Re: Spanish Super Cup: Bilbao-Barcelona

by The Franchise Sat Aug 15, 2015 12:12 pm

The arrogance

First on here, reading through the first page on this thread.

Then Enrique to play such a terrible team. You can already see the team struggling all through pre season and against Sevilla to defend properly. We have Sevilla 15 shots I believe. Many think the preseason means nothing...I dont. I think if you play poorly in preseason you wont suddenly turn it. You have to play preseason with an desire to improve, not run through the motions and "gain fitness".

They defended poorly then and they defend poorly now.

On an invidiually level I dont understand the Mats criticism.

If we look at the goals one by one, I am not seeing what he did so wrong. The first one, he headed the ball to the half way line...what more can he really do than that with a header? It was just a fantastic shot, once in a career for someone like San Jose.

2nd goal Mascherano got owned...because he isnt a CB. Like he wasnt a CB since the last 5 years. The ball went into the sides, I dont know what chance he was supposed to have to save that.

The 3rd is a question. I dont think he should have saved it, but it wasnt in the corner. It would have been a super save but the truly elite might of had a chance, but I doubt it.

4th was a pen.

Likewise the Sevilla goals. Had zero chance was any of them.

The only thing I agree with what Alex said about communication, that is viable.

This notion of changing Bravo in and "we'll be fine" is a laughable one. Goalie is the least of the issues.

by alexjanosik Sat Aug 15, 2015 12:36 pm

Bravo alone wont solve the defensive issues. But we have struggled in pre season defending set pieces. I think Bravo can help us a bit more with that as he is a better communicator and seems more assured about when to come for the ball and when not to(on setpieces).
I didnt see the game(dont intend to now after reading everyone's comment) so cant comment on Ter Stegen's performance.My comments on Ter Stegen were in general.
For a GK who has a reputation as an exceptional shot stopper, I cant recall any blinders he has pulled off for us. Maybe it is a confidence thing and once he has the backing of the coach and has fully established himself as the number 1, we will see him pull off those blinders.

Where is rwo when we need her.Need the inputs of the forum goalkeeping expert.

by Myesyats Sat Aug 15, 2015 12:44 pm

By we'll be fine i didn't mean that it would suddenly solve all our defensive problems but it's a start.... Bravo is way more experienced and knows spanish perfectly.

Our clean sheet run of 7 games last season was actually with Claudio in goal and it wasnt a coincidence

by rwo power Sat Aug 15, 2015 1:15 pm

alexjanosik wrote:Ter Stegen is a conundrum. On the one hand, he is the best passing goalkeeper I have ever seen.Just on another level with either keep. But on pure goalkeeping skills, Bravo is much better right now.
And I dont think it is a coincidence that we look much more assured in defense with Bravo in goal. For one, Bravo is much better at organizing his defense. You can see him constantly talking to the defense in front, telling them what to do, especially during set pieces. Ter Stegen doesnt communicate a lot and seems rather meek. He doesnt communicate with the defense as much and cant organize them. Hence why we concede more set piece goals when Ter Stegen is in goal as opposed to Bravo. Leads to him coming for balls when he shouldnt and staying back when he should come out and claim the ball.
I have also noticed that Ter Stegen gets caught flat footed a lot.Too often, I see him rooted to the spot while the ball sails past. Maybe,it is because he just doesnt bother diving when he has no chance of getting the ball. I would like him to dive nevertheless. He had a reputation of being a brilliant shot stopper while at BMG. I have yet to see an out of this world save from him. It would help if he actually tried diving for some shots deemed not savable.
Based on what I have seen so far, I would say Bravo is a better shot stopper than Ter Stegen.

Maybe Ter Stegen just needs more time.He is after all quite young and it musnt be easy playing for us in such high pressure games at such a young age. It also doesnt help that Enrique doesnt trust him enough to make the undisputed number 1. Goalkeepers need the confidence of the coach to perform well. Maybe playing week in week out will give him more confidence and make him more authoritative.
But as of right now, I am still undecided on whether he can be our number 1 for the next decade.

IMO the problem is the MAtS doesn't play regularly week in, week out. Especially for a young goalie, experience is the most important thing, and how can he progress when he only has select (albeit extraordinary) matches, but not the common bread and butter of the league?

The mistakes he makes often come from missing the understanding with the defense - but how can he properly build an understanding of how they act in competitive situations when he doesn't play often enough? IMO your coach does him no favour insiting on the GK roation as he impedes his development and in the worst case even throws him back.

