David Villa

Which literally has nothing to do with the topic at hand but say what...

offtopic: Adriano was best striker in the world 2005-2006, if we dont consider Ronaldinho as one

Benzema is 6 seasons too early to be compared to David Villa. Villa is a better footballer, better striker nad he's stats back it up, end off.

sportsczy wrote:Franchise is doing the stork in the water act... duck your head into the water and pretend the world didn't just pass you by lol.

Well if facts aren't going to work and feelings are so much more reliable, go with your feelings. What else can anyone say.

What are you talking about?

I have made countless points you have yet to even respond to.

Facts? What facts? Pointless stats which have no application in this situation. Excellent.

All your points I have clearly explained, while you continue to avoid mine.

halamadrid2 wrote:

The Franchise wrote:

halamadrid2 wrote:

The Franchise wrote:

Even in 2011, Villa scored in the CL final and he scored against Arsenal in the CL.

Who did Benz score against, even in 2011? He was so great in 2011, Mou didnt even use him off the bench in 2 games vs us....thats how great Benz is.

Beating up Zaragoza, Getafe and Lyon who finished a distant 3rd in the French league dont impress quite like Manchester Utd and Arsenal do they?

Arsenal??? since when was arsenal a top team????

what other "good" team did we actually play apart from the ajax's, milans and lyons in CL

well ozil was subbed out in one and started off the bench in the other, does that mean he was average last season???

in the first game he needed arerial presence, and was about to sub in benzema and kaka if it wasnt for pepes red card, second leg again bizzarly he chose ade over him because of his tallness, not because he was better than benzema, you can see now when pep has lots of choices he actually benches villa(seriously i can see him leaving fairly soon)

last time i checked the supercopa was part of 2011 no?? 1 goal and two asisst, to villas one that only happens/succeeds once or twice every season

Arsenal last season up untill they lost to B'Ham were FAR better then Lyon, in fact, they looked like they had a chance to win the PL. Dont try and downplay Arsenal to make a point but all the facts at the tim tell you Arsenal were very strong.(same shit different day huh?? to the point that people have even come up with an arsenal annual performance graph ffs, dont make them sound like they are a good team when they arent)

Ask any Arsenal fan, how good were they playing before that B'ham game.

You played us, and he did nothing.(in the first half season, well i agree)

He did nothing in any game against strong teams last season, he didnt even get to play in them because Mou didnt believe in him.(name the strong teams please)

Use the excuse Mou anted Ade's height, if Benzema was so great, he would of been used. Actually, if all of the players some of your fans are as great as you think, why did he even play that style in the first place?(maybe because it has proved so successful for him in the other teams he has coached, ever thought of that)

Villa has never not been used in any game due to quality, not once. (why??? is it because he had bojan on the bench as the only competitor durrhh)

Where did I say Benz was average, if you cant keep up maybe you should drop out of the thread?(maybe you should explain to me what you mean by "Mou didnt even use him off the bench in 2 games vs us....thats how great Benz is." incase i should consider taking esol lessons) insecure much

supercopa? We was talking last season..again, keep up. The orignal point was Benz was better last season.(how about you specify it by saying in the 2010/2011 season, maybe there wouldnt be such misunderstandings then, have a think about that for next time smfh)

In the future, could you please not just make you point directly under mine and colour red. It makes it harder to read.

I am sure it is easier for you to write, but it would be easier for me too. But it makes things hard to understand.

To your points.

So your saying, before the Barca game Arsenal were not a strong side? Because that is the point im making, you ned to either accept or rejet it.

When he played against them, were they not a strong side?

Not that its important, they are were a couple levels above Lyon.

Name the strong teams? How many times did you play Barca? 4 times or something? Need more evidence?

Mou choose Ade over Benz because that style did well for others teams. Well guess what, those other teams didnt use tha style to beat Barca and those other teams werent Madrid either.

Maybe because Valencia struggled in the air and let in 2 headed goals one time 2 seasons ago, we should play Pique up front instead of Villa? No, that wouldnt make sense would it.

Your playing the best team in the world, you surely play your best players, or at least the guy who supposedly is so good he is better then that great Barca's teams second top goalscorer.

Bojan? In 2011 he had Affelay..what are you talking about?

Why should I explain yet again why I mean by Mou benched Benz. This would be number 3.

And why should I specify anything. I wasnt talking to you, I was talking to someone who understand what the discussion was about.

Either you read the thread and catch up, or you get you hands of the keyboard when in this thread.

