Mikel Arteta Sack Watch

yeah maybe I'm not going to call him negrito after all

think that's something that I'm not going to do, doesn't seem like that great an idea 2 hours later

Hapless_Hans wrote:yeah maybe I'm not going to call him negrito after all

think that's something that I'm not going to do, doesn't seem like that great an idea 2 hours later

I’ll still need that £100k, though. I’ve made my decision.  I’ve also told the media that you’re a racist. Happy new year

I dont think it is too early to say Arteta got Arsenal back on track. I was always asking to have some faith in the man. He has started to deliver already. Going out of FA Cup was blessing in disguise imo.

I don't understand what's going on. Do`the people at Arsenal understand that they will actually need to sack Arteta as he will not go away on his own?

Depends on EL

Sack him why?

The Franchise wrote:Sack him why?

Because he's very clearly not up to the job and should never have been hired in the first place

Based on what?

They play far better than anything under Emery or the end of Wenger.

Obviously league positions isnt accepted but lets see the final table before that judgement.

Problem is the quality of the players far more than Arteta is, or isnt doing.

if he doesn't beat Olympiakos this time around he should get the boot

The players are fine. The squad has massively been invested into, too.
As opposed to Arteta, the players are all actually professionals who have a career full of performances to show for it.
The final table won't show anything else than what it's showing today - that Arsenal are on their way to become a midtable club.

I just don't get it.

i'll say it's a bit of both, when you still have Xhaka in this day and age as a main piece in your midfield, the team can never be good enough. Arteta has shown promise here and there but i don't think he is qualified and experienced enough to take us back into the top 4. We needed Rafa Benitez/Ancelotti for that, Arteta could have taken the Everton job for experience.

we need CL for better investment into the team, but we'll see though... i think the board and majority of the fanbase will give him one more season after this.

No, the players are absolutely not fine. You wont be in the top 4 when Pool, City, Chelsea, Utd alone have vastly better squads. now you have teams like Leicester City who have at least 6 players who walk into Arsenal's 11.

Investment has nothing to do with the quality of players. Name these players and you find the majority arent anywhere near the right level. Pepe, Wilian, Laca, Saliba, Torriera...big money, dud transfers which the good deals dont nearly make up for.

The only acceptable argument I've heard is Carlo instead of Arteta. That made sense to me because of how high level Carlo is.

But putting that aside, watching Arsenal play, i dont understand the complaints at all. What do you expect from them?

Why are you talking about top 4?
They are 10th.

It's excuses, excuses, excuses, and then you fail to see the forest for all the excuses.

Wenger would have this team in contention for top 4 without a doubt.

The only reason he isn't being sacked is because the club is stingy, it's cheaper to "trust the process" rather than sack a manager when he has two more years in his contract (really...)

I doubt they think he is great, they don't want to waste more money and hope that he can somehow turn good in time. Terrible club.

And, oh, only Ancelotti is above Arteta now?

Where does this high regard and standing come from?
I tell you which managers are above Arteta:
Every one who has ever done a good job, anywhere. So tens of thousands, I'd say.

It's bizarre how much goodwill some people are willing to advance to some random guy just because he stumbled into being Pep's assinstant for season or two.
The guy has nothing to show for, and what he's achieving at Arsenal is awful.

Oh wait, but he's from La Masia too.

We should've hired Tuchel when we had the chance

As for now, there's still plenty of options. There are about 10 better managers in the PL alone, then there are other leagues who have better managers as well.

We have shit players but I have no doubt a better manager will make better use of the squad.

Every time we play with two of Partey/Xhaka/Elneny our attack is effectively the 4 attackers + Tierney since the CMs refuse to make any sort of forward run.

Chambers defended well but we had a black hole in attack on the right side.

Lacazette has turned from a striker to a link-up player when we need goals.

Makes subs far too late when its clear its not working.

Tuchel comes into Chelsea, looks at the squad, sees the quality but also the limitations at the same time, and adjusts the team formation and tactics to suit.

Arsenal looks at the team and says we need better players despite the heavy investment and high wage bill.

There is no way Burnley should be looking better in attack then us.

