Who will be the Democrats' presidential candidate against Trump?

They support the person from the same party because they agree with them on most issues. Do you guys only support politicians that match up with your beliefs 100 percent? Of course not. It's not that difficult to understand.

Biden gets you 70 percent of what Bernie supporters want. While Trump gets them piss and shit. If a Bernie supporter can't see that, then they're fucking idiots.

sportsczy wrote:So Trump or Biden...  

Isn't this what you wanted? A more moderate candidate from the democrats?

Trevor: "I see people saying "Yeah Biden's not great, but he's the only one that can beat Trump... That's kind of what people said about Hillary"

Except that they didn't? Hillary was never elected because "she was the only one that could beat Trump". Hillary was coronated and ran unchallenged, allowing a fringe senator with ideas wildly out of touch with the country to gain a following as her only real opposition. Hillary also did not win because of an electability argument but rather because it was "her turn", amounted a huge resource advantage, Biden's son passed so he did not run for office, etc. Basically everyone in the party saw her as unbeatable so they didn't run, which of course was a huge mistake. But it had nothing to do with Trump or her being a centrist.

Voting with confidence will never happen in the US until ranked choice voting is implemented nationwide. In fact, it doesn't happen in most political systems.

elitedam wrote:They support the person from the same party because they agree with them on most issues. Do you guys only support politicians that match up with your beliefs 100 percent? Of course not. It's not that difficult to understand.

Biden gets you 70 percent of what Bernie supporters want. While Trump gets them piss and shit. If a Bernie supporter can't see that, then they're fucking idiots.

sportsczy wrote:So Trump or Biden...  

Isn't this what you wanted? A more moderate candidate from the democrats?

Yeah, its like have you ever agreed with anyone on 100% of issues? if you did then you're probably too agreeable for your own good.

There is no timeline where I'll ever believe Biden's the only candidate that could beat Trump. Absolutely none.

I'm going to vote for him though. Every fiber in my being feels repulsed by it, but I truly believe that any vote that isn't for Biden is an automatic vote for Trump. No vote at all is a vote for Trump. He cannot be allowed to remain in power for 4 more years. I truly don't think our democratic institutions would survive it. That is not hyperbole.

elitedam wrote:They support the person from the same party because they agree with them on most issues. Do you guys only support politicians that match up with your beliefs 100 percent? Of course not. It's not that difficult to understand.

Biden gets you 70 percent of what Bernie supporters want. While Trump gets them piss and shit. If a Bernie supporter can't see that, then they're fucking idiots.

sportsczy wrote:So Trump or Biden...  

Isn't this what you wanted? A more moderate candidate from the democrats?

Yes and no. Sanders was unelectable and Biden was the only alternative with somewhat of a chance against Trump since he is moderate (and can get voters who lean conservative but don't like Trump).

However, it's a travesty that the only choices are Trump or Biden. They both suck although in different ways.

Biden's VP choice will dictate whether he really has a chance (a very small one regardless imo). Get ready for Trump v2 because that's the likely outcome.

My more realistic scenario is that the dems keep Congress and somehow get the Senate to either become 50/50 or even 1 vote their way.

As it stands, there are 35 senate seats up. Dems need to gain 3 to get things even.

35 dem and 30 rep no elections.

Safe Rep - 12
Likely Rep - 3
Leaning Rep - 6

Safe Dem - 7
Likely Dem - 3
Leaning Dem - 1

So this would make it 46 dem and 50 rep.

You have 4 toss up states. Dems need to win all those to make it 50/50. Also, the "leaning" states can be turned around and there are more rep states like that than dem ones.

I really don't think Trump loses to Biden. So I'm paying attention to this more.

McLewis wrote:There is no timeline where I'll ever believe Biden's the only candidate that could beat Trump. Absolutely none.

I'm going to vote for him though. Every fiber in my being feels repulsed by it, but I truly believe that any vote that isn't for Biden is an automatic vote for Trump. No vote at all is a vote for Trump. He cannot be allowed to remain in power for 4 more years. I truly don't think our democratic institutions would survive it. That is not hyperbole.

Your last bits are a bit too much for me McLewis, and we're pretty much aligned most of the time.

Trump has been terrible for democracy and our institutions but when you look at what kind of power grabs have happened historically, have happened (or are happening) in other countries...Trump doesn't pose that kind of threat.

And quite frankly I don't believe that he's smart enough, skilled enough, or good enough to pull something like that off.

America has a lot of problems, but our institutions (while in many ways corrupt, helping mostly the 1% etc) are all quite strong. I can't imagine a scenario where Trump attempts a power grab, and I see virtually no chance that he would be able to succeed even if he tried it.

CBarca wrote:

FennecFox7 wrote:People are tired of establishment politicians. Stop thinking in terms of Democrats and Republicans. I don’t care what party they belong to, the American people are tired of these establishment politicians.

