Brexit: Should the UK stay or go?

Well how about you make me whatever you want while I have your wife, would that make you feel better about democracy?

Art Morte wrote:

Unique wrote:

Art Morte wrote:

VivaStPauli wrote:

I actually agree with this. Sure, it was dumb to believe them, but the Leavers did tell everyone and their mums that Britain would be able to leave the EU, but keep all of it's benefits, which is obviously a lie, and impossible.

In a democracy it's ultimately the people's responsibility to know what they're voting for.

but democracy means you get to vote for this guy or that guy. not the guy you want. america had to pick trump or clinton. they picked trump they saw him as the best bet out of 2 people that had a chance of winning. sometimes it looks like you are the one that choses your government when in reality your government has been chosen for you. you dont get to say i want this guy to run the country they tell you to pick witch one of these do you want to be your government. its not the same thing. well not in the USA and britain anyway.

Even though I think both the US and the UK could really do with more political parties, in your example both Trump and Clinton were voted into the final race in primaries. I agree, Trump vs Clinton was a very polarising election, but they were chosen from several previous options.

First past the vote voting always leads to 2 options, leading people to choose between 2 bad choices rather than their true preference. This can be avoided with ranked or proportional voting.

It's called Duverger's Law

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Duverger%27s_law

Art Morte wrote:Well how about you make me whatever you want while I have your wife, would that make you feel better about democracy?

democracy is a fugazi now mate.

Seems like May will really take this to the wire. Hopefully it doesn't end in no deal.

It will.

europe is nothing more than a bad ex wife. we married them and gave them everything and now we want to leave they are trying to take us for everything we've got. its amazing how quickly they forget what britain has done for them over many years.

Unique wrote:europe is nothing more than a bad ex wife. we married them and gave them everything and now we want to leave they are trying to take us for everything we've got. its amazing how quickly they forget what britain has done for them over many years.

What exactly is the EU trying to take from the UK? The so called divorce bill - the 39bn payment or so - is paying towards EU stuff that the UK will still be enjoying during the transition period. (Hence the talk today that if the transition period is extended, then the bill is going to grow, too). It's basically just your typical membership payment - the infamous £350m a week - that the UK has always been paying while enjoying the various EU programs and things.

Apart from that the EU's message has pretty much been "let's do the kind of deal you want to do, as long as it doesn't undermine the EU rules, the customs union or the single market." (Yet it's the UK government that is still having a hard time even deciding exactly what kind of a deal they want to pursue).


Anyway, I don't think we will end up with a no-deal scenario, it's just so much against common sense. But there might either be a harder-than-current border in Ireland or the UK agreeing to Northern Ireland remaining in the customs union for the time being. I can't see how you keep the border as it is with NI withdrawing from the CU.

Is the EU willing to accept a border in Ireland? Wouldn't that be selling out the Republic?

If we accept that they won't, then the only options are a sea border, a no deal scenario or a soft Brexit. May wants a hard Brexit, but the only way that works is with a border that undermines the good Friday agreement. So I don't really know what the way out is.

May wants a soft Brexit, that's what her Chequers plan is and that's why the likes of Johnson and Davis resigned from her cabinet, they want a harder Brexit.

The EU does not want a border in Ireland, but if the UK doesn't agree to the "backstop" (NI remaining in customs union) and no other soft deal is reached, then there has to be a border. At first the talk on the UK's side was mostly about a "technological solution" to the border question, but I haven't heard anything about that for a while. And the problem is that there does not appear to be any middle-ground solution on the table right now, where NI would leave the customs union and maintain the border more or less as it is.

Just change the law for free movement of people so we can stop the mass emigration of unsavoury people and everyone can just go back to business as usual.

Art Morte wrote:May wants a soft Brexit, that's what her Chequers plan is and that's why the likes of Johnson and Davis resigned from her cabinet, they want a harder Brexit.