Everton, Leeds, Aston Villa and West Ham don't have better squads than Arsenal. Yet they are/have been above Arsenal for the majority of the season. I also don't know who the 6 Leicester players are who would 'walk' into the Arsenal team.

Arteta is not necessarily a very bad coach, but he certainly isn't very good either. Give him a team like Southampton and he would be at the bottom of the league guaranteed.

Hapless_Hans wrote:Why are you talking about top 4?
They are 10th.

It's excuses, excuses, excuses, and then you fail to see the forest for all the excuses.

Wenger would have this team in contention for top 4 without a doubt.

Is this season finished? They are a few points out of 6th, which given their squad makes sense to me.

Why not wait till the end to judge.

What excuses? Not an Arsenal fan and could care less what they or Arteta do?

Hapless_Hans wrote:And, oh, only Ancelotti is above Arteta now?

Where does this high regard and standing come from?
I tell you which managers are above Arteta:
Every one who has ever done a good job, anywhere. So tens of thousands, I'd say.

It's bizarre how much goodwill some people are willing to advance to some random guy just because he stumbled into being Pep's assinstant for season or two.
The guy has nothing to show for, and what he's achieving at Arsenal is awful.

Oh wait, but he's from La Masia too.

La Masia? Are you serious? That has nothing to do with it. He was there 4 seasons, he had a club before us, he never played any games for us and was very average his entire youth career. He has never been relevant from a Barca point of view. Your claim makes absolutely no sense.

Anyway, no I didnt claim Carlo was the only better coach

I claimed of all the options Arsenal had available, Carlo was the only obviously better one.

Who else were they linked to?

Unfortantely, you are results oriented but cant see to grasp what actually happens on the pitch. Which is unfortante for this discussion. At what point will you criticise Arteta's work on the pitch? So far, I havent seen any.

danyjr wrote:Everton, Leeds, Aston Villa and West Ham don't have better squads than Arsenal. Yet they are/have been above Arsenal for the majority of the season. I also don't know who the 6 Leicester players are who would 'walk' into the Arsenal team.

Arteta is not necessarily a very bad coach, but he certainly isn't very good either. Give him a team like Southampton and he would be at the bottom of the league guaranteed.

Again, lets wait and see till the end of the season. There is not many points seperating these positions.If Arsenal jump up to 6th, I will not be here saying how great he has done. So why should we say he should be sacked down in 10th still games to play. Makes no sense.

Yes, 6 player absolutely do.

Fofana, Justin, Soyuncu, Tielemans, Maddison and Vardy are far better than Luiz, Bellerin, Mari, Xhaka, Odegaard and Lacazette. I dont see how you can think otherwise.

Even Harvey Barnes is a more complete and productive player than Pepe or Wiilian.

urbaNRoots wrote:We should've hired Tuchel when we had the chance

As for now, there's still plenty of options. There are about 10 better managers in the PL alone, then there are other leagues who have better managers as well.

You think Tuchel would come to Arsenal? I absolutely do not.

Who are the better options you could have got at the time of hiring Arteta. That is the point.

The only one obviously better and available was Carlo.

The Franchise wrote:
You think Tuchel would come to Arsenal? I absolutely do not.

Who are the better options you could have got at the time of hiring Arteta. That is the point.

The only one obviously better and available was Carlo.

The Franchise wrote:
I claimed of all the options Arsenal had available, Carlo was the only obviously better one.

Who else were they linked to?

Unfortantely, you are results oriented but cant see to grasp what actually happens on the pitch. Which is unfortante for this discussion. At what point will you criticise Arteta's work on the pitch? So far, I havent seen any.

I misunderstood that you were refering to 'at the time'. Fair enough.
Very debatable that hiring a manager with no experience whatsoever, i.e. a manager that isn't actually a manager yet, would be the second best option they had, but ok, they gave it a shot.

As for the second point, sorry but I've watched plenty of Arsenal games, from the time Arteta took over until now, to form an opinion that's not merely 'result-based'; even if, as an aside, what else matters in the long run? And Arteta's run isn't that short anymore.
The football has been horrible, they failed to create anything over months and months, no intensitiy, no creativity, no urgency, bad both on the eye and on the table, failing to get good players to perform. I've seen them comprehensively outperformed by teams like Aston Villa (pretty good team tbf). They are not 10th by mistake.