You cant come here, not read the thread, try and make a point and then complain because I am telling you your not even talking about the right things. Its your responsibility to read the thread and know what we are talking about.

IN OTHER NEWS, He scored a nice free kick today.

Again people, we're not comparing careers or even a year ago... We're assessing today. Of course Villa has had a better career so far lol.

sportsczy wrote:

This what I'm talking about franchise: cold hard facts. At first, the subject was "who's the better striker today". When the facts clearly favored Benz, then it became "who had the better season". When I presented the facts above, it shifted for a third time to "we should also include WC performance", which makes no sense incidentally since Benz wasn't even on the France roster because of an insane coach while Spain won... How far back do you intend to go to finally prove your point??? It's no longer today then. You're stating that, over the past two years, Villa is one of the better strikers.

In short, there are no facts, just personal feelings, to validate that Villa is one of the top 5 strikers in the world today. The stats above were only compared to Benz. If I started to bring in figures from all the other top guys, it would be just utterly embarrassing for Villa last year considering who is setting the table for him and the number of shots he takes.

But keep trucking. You'll eventually remold the initial premise to something that fits your conclusion.

sportsczy wrote:

sportsczy wrote:

This what I'm talking about franchise: cold hard facts. At first, the subject was "who's the better striker today". When the facts clearly favored Benz, then it became "who had the better season". When I presented the facts above, it shifted for a third time to "we should also include WC performance", which makes no sense incidentally since Benz wasn't even on the France roster because of an insane coach while Spain won... How far back do you intend to go to finally prove your point??? It's no longer today then. You're stating that, over the past two years, Villa is one of the better strikers.

In short, there are no facts, just personal feelings, to validate that Villa is one of the top 5 strikers in the world today. The stats above were only compared to Benz. If I started to bring in figures from all the other top guys, it would be just utterly embarrassing for Villa last year considering who is setting the table for him and the number of shots he takes.

But keep trucking. You'll eventually remold the initial premise to something that fits your conclusion.

I said I think 5 pages ago, you can throw as many stats as you like at me. It means nothing.

I have already explained my take on those stats, I dont understand why you insist on them.

The "facts" do not clearly state Benz. This is a thread in which the conclusion is an opinion, not a fact. So please, stop right there.

Your "stats" might favour Benz, but your stats are not the only way to judge players or even strikers. So stop pretending "stats" and "facts" are the same.

Of course it went from today to who had a better season. This thread has becomae about who is better player...its only normally to look at the most recent body of work. Come on now.

And why shouldnt it include NT performances? I didnt say WC, I said NT...Its not my problem Benz wasnt playing it in, doesnt get why that means we have to exclude what Villa has done. Scoring that many goals in the WC is a plus for Villa, why should it be excluded? Again, you fail to explain any reason why they shouldnt be included.

It doesnt say Madrid Benz v Barca Villa anywhere in this thread.

Who said over the past 2 years?

In case you didnt notice, in 2011 Villa scored against Arsenal and Man Utd..Benz scored against crap.

What you want to do, is use the 15 games of bad form to try and prove he has been overtaken. It doesnt work like that, players go on and off form, thats part of football.

To end, you can throw as many stats at me as you like. It wont change a thing.

You can dress up those stats together and try and conclude this means Benz is better and its a fact. It will not work.

This is an opinion, nobody bases there opinion on stats alone or even mostly (other then you it seems) because stats can only take you so far. Villa shot more and scored less, therefore Benz is better......this is your arguement..this is why Benz is better. I can only shake my head at such logic.

I'm observed Dani's posted over the past 2 months as I personally feel his patience is wearing thin and will eventually burnout responding to such one-dimensional posts.

Kudos to you dani as your patience and composure has been superb over the weeks as I don't possess any where near the patience to respond to such drivel.

Kind words Arq, thanks. Unfortunatly your correct, this kind of discussion plus the racism I saw during the supercup had me considering to simply stop posting and only moderate, or even leave completely.

But I think the other admins worked too hard on having this place available and without them, we would of all been some place else. I owe it to them to continue on.

But I am gradually getting tired of these kind of dicussions. I like good discussion and even long posts, but when people dont even respond to the questions you pose and continue to fire back the same arguement despite me already explaining my view on it.....patience is wearing thin. Lucky I have had practice being a coach in East London schools lol

The Franchise wrote:Kind words Arq, thanks. Unfortunatly your correct, this kind of discussion plus the racism I saw during the supercup had me considering to simply stop posting and only moderate, or even leave completely.