The Franchise wrote:If we look at the goals one by one, I am not seeing what he did so wrong. The first one, he headed the ball to the half way line...what more can he really do than that with a header? It was just a fantastic shot, once in a career for someone like San Jose.

I remember a certain other goalie conceeding a veritable twin of that goal Laughing

by futbol Sat Aug 15, 2015 3:06 pm

The Stankovic goal immediately came to my mind as well. 9 out of 10 times there is no chance for a player to hit the goal from the halfway line and the goalkeeper will get praised for his sweeping. 1 out of 10 times he'll look like a dick.

Having said that, there was no need for ter Stegen to do that in this instance. He had time and space to bring the ball down instead of one-time heading it away. There was also no need to try and dribble Agüero for example. He needs to cut out trying to play heroball and only do it when necessary. He also almost f'ed up in the Gamper when he came out to get the ball like 50 yards away from his goal line and failed miserably. That time the shot didn't go in but it was a similar situation where he left his goal totally empty.

He's been a Zubi signing so he's cursed anyway. We should hijack the De Gea deal. United will gladly sell to us. Straight swap with Pedro.

by alexjanosik Sat Aug 15, 2015 3:28 pm

Wouldnt mind that actually if only to irritate Mehdrid. They hijacked Danilo when it seemed we were looking at him as an Alves replacement.
Given his Atletico connection, De Gea would probably prefer us too.
Pedro and Ter Stegen for De Gea plus 30 million. Win win all around. United get a replacement keeper and Pedro. We get the Spanish number 1 GK who is more ready than Ter Stegen at this stage of their careers.
De Gea is happy and so is Ter Stegen at being the number 1 at a top club.
The cherry on top.Mehdrid get screwed big time.

by À bout de souffle Sat Aug 15, 2015 4:03 pm

@ alexjanosik,
"I have yet to see an out of this world save from him."

Kindly mention the saves of such description from Bravo from his 37 or so matches for us.

@futbol,

Already giving up on your compatriot? Me disappoint.
And I didn't think you actually rate Dic gea that highly. The guy was leaking goals early last season, conceding 5 to leicester et al. Even Van haal had doubts over him, which he seem to allude to later on. But he persisted with him due to lack of options, and he hit top form. Despite, he's still prone to slip-ups. Seems like you all have bought to the ManU hype around him. If Dic gea is not played regularly, he would suffer the same as MatS. The prob is Lucho just prefers overrated oldies. May be I'm in the minority, but MAtS has as high a ceiling as Dic gea, but he's being mismanaged. Besides, the former's custom-made for Barca.

And if we are really want to let go of MAtS, I'd rather just promote one of Ortola/Ondoa for a back-up. Dic gea, thanks, but no thanks.

by alexjanosik Sat Aug 15, 2015 4:58 pm

I cant recall the exact matches but I do think I have seen a couple from Bravo.Will have to check which matches though.
Point was more that,for a player who came in with a reputation of being an outstanding shot stopper, MATS stands rooted to the spot quite often. It is true however that the best keepers dont normally make otherworldly saves on a weekly basis. They earn their bread and butter through outstanding positioning and command of the box.

The De Gea comment was more in jest.Madrid took one of our targets. Would be fun paying them back. I am all for making MATS the undisputed number 1 and giving him a fair shot. If he is the real deal, he will eventually come good.
Unfortunately we have a manager who prefers scrubs and oldies.

BTW,why the De Gea hate?

by Valkyrja Sat Aug 15, 2015 5:12 pm

alexjanosik wrote:I cant recall the exact matches but I do think I have seen a couple from Bravo.Will have to check which matches though.
Point was more that,for a player who came in with a reputation of being an outstanding shot stopper, MATS stands rooted to the spot quite often. It is true however that the best keepers dont normally make otherworldly saves on a weekly basis. They earn their bread and butter through outstanding positioning and command of the box.

The De Gea comment was more in jest.Madrid took one of our targets. Would be fun paying them back. I am all for making MATS the undisputed number 1 and giving him a fair shot. If he is the real deal, he will eventually come good.
Unfortunately we have a manager who prefers scrubs and oldies.

BTW,why the De Gea hate?

