Mamad wrote:Roma total Shots : 13
Roma chances created : 9
Roma corners : 11

Actual shots on goal: 4

Doc wrote:

futbol_bill wrote:For the life of me, I can’t understand the constant criticism of Ramos, especially after last night. Do you realize that Roma only had FOUR shots on net?

That had nothing to do with Ramos though, I dare say, that was in spite of Ramos' inability to be a normal God damn defender.

If it weren't for Varane being awesome and Casemiro being great at intercepting and tackling, Ramos would have had way more criticism to deal with.

And you say I watch thru tinted lenses!

Actual shots on goal: 4

So what if a player gets one on one with keeper and shoots the ball out? that doesn't count as a chance to score?

Well, I don't think I ever said that but yes, you do. You and Sports have some serious bias that is totally understandable obviously but bias nonetheless.

I submit that you also have some negative bias when it comes to some players. You guys make it sound as if defense was awful in large part to one individual yet they won comfortably, had a clean sheet and only allowed 4 shots on goal.

There are plenty of games where I would agree with you, but definitely not this one.

Put it this way, compare the Ramos from the CL final to this game......

It wasn't a bad performance by any means like the one he showed last weekend but he shows far too much complacency at times. At one point he was making one-twos at the opposite end like he was Benz. He sometimes looks like he is bored of always staying back so plays like a CM and as soon as they get past him, they have a free run unless Casemiro saves his ass like he always does. Look at Under's shot, wtf is Ramos doing at the half way line. It's bad ebough having Marcelo play like he is a LF, can't have Ramos like he is a midfielder too.

Even when we're winning 2-0 Roma still had 2v2s 3v3s because Ramos was so undisciplined. I have no doubt in my mind when he puts his mind to it he is he is the absolute best CB in the world. But just look at the trip up he does when he already has a yellow, the ref even put his arms out like "wtf, are you begging for a red"

Also just because Roma only got 4 shots on target doesn't mean we were perfect at the back. Their attackers made some pretty bad choices when they were countering 3v1, 3v2. If they were a LL team they would've scored at least a couple. All down to Marcelo and Ramos being incredibly undisciplined. Ramos wants his goals, he is getting even more obsessed with joining in thr attack than he was last season. Lope needs to sit him down or he'll get out if control

futbol_bill wrote:I submit that you also have some negative bias when it comes to some players. You guys make it sound as if defense was awful in large part to one individual yet they won comfortably, had a clean sheet and only allowed 4 shots on goal.

There are plenty of games where I would agree with you, but definitely not this one.

Yeah and I'm saying that was very much in spite of Ramos. But to address this fully, I have a love-hate feeling towards him.

The love part: This extends beyond football, I actually look up (as much as one can towards a total stranger) to him because of the fact that he is ridiculously confident, almost to a point where it's baffling. It's a part of my entire being that I suffer from: to be confident even in the face of something you know you really have little chance to succeed. If he ran for public office, I am almost certain he'll win. It's that confidence and bravery (as well as whatever skill he has a footballer) that truly define his greatness and no matter what, I'll always be so enamored with what he is. He is a proper Madrid legend and a true representation of Madridismo. "Ramos Time" is not just saying, it's a calling for when we need a leader to do leader things, there is Sergio Ramos.

Hate: He sucks as a top class CB. Not gonna pretend, not gonna mince my words, he sucks as one. If I have to give him a grade, it'll either be B- or C+, either or, it's not a grade you supposed to give a "world class defender". And unlike Marcelo, who is a wing back and can get away with defensive unawareness (in theory), Ramos is a CB and they have one job. And more often than not, Ramos disappoints me in that department. And we'll remember the big moments, the matches where legends are made and songs are sang but majority of the time, Ramos has legit lapses of concentration, struggles with offside traps and would make midfield runs that only he can explain why he did that.

couldn't watch the game live , caught it some hours after, despite our results from the other games, this is the one that impressed me the most, modric and kroos were amazing - kroos with those xabi-like passes, and people may or may not know my dislike of isco but he balled today and that free kick. it was similar to the one he hit against italy, only this time, goalie barely moved, that says how deadly the shot is

he says he is an expert in taking them from that angle, to have him hit them on that flank and bale on the opposite flank is a dangerous combo for any wall or goalie. it looked a regular free kick, it looked slow, but the goalie didn't even move so it must have been fast at the same time, hard to explain

a good game, but defense. as i've said people love the offensive part of the game, but i'd like to see some discipline at the back, make opposing forwards uncomfortable. navas did way too much work than i would have liked, way too much....if i were him, i'd have a word with the backline

So you are basing the negative comments about Ramos on his taking part in offense! As a result he does get caught out of position occasionally. I will give you that! I’ll also give you he is overly agressive at times, plus quick tempered. But aside from that I maintain he is WC.

