but how on earth was he a flop? If I recall correctly in 2006 he wasn't in the field when they were eliminated, and 2010 Argentina got mauled 0-4 because of the farcical defense and coach.

The excuses don't matter,bottom line is that he is yet to be a highlight in a international competition(no olympics pls) meanwhile Cruyff,Maradona and Pele were(Cruyff reached a final,Maradona won 1 and reached a final,Pele won 3).

Messi is a top 3 player of all time,but people want to ignore the fact he hasnt done shet with Argentina unlike the other greats.

Ganso wrote:

Harmonica wrote:

Ganso wrote:Did you even watch the 1982 Brazil vs Italy ?Messi has cored 2 goals in 2 WCs, he has flopped hard.I dont care how bad his teammates are (hell they aren't even that bad,pls stop underrating Argentina),he should have been better considering he is considered a top 3 player of all time.

Messi has 1 goal, but how on earth was he a flop? If I recall correctly in 2006 he wasn't in the field when they were eliminated, and 2010 Argentina got mauled 0-4 because of the farcical defense and coach.

The excuses don't matter,bottom line is that he is yet to be a highlight in a international competition(no olympics pls) meanwhile Cruyff,Maradona and Pele were(Cruyff reached a final,Maradona won 1 and reached a final,Pele won 3).

Messi is a top 3 player of all time,but people want to ignore the fact he hasnt done shet with Argentina unlike the other greats.

Messi WC10 is actually at least on par with Maradona WC90, and I don't recall anyone saying he flopped then.

Maradona WC90 0 goals, 2 assists, involved in 1 other goal.
Messi WC10 0 goals, 4 assists, involved in 4 other goals.

The thing was, where as Messi didn't get any help in the QF, Maradona got carried first against Yugoslavia by the defence and Goycochea, then he got again the same help against Italy, just so he would then lose the final.

Great Leader Sprucenuce wrote:

7amood11 wrote:Definitely a top 25 player. If Messi didn't exist, he would be by far considered the best player in the world atm. His goal-scoring records are absolutely ridiculous, very few strikers have been able to replicate.

Plenty of players in history have similar goalscoring records but are not remembered as a top 25 player.

Its simply not enough, the best players ever were players who were still GOATs even if they can't finish without CR's finishing he isn't even a top 20 player of today he has no other redeeming qualities.

Unlike Messi who would still be the best player in the world even if his finishing was crap.

Why do you think everyone talks about Di Stefano and not Puskas? despite Puskas being a much superior goalscorer?

I don't think people realise how many great players their have been to say CR is top 50-100 is not disrespecting him.

Fair point, can't argue with that. But out of curiosity, can you name me 5 strikers (apart from Messi and Mueller) who have similar goal-scoring records?

Beautiful Football wrote:

Ganso wrote:

Beautiful Football wrote:

No he is better than him why because Zico had a chance to shine in Europe.
He did ok at the age of 30.But not like messi. He had one of the best talented
team in the history of football to lead in the world cup but failed.If messi had that team brazil would became Winner in 1982 IMO

Did you even watch the 1982 Brazil vs Italy ?Im sure Messi wouldnt have done much better.Messi has scored 2 goals in 2 WCs, he has flopped hard.I dont care how bad his teammates are (hell they aren't even that bad,pls stop underrating Argentina),he should have been better considering he is considered a top 3 player of all time.

Are you comparing brazil 1982 to Argentina 2010 Maradona as coach.

In 2006 he did not even play that match against Germany how did he flop.

With maradona No Team is going to win a world cup does not matter how good the team are.Why, Because that dude does not have a single clue about tactics.

I said that Messi wouldn't have done much better than Zico in that match vs Italy, not comparing Brazil 1982 and 2010 Argentina at all

As for Ganso Do you know Brazil 82 was best team ever not to win the world cup till now that how good that team was. And Last question did zico have maradona as a coach? did he played out of position?

Harmonica wrote:

Ganso wrote:

Harmonica wrote:Messi has 1 goal, but how on earth was he a flop? If I recall correctly in 2006 he wasn't in the field when they were eliminated, and 2010 Argentina got mauled 0-4 because of the farcical defense and coach.