But I think the other admins worked too hard on having this place available and without them, we would of all been some place else. I owe it to them to continue on.

But I am gradually getting tired of these kind of dicussions. I like good discussion and even long posts, but when people dont even respond to the questions you pose and continue to fire back the same arguement despite me already explaining my view on it.....patience is wearing thin. Lucky I have had practice being a coach in East London schools lol

I suspected as I only see your passion to discuss and further expand upon topics in the Barca section with great posters like Kizz, Alex and JD etc.

Coaching? I suspected you had some experience and interest in that field judging by your impressive layouts.

Oh and BTW:

Btw Crimmy, you should see the argument i'm having with Dani about stats in the "benz v villa" discussion. The discussion revolved around who is better today. Apparently, stats are less than 50% of the equation for strikers and "feelings" are more important. When i ask to explain to me how Villa so much more impactful on the field to make for his stat deficit... i get that he was fantastic in the WC and did very well in the first half of the season last year, which of course has nothing to do with today. It's funny. It goes on and on...

Sportszy

This has become a circle jerk anyhow. It all comes down to how you evaluate the striker position and i put a lot of weight on stats for this specific position. You don't Dani and that's fine. It's just a difference of perspective.

I am also tired of entering these kinds of discussions where premises keep changing to accommodate the conclusions. Really serves no purpose. Just as your explanation on your views don't have a leg to stand on with me, mine resonate in a similar fashion with you.

Time to just let it go lol.

Don't go Dani, one of the reasons i came back is because i agreed in the old forum to leave it a week and discuss with you whether i should leave or not.

I then got myself banned a couple of days later completely the opposite of of what i promised....

I felt like i owed you one

Anyway we know who the idiots are i think its best we ignore them for now ( BTW sports you are not one of the idiots iam referring to )

Btw Dani, i disagree with you on a lot of things and we do rub each other the wrong way at times. But there's no denying that you love football and Barca... a passionate fan. Who can blame anyone for that? As far as my views, I'm just a quant jock. It's a big part of my profession. So i automatically tend to gravitate in that direction. And i'm very passionate as well lol; so i get overheated at times.

You guys are missing the point. We're looking at a snapshot in time... today. Not the past and not the future. Villa may very well suddenly go on a rampage and others may drop off.

There are four things, imo, that go into evaluating a striker: Goals, assists, efficiency and overall pitch impact. Villa has a massive stats deficit currently in terms of goals and efficiency. He's about even in assists. So does his pitch impact overcome the statistical deficit? IMO, no.

Btw, in 2002, i thought Makaay was better than R9 when you look at his entire season and impact with Deportivo. He had the best stats and the most impact. But that's just me.

Arquitecto wrote:

The Franchise wrote:Kind words Arq, thanks. Unfortunatly your correct, this kind of discussion plus the racism I saw during the supercup had me considering to simply stop posting and only moderate, or even leave completely.

But I think the other admins worked too hard on having this place available and without them, we would of all been some place else. I owe it to them to continue on.

But I am gradually getting tired of these kind of dicussions. I like good discussion and even long posts, but when people dont even respond to the questions you pose and continue to fire back the same arguement despite me already explaining my view on it.....patience is wearing thin. Lucky I have had practice being a coach in East London schools lol

I suspected as I only see your passion to discuss and further expand upon topics in the Barca section with great posters like Kizz, Alex and JD etc.

Coaching? I suspected you had some experience and interest in that field judging by your impressive layouts.

Oh and BTW:

Btw Crimmy, you should see the argument i'm having with Dani about stats in the "benz v villa" discussion. The discussion revolved around who is better today. Apparently, stats are less than 50% of the equation for strikers and "feelings" are more important. When i ask to explain to me how Villa so much more impactful on the field to make for his stat deficit... i get that he was fantastic in the WC and did very well in the first half of the season last year, which of course has nothing to do with today. It's funny. It goes on and on...

Sportszy

Yeah, I already saw, I am a admin after all lol

Needs people to back him up and try and fight his corner because nobody here is doing so, at least very well.

sportsczy wrote:This has become a circle jerk anyhow. It all comes down to how you evaluate the striker position and i put a lot of weight on stats for this specific position. You don't Dani and that's fine. It's just a difference of perspective.