The EU does not want a border in Ireland, but if the UK doesn't agree to the "backstop" (NI remaining in customs union) and no other soft deal is reached, then there has to be a border. At first the talk on the UK's side was mostly about a "technological solution" to the border question, but I haven't heard anything about that for a while. And the problem is that there does not appear to be any middle-ground solution on the table right now, where NI would leave the customs union and maintain the border more or less as it is.

What May wants is irrelevant though. She isn't going to get it. Her cabinet is full of snakes and rebels who will oppose anything she suggests. Half of them wants her job while the other half don't want brexit at all. Few wants a hard brexit. May herself doesn't want any sort of brexit judging by her attitude towards this but she will try for a soft one since it has the most chances of her extended as the PM.

We are few months away from Brexit and we still don't have a concrete idea as to what Britain really wants.

Just make some deal agreement however shitty it is, have the people vote again, to 'ratify' it, while not ceasing to point out how shitty it is, and hope they don't say yes again.

Then pretend like the first vote never happened and call the Brexit off.

Hapless_Hans wrote:Just make some deal agreement however shitty it is, have the people vote again, to 'ratify' it, while not ceasing to point out how shitty it is, and hope they don't say yes again.

Then pretend like the first vote never happened and call the Brexit off.

and then we can welcome more people like this in the country.

RealGunner wrote:

Art Morte wrote:May wants a soft Brexit, that's what her Chequers plan is and that's why the likes of Johnson and Davis resigned from her cabinet, they want a harder Brexit.

The EU does not want a border in Ireland, but if the UK doesn't agree to the "backstop" (NI remaining in customs union) and no other soft deal is reached, then there has to be a border. At first the talk on the UK's side was mostly about a "technological solution" to the border question, but I haven't heard anything about that for a while. And the problem is that there does not appear to be any middle-ground solution on the table right now, where NI would leave the customs union and maintain the border more or less as it is.

What May wants is irrelevant though. She isn't going to get it. Her cabinet is full of snakes and rebels who will oppose anything she suggests. Half of them wants her job while the other half don't want brexit at all. Few wants a hard brexit. May herself doesn't want any sort of brexit judging by her attitude towards this but she will try for a soft one since it has the most chances of her extended as the PM.

We are few months away from Brexit and we still don't have a concrete idea as to what Britain really wants.

According to Bloomberg, May is now willing to make the backstop - NI or the whole UK staying in customs union - unlimited in duration, until something else is agreed to resolve the Irish border issue.

It's definitely going to be interesting to see what happens in UK politics in the next few months. A lot of talk of May not lasting... but very little talk of credible alternatives to her Brexit plan that would receive more backing than her plan.

One thing is for sure, if NI or the UK as a whole even seemingly are set to remain in the customs union for who knows how long, it's going to anger a lot of Brexiteers.

Unique wrote:
and then we can welcome more people like this in the country.

The last time I checked Asians were not included in the EU's freedom of movement. But then again, facts have been bendable ever since the Leave campaign launched.

Art Morte wrote:

RealGunner wrote:

Art Morte wrote:May wants a soft Brexit, that's what her Chequers plan is and that's why the likes of Johnson and Davis resigned from her cabinet, they want a harder Brexit.

The EU does not want a border in Ireland, but if the UK doesn't agree to the "backstop" (NI remaining in customs union) and no other soft deal is reached, then there has to be a border. At first the talk on the UK's side was mostly about a "technological solution" to the border question, but I haven't heard anything about that for a while. And the problem is that there does not appear to be any middle-ground solution on the table right now, where NI would leave the customs union and maintain the border more or less as it is.

What May wants is irrelevant though. She isn't going to get it. Her cabinet is full of snakes and rebels who will oppose anything she suggests. Half of them wants her job while the other half don't want brexit at all. Few wants a hard brexit. May herself doesn't want any sort of brexit judging by her attitude towards this but she will try for a soft one since it has the most chances of her extended as the PM.

We are few months away from Brexit and we still don't have a concrete idea as to what Britain really wants.