Perhaps it’s a different expectation we Spanish have re CBs. They, almost all of them have played other positions. And our concept of offense is everyone is involved. Look at others we have had from Hierro to Puyol to Pique to Ramos. All are well involved in the offense. With NT, both CBs were constantly up high, and occasionally even take a run like a striker. I’m not talking Ramos here, all of the CBs mentioned above did this. There was a difference in this game in that Varane always stayed back, even when it was a corner kick. I’ll bet this was on instructions from Lopetequi. So Hala, I’m assuming Lopetequi has had that conversation with him and has encouraged it.

So while you guys obviously don’t like this offensive role of Ramos, I say it is part of Loptequi’s tactics!

Was it also part of every other manager he's played for at Madrid tactics? Because he's always been a calamitous defender regardless of style.

Did any of those managers bench him for being part of offense?

They would have if they could.  Only Mourinho had the balls to call him out on it.  After the Euro and WC win for Spain, he was basically untouchable.

And that's not at all what Doc said btw.  Not even a little bit.  He's out of position a lot of times whether he goes on his insane forward runs or not.

He was better defensively (although not good consistently) over the past 2-3 years.  But he's lost his mind this season again.  Maybe that one is on Lopetegui.  But the bottom line is that fullbacks have the option to attack regularly.  Not CBs.  The only time a CB pushes forward like that should be if the field is wide open and he can carry the ball that far...  Ramos actually gives up the ball early and then makes runs as if he's a CF.  It's ridiculous unless you're in desperation mode chasing the score.  Even then, you want midfielders taking those risks...  not CBs.

He just has a really big opinion of himself to go along with having a very low IQ out there.

THAT SAID, very good captain, inspirational leader and big game player.  If we're rating him overall, I'd rather have him on Madrid then anywhere else.  BUT he does cost us fairly often and the issue is fixable... but he doesn't want to fix himself, which is the frustrating part.

I'm surprised Roma didn't pressure our midfield. The formula against us is pretty well known.

Yeah we have the best midfield in world according to most analysts and you say that’s our weakness. Where do you come up with this nonsense!

And stop spouting out your opinion as if it is fact!
This TEAM has played surprising well this season and is very enjoyable to watch. Only bad moments were tie against Bilbao and lost to Atleti (which was due in large part to late arriving WC participants running out of gas). So tell me exactly how Ramos has cost us?

That's why you pressure our midfield...  because giving them space is suicide.  You want to get the ball out of the feet of our midfielders as quickly as possible.  They're the most likely to kill you if you allow them to play their normal game.

ffs dude.  what is wrong with you.

So you are basing the negative comments about Ramos on his taking part in offense! As a result he does get caught out of position occasionally. I will give you that! I’ll also give you he is overly aggressive at times, plus quick tempered. But aside from that I maintain he is WC.

I know I wrote more than just "taking part in the offense". In fact:

Ramos has legit lapses of concentration, struggles with offside traps and would make midfield runs that only he can explain why he did that.

This is not something that spring up under Lope, this has been him since he came, whether it be a RB or CB. This has not changed at all.

sportsczy wrote:

ffs dude.  what is wrong with you.

Because, I happen to think that this Madrid of Lopetequi is much more exciting and dangerous, as a Team, than we have seen in years as yes Ramos is a large part of that.

So because of that belief, I question the constant criticism of Ramos.

And here you come constantly having criticism of anything Spanish, and you say ff what is wrong with you??

I say what’s f up with you? From my perspective, everything is good, let’s wait and see how this season pans out!

you need to take it easy man. nobody is targeting you or Spain. we're Real Madrid fans ffs. do you think anyone who dislikes Spain would be a RM fan? that's just paranoia and a fragile ego talking.

sportsczy wrote:that's just paranoia and a fragile ego talking.

You and Chad in a nutshell. Just add some water and a pinch of arrogance