The main reason De Gea wants Madrid is because of the city. His GF wants to live in madrid

btw

Spanish Super Cup: Bilbao-Barcelona - Page 3 10950520_400818873454187_2053420449_n

Spanish Super Cup: Bilbao-Barcelona - Page 3 10950520_400818873454187_2053420449_n

what revenge ? Sad

by V Sat Aug 15, 2015 5:20 pm

by À bout de souffle Sat Aug 15, 2015 5:39 pm

alexjanosik wrote:I cant recall the exact matches but I do think I have seen a couple from Bravo.Will have to check which matches though.
Point was more that,for a player who came in with a reputation of being an outstanding shot stopper, MATS stands rooted to the spot quite often. It is true however that the best keepers dont normally make otherworldly saves on a weekly basis. They earn their bread and butter through outstanding positioning and command of the box.

Aye. He's still on a learning curve. But knowing that the coach prefers his challenger whose media discourse has been one of disrespect towards him must not be great for his confidence. In any case, regular game time should alleviate many of the gk issues he's facing. But it won't happen as long as Scrubrique remains.

Bravo had a dream start to his barca career, and it's been smooth sailing ever since. He's in peak form, and his confidence is high.
MAtS had a rocky start (injuries, PSG debacle), and he's had tougher challenges to surmount given how he's managed. The uncertainty must affect his confidence, and it shows when he plays.
It has nothing to do with ability (mats takes that one) but one of circumstances. If tom a new manager reversed roles. It would be Bravo feeling the heat.

Talking about saves: MAtS' vs Lewa, and vs Vietto beats Bravo's vs Benzema etc. IMO ofc.

The De Gea comment was more in jest.Madrid took one of our targets. Would be fun paying them back. I am all for making MATS the undisputed number 1 and giving him a fair shot. If he is the real deal, he will eventually come good.
Unfortunately we have a manager who prefers scrubs and oldies.

BTW,why the De Gea hate?

For starters, those who keep Mendes as their agent are merc. He's been dicking around with ManU at his agent and Madrid's behest after having received the platform to develop when his employers could have long moved him on.
Secondly, the demi-god status he's been elevated to, by the ManU fans doesn't correspond to reality. I watch him on a regular basis, and he doesn't strike me as anything extraordinary. His launches need a certain fellaini to make it relevant, and his coming off his lines still needs working. His high claims, and shot stopping is good, I'll give him that. He can thank his defense for that, however. Laughing

Conspiring Mendes client+overrated = Dic gea.

by futbol Sat Aug 15, 2015 5:46 pm

À bout de souffle wrote:
@futbol,

Already giving up on your compatriot? Me disappoint.
And I didn't think you actually rate Dic gea that highly. The guy was leaking goals early last season, conceding 5 to leicester et al. Even Van haal had doubts over him, which he seem to allude to later on. But he persisted with him due to lack of options, and he hit top form. Despite, he's still prone to slip-ups. Seems like you all have bought to the ManU hype around him. If Dic gea is not played regularly, he would suffer the same as MatS. The prob is Lucho just prefers overrated oldies. May be I'm in the minority, but MAtS has as high a ceiling as Dic gea, but he's being mismanaged. Besides, the former's custom-made for Barca.

And if we are really want to let go of MAtS, I'd rather just promote one of Ortola/Ondoa for a back-up. Dic gea, thanks, but no thanks.

I'm not saying this because I've given up on him. I also don't think De Gea is this mega keeper which United fans are portraying him to be just because he's their only class player. However, if MAtS is going to be thrown into the tough games once every few weeks with no rythm and then murdered by the press and fans for inevitably showing weaknesses then it's maybe better to let him go where he would be the nailed on number 1 and given time to actually develop while at the same time getting a ready, young, Spanish keeper who'd have a lot more backing from the fans and Spanish press as Spain's future #1 than MAtS.

Also I'm not really serious. Although it would make sense for all parties it would never happen that Barca would swap ter Stegen after 1 season. De Gea and Madrid probably have all sorts of pre deals in place already anyway.

by Rebaño Sagrado Sat Aug 15, 2015 5:55 pm

This is an English speaking board. Please change the title of the thread.

by alexjanosik Sat Aug 15, 2015 5:58 pm

À bout de souffle wrote:
alexjanosik wrote:I cant recall the exact matches but I do think I have seen a couple from Bravo.Will have to check which matches though.
Point was more that,for a player who came in with a reputation of being an outstanding shot stopper, MATS stands rooted to the spot quite often. It is true however that the best keepers dont normally make otherworldly saves on a weekly basis. They earn their bread and butter through outstanding positioning and command of the box.