At the end of the day Trump is viewed as anti-establishment, whether you like it or not that is the way he’s viewed in the US. And that’s why he got elected. Again wake up.

Biden just won the Democratic Primary by a pretty hefty margin.

Your theory is wrong.

Now if you said people are more tired of establishment politicians than they used to be...sure. But the most recent voting and polling data do not reflect your argument

Let’s see who wins the election. Both are shit candidates but I’ll be voting for Biden obviously.

You know he is an awful candidate as well and I hope just as much as you do that he wins against that orange mess, but I’m just keeping a realists’ perspective. Whether you like it or not this is basically another Hillary 2.0. Both establishment, both corrupt (Biden is worse), both are not liked by the majority of the American public

The problem is with the old crowd that hasn’t died off yet. Safe to say the younger generation which is growing, is tired of establisment dems.

Biden is probably one of the most popular politicians in the US from 2000 onwards.

His time as VP was legendary. Everybody loved him. There is a reason he's called "Uncle Joe" lol. Beau dying just endeared him to the public more.

Even now literally nobody says bad things about him. The most you get is people making fun of his gaffes and a select few, mostly on the right, calling him corrupt.

CBarca wrote:

El Gunner wrote:lol Trump's gunna win again

Would you like to present an argument or just an ill informed opinion?

lol i love you CB, how you always jump on me no matter the thread, you just decided that my comment was an ill-informed opinion and i didn't even give context.

but FF touched on some of the points i would have brought up. And Biden is basically a meme more than anything else - "old and creepy funny". Does he REALLY stand for something? - he's just another old established politician in the pool of amoral democrats. Trump has more conviction, and he'll get most of his voters again this upcoming election i believe.

Perhaps Trump's handling of the virus may really hurt him. Given that Hillary's loss was a close shave, imo Biden could well edge it out.

Also, I don't know how PC culture has evolved since last election but Trump may use that card again aswell. It was surely a big driving factor in the 2016 election since people were tired of the over-protection and thats what pushed them towards him in some way too as he waged war on that movement.

CBarca wrote:Biden is probably one of the most popular politicians in the US from 2000 onwards.

His time as VP was legendary. Everybody loved him. There is a reason he's called "Uncle Joe" lol. Beau dying just endeared him to the public more.

Even now literally nobody says bad things about him. The most you get is people making fun of his gaffes and a select few, mostly on the right, calling him corrupt.

Nobody says bad things about him?

Every other democratic candidate did until he offered them something for their support.

He’s got double digit sexual misconduct allegations including assault. Don’t think those women have positive things to say.

Then there’s the Anita Hill case which should’ve been disqualifying. His involvement with the Iraq war etc.

When people don’t say as much bad stuff about him as they should though is because they don’t want to risk Trump gaining an advantage. They could’ve went at him much harder, but they wanted to stay “civil” in case he got the nomination.

Also politically I don’t think I ever hear good things about his politics. Mainly because I don’t think his supporters even know what he stands for. I’ve even asked people on here what they like about Biden’s platform and no one has answered the question yet.

Freeza wrote:

Also politically I don’t think I ever hear good things about his politics. Mainly because I don’t think his supporters even know what he stands for. I’ve even asked people on here what they like about Biden’s platform and no one has answered the question yet.

Biden Just released his plan to lower medicare eligibility to 60 years old, and to forgive student loan debt for lower and middle class americans

We have to do more to ease the economic burden on working people. So today, I'm adopting two new policies to help deliver relief. As president, I will:

- Lower Medicare eligibility to age 60
- Forgive student debt for low-income and middle class families https://t.co/wtMnhJdCaR

— Joe Biden (@JoeBiden) April 9, 2020

Incredibly low effort policies imo.

Lower to 60 years old

Even Hillary wanted to lower it to 50-55. So Biden is basically right of Hillary Clinton.

And it’s only for undergraduate degrees from what I can tell.

Guess it’s all a step forward. But it’s not enough.
___

Anyways. Just need to see what he’s willing to do about climate change. It’s the only essential problem we’re facing. And I’m not sure if he’s the guy to lead the world on the issue given his previous statements.

Freeza wrote:Incredibly low effort policies imo.

Lower to 60 years old

Even Hillary wanted to lower it to 50-55. So Biden is basically right of Hillary Clinton.

And it’s only for undergraduate degrees from what I can tell.

Guess it’s all a step forward. But it’s not enough.
___

Anyways. Just need to see what he’s willing to do about climate change. It’s the only essential problem we’re facing. And I’m not sure if he’s the guy to lead the world on the issue given his previous statements.

Its a start, and undergrad is the good way to go because thats the predatory part of schools preying on kids who dont know any better. By the time you start grad school you are in your 20's, and should know whether or not you can take on the debt you are signing up for.

Getting it down to 60 would be a step towards lowering it further in the future.

I think we have more of an essential problem in COVID19. I have not left my house in nearly a month.