But hey! I'm going to dare the claim (meaningless since it's a unprovable internet argument, but you started..) that I've seen more of what happened on the pitch under Arteta and you've seen more of what happens at Opta in the last 3 weeks.

Dani is on one hey we're never finishing 6th this season. The only reason you feel those Leicester players will get into our side is because they have been impressive in a regime and system at Leicester that works for them. Bring those guys to Arsenal under our current regime, they'll be potty as fuck

Appraising Arteta is tricky because it's been a season of two halves.

Pre-Christmas:
Games: 14
Wins: 3
Draws: 2
Losses: 9

Post-Christmas:
Games: 13
Wins: 7
Draws: 3
Losses: 3

We can't disregard the first half just because things have got better, but at the same time, the improvement is incredibly stark. Whether it's using stats or our own eyes, the Arsenal team since Christmas is a much better team than the one before Christmas. Arteta made lot of mistakes, but he's corrected a lot of those mistakes.

So it's now a question of which period of form best represents Arteta's Arsenal team. The first run was freakish, but at the same time the team was genuinely terrible and a lot of problems came from a poorly executed 3-4-3. The absence of creative players in the half and central spaces starved the likes of Auba of any chances so scoring goals became very difficult. Tierney, a valuable player for Arsenal's attack, was playing as a left-sided centre back (albeit one with freedom to charge up the flank when Arsenal were in possession, but the added defensive responsibility of being a centre back hindered his attacking game). Auba was on the left playing as a winger, not as an inside forward, making decoy runs for Saka to cross to nobody. The whole thing was very rigid and stifling.

Post-Christmas, the formation changed to a 4-2-3-1 and the attack immediately improved. Arsenal scored 23 goals in 13 games whereas before they only scored 12 in 14. Arsenal now have much better spatial coverage across the pitch thanks to the extra midfielders and are more flexible in their build-up structure. Believe it or not, they move the ball quicker out of defence now than they were when playing the 3-4-3. That's one of the big reasons why they're a more potent attacking force at the moment. What's holding Arsenal back at the moment is poor concentration throughout the team, which is giving teams easy goals, and a lack of positional rotation in attack. Currently, Arteta uses the lateral movement of Smith Rowe or Odegaard to create an overload on one flank but they're a bit too slow in getting it to the opposite flank. Moreover, Auba's movement typically doesn't create space for midfield runners, which is a limitation.

This is where we get to the players because as I see it, Arsenal are held back by their personnel. This is rudimentary level stuff, but Arsenal's most creative players, in terms of key passes, dribbles and crosses per 90, are: Saka, Willian, Tierney, and Smith Rowe. Hardly a stellar list of names (granted, two are kids and another is still in his early 20s, so there's room for improvement). Saka is the best of the bunch but even he ranks well below the PL's best (for example, Ademola Lookman of Fulham beats him in several key metrics). Arsenal are relying on a good 19-year-old, just like in the old days... except Saka is no where the level of Cesc Fabregas or even Aaron Ramsey.

Who else have they got? Pepe is a creative black-hole. 0.3 key passes per game, only 0.9 dribbles per game despite being a dribbler, 0.2 crosses per game despite playing on the flank. Numbers like that are not indicative of mismanagement or misuse, but rather clear weaknesses in his game. Lacazette is a similar story. These guys profile as forwards and even then, their shooting metrics aren't great.

Then we go deeper down the pitch. Ceballos is actually their best CM this season, both defensively and offensively. He makes more interceptions per 90 than Partey does, which surprises me, on top of being a riskier passer. Partey can dribble but his passing is not creative. Xhaka makes a lot of tackles, commits a lot of fouls, makes few interceptions, doesn't dribble and doesn't create a lot... which should tell you a lot about him as a player.

Right back is plain mediocre. Both Cedric and Bellerin are meh.

All of this is to say: Arsenal do need a quality injection in several positions, and their current position is a result of that and the mistakes Arteta in the first half of the season. Whether you sack him entirely depends on how much stock you put into their current run of form.

Let's just say with Henry being out of job atm, Let's hope Arteta doesn't get sacked