The excuses don't matter,bottom line is that he is yet to be a highlight in a international competition(no olympics pls) meanwhile Cruyff,Maradona and Pele were(Cruyff reached a final,Maradona won 1 and reached a final,Pele won 3).

Messi is a top 3 player of all time,but people want to ignore the fact he hasnt done shet with Argentina unlike the other greats.

Messi WC10 is actually at least on par with Maradona WC90, and I don't recall anyone saying he flopped then.

Maradona WC90 0 goals, 2 assists, involved in 1 other goal.
Messi WC10 0 goals, 4 assists, involved in 4 other goals.

The thing was, where as Messi didn't get any help in the QF, Maradona got carried first against Yugoslavia by the defence and Goycochea, then he got again the same help against Italy, just so he would then lose the final.

Maradona was at the end of his career in 1990.And still he won the WC 4 years earlier while being the best player and that's what matters

Ganso wrote:

Harmonica wrote:

Ganso wrote:The excuses don't matter,bottom line is that he is yet to be a highlight in a international competition(no olympics pls) meanwhile Cruyff,Maradona and Pele were(Cruyff reached a final,Maradona won 1 and reached a final,Pele won 3).

Messi is a top 3 player of all time,but people want to ignore the fact he hasnt done shet with Argentina unlike the other greats.

Messi WC10 is actually at least on par with Maradona WC90, and I don't recall anyone saying he flopped then.

Maradona WC90 0 goals, 2 assists, involved in 1 other goal.
Messi WC10 0 goals, 4 assists, involved in 4 other goals.

The thing was, where as Messi didn't get any help in the QF, Maradona got carried first against Yugoslavia by the defence and Goycochea, then he got again the same help against Italy, just so he would then lose the final.

Maradona was at the end of his career in 1990.And still he won the WC 4 years earlier while being the best player and that's what matters

So Messi didn't flop?

Beautiful Football wrote:As for Ganso Do you know Brazil 82 was best team ever not to win the world cup till now that how good that team was. And Last question did zico have maradona as a coach? did he played out of position?

dude,as i said i dont care about excuses, that argument is just like when people say Messi is this good only because of Barca,bottom line is that he has done noting with Argentina and the others did.

7amood11 wrote:

Great Leader Sprucenuce wrote:

7amood11 wrote:Definitely a top 25 player. If Messi didn't exist, he would be by far considered the best player in the world atm. His goal-scoring records are absolutely ridiculous, very few strikers have been able to replicate.

Plenty of players in history have similar goalscoring records but are not remembered as a top 25 player.

Its simply not enough, the best players ever were players who were still GOATs even if they can't finish without CR's finishing he isn't even a top 20 player of today he has no other redeeming qualities.

Unlike Messi who would still be the best player in the world even if his finishing was crap.

Why do you think everyone talks about Di Stefano and not Puskas? despite Puskas being a much superior goalscorer?

I don't think people realise how many great players their have been to say CR is top 50-100 is not disrespecting him.

Fair point, can't argue with that. But out of curiosity, can you name me 5 strikers (apart from Messi and Mueller) who have similar goal-scoring records?

Puskas, Eusebio, Pele, Romario, Van Basten and thats off the top of my head.

There are probably more if i was to do a bit of research.

Ganso wrote:

Beautiful Football wrote:

Ganso wrote:Did you even watch the 1982 Brazil vs Italy ?Im sure Messi wouldnt have done much better.Messi has scored 2 goals in 2 WCs, he has flopped hard.I dont care how bad his teammates are (hell they aren't even that bad,pls stop underrating Argentina),he should have been better considering he is considered a top 3 player of all time.

Are you comparing brazil 1982 to Argentina 2010 Maradona as coach.

In 2006 he did not even play that match against Germany how did he flop.

With maradona No Team is going to win a world cup does not matter how good the team are.Why, Because that dude does not have a single clue about tactics.

I said that Messi wouldn't have done much better than Zico in that match vs Italy, not comparing Brazil 1982 and 2010 Argentina at all

Ok messi in barca has similar quality of player like brazil 1982 Zico's team mate.Most of the time he(messi) is unstoopable. But i agree Messi may not have done much better in a single match,its possible.But again we never know.

But I believe messi dominant so much in club level in highest quality which zico did not.And that's why i think messi is better than zico.Not to mention Zico's Achievement is inferior to messi as well.