But is there any indication Biden is actually willing to implement those policies when Republicans don’t want to agree with it. He’s pretty upfront about only wanting to implement policies if they’re agreeable to them.

One of his many faults since republicans are absolute inhumane fiends

Freeza wrote:But is there any indication Biden is actually willing to implement those policies when Republicans don’t want to agree with it. He’s pretty upfront about only wanting to implement policies if they’re agreeable to them.

One of his many faults since republicans are absolute inhumane fiends

This is a republican country with liberal cities. Either way we would need their agreement on anything substantial.

If he cant get anything done then nothing will be done. Unless we go Sherman and began a purge or sorts then Biden's moderation is the best we have to get people to agree with his changes.

Trump is an obstacle but how about striving for a consensus rather than both sides throwing pejoratives at each other. Both perspectives are needed so there should be a movement to come closer rather than grow apart.

With Biden, there should be more room for dicussion.

Calling republicans "inhumane fiends" is helping nobody. Because republicans won't go away and you will have to deal with them either way.

Myesyats wrote:Trump is an obstacle but how about striving for a consensus rather than both sides throwing pejoratives at each other. Both perspectives are needed so there should be a movement to come closer rather than grow apart.

With Biden, there should be more room for dicussion.

Calling republicans "inhumane fiends" is helping nobody. Because republicans won't go away and you will have to deal with them either way.

Calling republicans (the politicians) inhumane fiends is pretty mild tbh. They’re so much worse than that.

Every and each of them has civilian blood on their hands.

Let’s take one Jim Jordan:
https://www.huffpost.com/entry/jim-jordan-sex-abuse-ohio-state-university_n_5e48c4b4c5b64ba297508a4b

So many republicans are like that and it’s impossible to find one that doesn’t have a disgraceful record.

Why should any democrats work to appease republicans. Do you think they’d ever do the same? No. And that’s why they keep winning.

Obama was such a wuss. He could’ve easily gotten a SC judge put through, but he played “civil” because Mitch McConnell obstructed it. There wasn’t anything wrong with the judge, but Republicans were never going to approve Obama’s nominee.

Democrats playing nice have always been their downfall.

Look up what the Overton Window is. Should explain to you how you can’t play along with your political opponents discourse. Because when they’re so far to the right and you’re starting from a centrist point of view, you’re going to end up right where they want to.

And it's not like a lot of liberals aren't far to the left either? Republicans who are leaning too far towards the right is a problem but liberals who are starting to lean too far towards the left isnt? Where do you draw the line if ever? Obama has warned the people about this too.

Both extremes are murderous but we dont know where to draw the line on the left. In principle, on the right you say "stop" when racial superiority comes into play. Where on the left?

Far left in the US = we should actually keep this poor man alive

Far right in the US = why don’t we spend more than $10t on killing brown people because we’re bored while crippling our own people with debts and untreated injuries and diseases.

Yeah, they’re definitely the same.

Seriously. Stop playing devil’s advocate on stuff like this.

If you really think someone far left (Bernie Sanders) is just as murderous as a far right (Dick Cheney) then you’re the biggest idiot in the world. And I know you aren’t that.

I'm just trying to see things from both perspectives. Trump has clearly allowed Republicans too shift way too far to the right, not denying that at all.

When I first joined this forum I was definitely a conservative. Now I consider myself a centrist leaning more to the left than to the right and I attribute my shift in thinking mostly to the conversations and interactions I had on GL.

As to the murderous comment: I can't say whether someone on the far-left is murderous because I don't know where to draw the line. That's the problem. Because on surface level, far-left ideas aren't murderous. That's where far-right and far-left differ.

Because we know both far-left and far-right is murderous. But on the right you can clearly pin-point the moment when it starts to become exactly that, and on the left you just don't know where you step over the line.

Bernie probably isn't too far left. But some day he might be? Will we know when that happens?

That's a straw man right there.

The biggest culprit and reason we have such a mess in the middle east in recent history is Jimmy Carter... he's the reason that this regime sits in Iran today.  He's the reason that Saddam Hussein was put in power over Al-Bakr.

Obama called for people to fight for freedom in North Africa that led to the Arab Spring...  with the fall of governments in Egypt, Tunisia, Libya, Syria, etc.  Other than Tunisia, who fought the repression that the new Islamic government wanted to implement, were able to thrive.  Libya and Syria are bloodbaths.  Egypt has become even more repressive as a counter-revolution occurred.

Noble intentions are nice and all... but if you have literally no idea about the consequences of naive and ill-conceived ideas can have, they can be very dangerous as history has shown.

Both sides have plenty of blood on their hands.

That's also another point and absolutely agreed Sports. Good intentions dont always result in good outcomes. There's a clear distinction there.

If you won't listen to Obama, who will you listen to?

Former President Barack Obama warned Democratic primary candidates to avoid moving too far left in their policy proposals.

https://www.cnbc.com/2019/11/16/obama-warns-democrats-against-going-too-far-left.html