Aye. He's still on a learning curve. But knowing that the coach prefers his challenger whose media discourse has been one of disrespect towards him must not be great for his confidence. In any case, regular game time should alleviate many of the gk issues he's facing. But it won't happen as long as Scrubrique remains.

Bravo had a dream start to his barca career, and it's been smooth sailing ever since. He's in peak form, and his confidence is high.
MAtS had a rocky start (injuries, PSG debacle), and he's had tougher challenges to surmount given how he's managed. The uncertainty must affect his confidence, and it shows when he plays.
It has nothing to do with ability (mats takes that one) but one of circumstances. If tom a new manager reversed roles. It would be Bravo feeling the heat.

Talking about saves: MAtS' vs Lewa, and vs Vietto beats Bravo's vs Benzema etc. IMO ofc.

The De Gea comment was more in jest.Madrid took one of our targets. Would be fun paying them back. I am all for making MATS the undisputed number 1 and giving him a fair shot. If he is the real deal, he will eventually come good.
Unfortunately we have a manager who prefers scrubs and oldies.

BTW,why the De Gea hate?

For starters, those who keep Mendes as their agent are merc. He's been dicking around with ManU at his agent and Madrid's behest after having received the platform to develop when his employers could have long moved him on.
Secondly, the demi-god status he's been elevated to, by the ManU fans doesn't correspond to reality. I watch him on a regular basis, and he doesn't strike me as anything extraordinary. His launches need a certain fellaini to make it relevant, and his coming off his lines still needs working. His high claims, and shot stopping is good, I'll give him that. He can thank his defense for that, however.

Conspiring Mendes client+overrated = Dic gea.

Could you elaborate on what you mean by Bravo being disrespectful towards MATS in the media?Has Bravo made any disparaging remarks?First I am hearing of this but then I am not as attuned to such news as most of you on here.This forum is my main source of news regarding off pitch affairs.
We agree on Enrique.Nothing to say there.

I dont read too much into De Gea wanting to move. I dont view him in a negative light for it.It is the reality of modern football unfortunately.No such thing as loyalty.
Our very own Suarez wanted to move to Arsenal before he eventually came to us.But I understand why you feel that way.
I dont agree with your assessment of De Gea the keeper. I think he is an outstanding keeper and deserves all the hype.Sensational shot stopper and has developed his box game in the premier league. I also think he is quite good with the ball at his feet. Not MATS level good but still good enough.Whats more.He is young and has more room for improvement.

by À bout de souffle Sat Aug 15, 2015 6:02 pm

futbol wrote:
I'm not saying this because I've given up on him. I also don't think De Gea is this mega keeper which United fans are portraying him to be just because he's their only class player. However, if MAtS is going to be thrown into the tough games once every few weeks with no rythm and then murdered by the press and fans for inevitably showing weaknesses then it's maybe better to let him go where he would be the nailed on number 1 and given time to actually develop while at the same time getting a ready, young, Spanish keeper who'd have a lot more backing from the fans and Spanish press as Spain's future #1 than MAtS.

Spain's future #1 is Iñaki Peña. Dic gea is just a pretender. Razz

Also I'm not really serious. Although it would make sense for all parties it would never happen that Barca would swap ter Stegen after 1 season. De Gea and Madrid probably have all sorts of pre deals in place already anyway.

Such a transaction would not be possible this window. Dic gea will have to agree to sit out till Jan, whilst MAtS will have to rotate with Romero @ ManU. The latter was LVG's signing and has his trust. Imagine going from competing with Bravo then doing the same at another top club but fighting it out with Romero this time. Laughing

It's more likely Barca uses him as a back-up for another season, and use him in a deal to bring Pogba next summer. Juve were seriously in for MAtS as a buffon replacement back when zubi quickly kidnapped him. Laughing

by alexjanosik Sat Aug 15, 2015 6:07 pm

Valkyrja wrote:
alexjanosik wrote:I cant recall the exact matches but I do think I have seen a couple from Bravo.Will have to check which matches though.
Point was more that,for a player who came in with a reputation of being an outstanding shot stopper, MATS stands rooted to the spot quite often. It is true however that the best keepers dont normally make otherworldly saves on a weekly basis. They earn their bread and butter through outstanding positioning and command of the box.

The De Gea comment was more in jest.Madrid took one of our targets. Would be fun paying them back. I am all for making MATS the undisputed number 1 and giving him a fair shot. If he is the real deal, he will eventually come good.
Unfortunately we have a manager who prefers scrubs and oldies.

BTW,why the De Gea hate?