Ganso wrote:

Beautiful Football wrote:As for Ganso Do you know Brazil 82 was best team ever not to win the world cup till now that how good that team was. And Last question did zico have maradona as a coach? did he played out of position?

dude,as i said i dont care about excuses, that argument is just like when people say Messi is this good only because of Barca,bottom line is that he has done noting with Argentina and the others did.

So cruyff and di stefano did nothing as well and they considered top 5 player of all time. so we can count messi as well thats what i am saying.And messi is still 25 he has still 10 years in club level and at least 2 more world cup.We will see by this time.

Messi is better than Zico, I think everyone agrees with that.

Cruyff did nothing?what about WC 1974?Di Stefano only played one WC when he was old and in decline.Messi is rated higher than Di Stefano so that doesn't really matter

Ganso wrote:Messi is better than Zico, I think everyone agrees with that.

Cruyff did nothing?what about WC 1974?Di Stefano only played one WC when he was old and in decline.Messi is rated higher than Di Stefano so that doesn't really matter

Yes cruyff did have better world cup then messi .i agree.then again messi dominant club level so much no one did since pele and he is only 25. As for now messi still got time to do something in the world cup.Not to mention at club level.

If People say Messi is the best ever and than say CR is Top 25 or Top 35 than you know its all about sympathy because the two players do the exact thing to score a a lot of goals.

How can you say Messi is better than Zico? Zico had 30 or more goals for 10 straight seasons... 3 of those were over 40 and 6 of them over 50 lol. In 1983, he scored 81 goals.

I'm sorry, but you kids need look farther than just in front of your noses. Messi has had 5 fantastic seasons.... amongst the best 5 of anyone arguably. However, he is not amongst the top 10, let alone the top 5 until he does this for another 3 years and he actually plays well with Argentina NT. He doesn't need to win with Argentina NT because footy is not guaranteed; they just need to play well. For example, Zico's Brazil NT never won the WC. But each of their exits in the 3 WCs he participated in were after legendary matches. I'll never forget those games.

WC2014 is crucial for Messi's standing historically imo.

ARIARAIDEN wrote:If People say Messi is the best ever and than say CR is Top 25 or Top 35 than you know its all about sympathy because the two players do the exact thing to score a a lot of goals.

Again goals goals . Its not all about goal its how you play,how much you contribute, how you bring others player in to the game.it seems so many people only see CR goals, that they even forget there is some other parts as well in a player Quality. That's unavailable.

And in the case of CR7... he is one of the best players of his generation just from the sheer force of his stats. But honestly, i'm not a fan of his game. I don't consider him a Madrid legend so that should tell you where i stand. But i may be a bit of hater lol.

sportsczy wrote:How can you say Messi is better than Zico? Zico had 30 or more goals for 10 straight seasons... 3 of those were over 40 and 6 of them over 50 lol. In 1983, he scored 81 goals.

Where on earth did you take those stats?

Zico scored 30 or more 4 straight seasons, twice, three of the 8 being over 40 and once over 50, 65 in 1979.

sportsczy wrote:How can you say Messi is better than Zico? Zico had 30 or more goals for 10 straight seasons... 3 of those were over 40 and 6 of them over 50 lol. In 1983, he scored 81 goals.

I'm sorry, but you kids need look farther than just in front of your noses. Messi has had 5 fantastic seasons.... amongst the best 5 of anyone arguably. However, he is not amongst the top 10, let alone the top 5 until he does this for another 3 years and he actually plays well with Argentina NT. He doesn't need to win with Argentina NT because footy is not guaranteed; they just need to play well. For example, Zico's Brazil NT never won the WC. But each of their exits in the 3 WCs he participated in were after legendary matches. I'll never forget those games.

WC2014 is crucial for Messi's standing historically imo.

I am sorry are you comparing Brazilian 80's leauge to Todays modern european Football. scoring in brazil that time prove nothing.Cause romario did score 1000 goals but he is not in messi's leauge. lol when Zico played in europe with udinese his highest score was 30,And its says all about Brazilian 80's leauge.

Brazilian leauge Was strongest in 60 and 70. And then started decline.

Beautiful Football wrote:Brazilian leauge Was strongest in 60 and 70. And then started decline.

There was no Brazilian league in 60's.