I am also tired of entering these kinds of discussions where premises keep changing to accommodate the conclusions. Really serves no purpose. Just as your explanation on your views don't have a leg to stand on with me, mine resonate in a similar fashion with you.

Time to just let it go lol.

I dont mind you different point of view, its your lack of repsonse to my questions and insistence on the same point long after I have understood it and explained my opinion on it.

You continue to say talk about stats, long after I said I personally dont value them like you do. Thats why this isnt a good discussion, because you are not receptive it seems to my view.

Immaculate_Mole wrote:Don't go Dani, one of the reasons i came back is because i agreed in the old forum to leave it a week and discuss with you whether i should leave or not.

I then got myself banned a couple of days later completely the opposite of of what i promised....

I felt like i owed you one

Anyway we know who the idiots are i think its best we ignore them for now ( BTW sports you are not one of the idiots iam referring to )

No, I am not going Mole lol

I was considering it, there was one too many racist post for my liking and I was ready to go. But that was one incident and not the norm, so I can let that go and continue on.

No, you dont ow me Mole, I only gave you my opinion and I you didnt have to follow it, I just advised you. Everyone loses it from time to time, you dont owe me.

Just to let you know, you gents are arguing with an already bias agenda and thought pattern, that includes the Arqui as well. Chances are, none of you would ever come to a compromise in this topic.

sportsczy wrote:Btw Dani, i disagree with you on a lot of things and we do rub each other the wrong way at times. But there's no denying that you love football and Barca... a passionate fan. Who can blame anyone for that? As far as my views, I'm just a quant jock. It's a big part of my profession. So i automatically tend to gravitate in that direction. And i'm very passionate as well lol; so i get overheated at times.

Thats fine, I wouldnt hold anyones passion against one aslong as they are being reasonable too.

Many people cross over the line of reasonable, thats normal.

I dont consider you someone who does that often anyhow.

sportsczy wrote:You guys are missing the point. We're looking at a snapshot in time... today. Not the past and not the future. Villa may very well suddenly go on a rampage and others may drop off.

There are four things, imo, that go into evaluating a striker: Goals, assists, efficiency and overall pitch impact. Villa has a massive stats deficit currently in terms of goals and efficiency. He's about even in assists. So does his pitch impact overcome the statistical deficit? IMO, no.

Btw, in 2002, i thought Makaay was better than R9 when you look at his entire season and impact with Deportivo. He had the best stats and the most impact. But that's just me.

Yeah, but the problem is its not correct to say the statement "Benzema is better then Villa" because we are looking at something right now at this time. "Benz is in better form" sounds more reasonable to me.

I think Villa is being punished by many people here because of those 15 games, when actually there are an anomonly rather then the norm.


I understand your 4 things to evalute, and its fair. However, because someone bested someone even in those things, doesnt make him the better player. Because those are all things which are outside the players control to a certain level, they are dependant on other factors. When that is the case, it doesnt seem right to ignore that and compare anyway because those other factors impact those things.

If you rate every play like that by doing the "math" and give a list of players in order, I doubt very much they would be the same as even your list if you did one without looking up the stats. I would personally believe your opinion without looking at the stats then your list with the stats. I think feeling is alot more important then stats. Statistically I wouldnt be surprised at all if Pedro was better then Villa, and we all know thats not true.

in 02, I dont think Makaay was better. I think he had a better season, in that he played at a level higher then expected of him while Ronaldo played at a level lower then his own expectancy perhaps. But that doesnt make Maakay the better player, at least to me.

The Franchise wrote:

sportsczy wrote:You guys are missing the point. We're looking at a snapshot in time... today. Not the past and not the future. Villa may very well suddenly go on a rampage and others may drop off.

There are four things, imo, that go into evaluating a striker: Goals, assists, efficiency and overall pitch impact. Villa has a massive stats deficit currently in terms of goals and efficiency. He's about even in assists. So does his pitch impact overcome the statistical deficit? IMO, no.

Btw, in 2002, i thought Makaay was better than R9 when you look at his entire season and impact with Deportivo. He had the best stats and the most impact. But that's just me.

Yeah, but the problem is its not correct to say the statement "Benzema is better then Villa" because we are looking at something right now at this time. "Benz is in better form" sounds more reasonable to me.

I think Villa is being punished by many people here because of those 15 games, when actually there are an anomonly rather then the norm.


I understand your 4 things to evalute, and its fair. However, because someone bested someone even in those things, doesnt make him the better player. Because those are all things which are outside the players control to a certain level, they are dependant on other factors. When that is the case, it doesnt seem right to ignore that and compare anyway because those other factors impact those things.