The main reason De Gea wants Madrid is because of the city. His GF wants to live in madrid

btw

what revenge ?

As I mentioned,not really serious.But I dont want another young crack talent going to Madrid. You guys have quite the roster already with the likes of Varane, James,Isco etc.
Meanwhile,we buy scrubs who will be collecting pension in a couple of years.

by windkick Sat Aug 15, 2015 6:11 pm

This is no longer a Bilbao Barcelona thread but....

A Real Madrid goal keeper situation thread? Who cares what they do we got our own problems

by À bout de souffle Sat Aug 15, 2015 6:21 pm

alexjanosik wrote:
Could you elaborate on what you mean by Bravo being disrespectful towards MATS in the media?Has Bravo made any disparaging remarks?First I am hearing of this but then I am not as attuned to such news as most of you on here.This forum is my main source of news regarding off pitch affairs.
We agree on Enrique.Nothing to say there.

First off,

His RAC1 interview from summer last year reeked of arrogance, when he reminded the interviewer that he was signed by the coach, and by such virtue he didn't have to worry about his place.

Then during the course of the season, he made a dig @ stegen's celebration.
His exact quotes: "When the team scores, I celebrate with the fans. I prefer that to jumping around like a fool in the penalty area."

Recently, when he was asked about MAtS' early return to pre-season, he said:
"If I was worried, I would jump on a plane and get to pre-season early, but that's not the case. I know my characteristics, I know what I have to do."

Completely disregarding that he himself cut short couple of his Intl break last season to strengthen his place. Laughing

I would have given him the benefit of the doubt, if he wasn't d*ckish in general. Being caught mocking the cavani incident in public. What a classy captain and vet. Obviously NOT.

by CBarca Sat Aug 15, 2015 7:24 pm

Not concerned about losing the trophy but our defense has been atrocious. This has been a long time coming tbh.

What really concerned me in the Sevilla game and I bet it was the same here was the complete lack of control we had at times. Certainly a byproduct of this Enrique team compared to the team we had with Pep. I understand that's how we are now but we're still a good team that shouldn't lose control of the game as much as we have done.

by windkick Sat Aug 15, 2015 8:32 pm

À bout de souffle wrote:
alexjanosik wrote:
Could you elaborate on what you mean by Bravo being disrespectful towards MATS in the media?Has Bravo made any disparaging remarks?First I am hearing of this but then I am not as attuned to such news as most of you on here.This forum is my main source of news regarding off pitch affairs.
We agree on Enrique.Nothing to say there.

First off,

His RAC1 interview from summer last year reeked of arrogance, when he reminded the interviewer that he was signed by the coach, and by such virtue he didn't have to worry about his place.

Then during the course of the season, he made a dig @ stegen's celebration.
His exact quotes: "When the team scores, I celebrate with the fans. I prefer that to jumping around like a fool in the penalty area."

Recently, when he was asked about MAtS' early return to pre-season, he said:
"If I was worried, I would jump on a plane and get to pre-season early, but that's not the case. I know my characteristics, I know what I have to do."

Completely disregarding that he himself cut short couple of his Intl break last season to strengthen his place.
I would have given him the benefit of the doubt, if he wasn't d*ckish in general. Being caught mocking the cavani incident in public. What a classy captain and vet. Obviously NOT.

I also caught that. Pretty shitty on his end to be like that

by Myesyats Sun Aug 16, 2015 12:45 am

These quotes legit? I remember reading 'em some time ago but i'm still not sure if he actually said all that. I dunno, he doesn't go off like a cocky type guy, not at all...

by Myesyats Sun Aug 16, 2015 12:49 am

Rebaño Sagrado wrote:This is an English speaking board. Please change the title of the thread.

Done sir

Sorry for any inconvenience

by Hapless_Hans Sun Aug 16, 2015 1:36 am

linetty wrote:
Rebaño Sagrado wrote:This is an English speaking board. Please change the title of the thread.

Done sir

Sorry for any inconvenience

fairly certain that Rebs was joking hmm

by Myesyats Sun Aug 16, 2015 10:43 am

Fairly certain that i was joking as well

by Myesyats Sun Aug 16, 2015 3:40 pm

http://www.fcbarcelona.com/football/first-team/detail/article/2010-fightback-against-sevilla-is-barca-s-blueprint

Recovered from 1-3 once.

Let us dream

by futbol Sun Aug 16, 2015 3:42 pm

DAT deception when Athletic score in the first 10 minutes. Laughing

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