If you rate every play like that by doing the "math" and give a list of players in order, I doubt very much they would be the same as even your list if you did one without looking up the stats. I would personally believe your opinion without looking at the stats then your list with the stats. I think feeling is alot more important then stats. Statistically I wouldnt be surprised at all if Pedro was better then Villa, and we all know thats not true.

in 02, I dont think Makaay was better. I think he had a better season, in that he played at a level higher then expected of him while Ronaldo played at a level lower then his own expectancy perhaps. But that doesnt make Maakay the better player, at least to me.

"Good form" and "bad form" is based on a player's benchmark imo. Based on Benz's benchmark, he's in "good form". But he's 23 and getting better... so his benchmark will likely go up and today's "good form" may just become his normal performance. As far as Villa, his "bad form" is against the WC benchmark that he set for himself 2 years ago and before. He's 29. Once could easily expect his benchmark to come down.

But that's not even relevant here in terms of how i'm looking at the discussion. I'm just looking at evaluating and comparing the two players today based on performance in the immediate past. My time horizon is the start of the 2010/2011 season. If you look at how these two players have done, imo, Benz has been the better player and is on an up trend. In all competitions for Madrid and NT, he has 31 goals so far in 2011. That's just a ton. Not to mention his scope of play and pitch impact is much broader than a pure 9. He plays a 9.5 for both country and club. Villa, on the other hand, started out strong and then faded. So he's on a down trend. My view is that momentum is very important.

If you look at career, of course Villa is better by a mile. But one is 23 years old and the other 29. If Benzema continues in his current "form", i would suggest that he will surpass Villa easily. Of course, he has to maintain + avoid injuries. So you can't really compare them in terms of career... only spans of time that they overlap each other.

But we cant take guessed about that simply because Villa is 29. That was another thing I didnt agree with.

Because he played off key and was 29, he is automaticallly in decline. That doesnt make it the case.

As I said, he had a bad 15 games but before and after that he was the same Villa.

I think it happens often. When a 25 year old plays bad, he is just playing bad. If the player is near 30, its he is declining. It isnt always the case.

Is Villa declining? Maybe he is losing some physical ability, but that was never the key to his game in the first place. And the physical ability, it looks to me is more the ability to play game after game for 90 minutes, rather then speed,a gility ot quickness. Simply put I dont see any decline in Villa, I see someone who is playing a different role to his best goalscoring days. But he is more or the less the same player he was before in terms of quality.

I dont tihnk comparing Career is smart either and I havent done that.

I only spoke about last season as a whole.

Yes, I take your point, in 2011 Benz has been better. However, I think its pretty premature to say because of this, Benz has now surpassed him.

For me, Benzema needs to translate his play onto the big games. Not just goals either, his entire game. He has yet to do that for a variety of reason and meanwhile Villa continues to do it in those big games, I dont consider Benz as surpassing Villa.

He didn't score for about 4 months franchise... That's more than just some bad form. That's half the season, and the last half too. Nothing to do with age. Just productivity.

My only point about age is that you're saying benz is in good form since he's so young and doesn't have a track record that is very extensive yet. On the other hand, villa is in bad form because of his prior credentials. In essence, you're creating a baseline that's based on career, which reflects the difference in age. It's completely irrelevant to the discussion... But i wanted to point out the bias in your point of view.

the thing with villa is..

there is always a striker who is playing out of his league or has his best season, that striker then ends with more league goals or goals overall in a season then david villa.

but villa is always up there in the top 5 player with the most goals + assist, for almost a decade right now. he's been the most consistent goal-scorer of these generation. villa has consistently been one of the primera division’s top scorers fighting (and beating most of them) against the likes of messi, ronaldo, ibra, eto'o, higuain etc in a lesser team.

he is also the only big goal scorer player who has been doing this for club and country. look at his statics for the national side. his goal per game ratio is just sick and only beaten by alfredo di stefano, in the history of football.

topscorer at the euro 2008, joint topscorer at world cup 2010.

people always talk about xavi and iniesta, its just going with the train. a person with eyes and some knowledge about football nows that villa was the REAL reason the world cup was won by spain.

you cant just go and decide on the form of a couple monts that guys like rooney are a better forward than him, even while villa is playing out of position. looking carreer and skills wise, there hasn't been a better striker sinds ronaldo than this villa guy.