According to Bloomberg, May is now willing to make the backstop - NI or the whole UK staying in customs union - unlimited in duration, until something else is agreed to resolve the Irish border issue.

It's definitely going to be interesting to see what happens in UK politics in the next few months. A lot of talk of May not lasting... but very little talk of credible alternatives to her Brexit plan that would receive more backing than her plan.

One thing is for sure, if NI or the UK as a whole even seemingly are set to remain in the customs union for who knows how long, it's going to anger a lot of Brexiteers.

Unique wrote:
and then we can welcome more people like this in the country.

The last time I checked Asians were not included in the EU's freedom of movement. But then again, facts have been bendable ever since the Leave campaign launched.

Germany and Sweden will let anybody in and as soon as they get to Europe they can go to any EU country.

Yeeeeeah, that's not how it works, but facts, bending, so on.

And anyway, all those men seem to be British nationals, most of them in their 30s, meaning that their parents have most likely moved into the UK well before the EU's freedom of movement even existed.

And I'm someone who doesn't even believe that large scale mixing of people from different cultures and backgrounds leads to good things, but blaming the EU for having Asians in your country doesn't make sense.

Hapless_Hans wrote:Just make some deal agreement however shitty it is, have the people vote again, to 'ratify' it, while not ceasing to point out how shitty it is, and hope they don't say yes again.

Then pretend like the first vote never happened and call the Brexit off.

Inb4 the BBC gives each side equal screen time giving the impression that they are neutral and both sides have as good an argument without actually informing the public (as is their role).

Unique wrote:Just change the law for free movement of people so we can stop the mass emigration of unsavoury people and everyone can just go back to business as usual.

This is the truth of the matter, Brexit was always about immigration. But I think you'll find that the only immigration you'll be able to curb after Brexit is European one, not the kind Brexit voters are actually concerned about.

BarrileteCosmico wrote:

Unique wrote:Just change the law for free movement of people so we can stop the mass emigration of unsavoury people and everyone can just go back to business as usual.

This is the truth of the matter, Brexit was always about immigration. But I think you'll find that the only immigration you'll be able to curb after Brexit is European one, not the kind Brexit voters are actually concerned about.

It all began in 2008. Maybe it was building up even before that but that was the year when it started the domino effect. Years and years of austerity since then plunged Britain into a country with disgruntled middle class and the minimum wage workers who were just looking for reasons to blame someone quickly accepted the idea that their state of poverty and unprivileged lifestyle was because of mass immigration. Housing crisis, NHS crisis, school places crisis, it is all too easy to blame it on immigration rather than blaming the governments (mainly tories) who did nothing to their friends at the highest levels of various establishments who robbed the country and are continuing doing so.

Things are so bad that people have just started to accept all the positive spin they throw at them. Low unemployment for example is the biggest myth out there when graduates are being forced to work as toilet cleaners and many on zero hour contracts.

Brexit was campaigned on lies and deceit.

Art Morte wrote:Yeeeeeah, that's not how it works, but facts, bending, so on.

And anyway, all those men seem to be British nationals, most of them in their 30s, meaning that their parents have most likely moved into the UK well before the EU's freedom of movement even existed.

And I'm someone who doesn't even believe that large scale mixing of people from different cultures and backgrounds leads to good things, but blaming the EU for having Asians in your country doesn't make sense.

I’m not blaming the eu for Asians coming here I’m just saying people are seeing how Muslims are fooking up large parts of France Germany and Sweden then they look at the Muslim rape gangs in England then they see millions of Muslims coming into Europe from backward war torn countries and they are thinking no way do we want this in Britain and that’s why they voted leave. For god knows how many years Britain has taken in immigrants for all races and religions and people never said a word then we saw big numbers of Muslims and the trouble that comes with them and then people started to panic and vote for brexit. As sad as that is it’s the truth tbh.

Completely unfair to single out "Muslims". Muslims have been going to England and Europe for decades and none of that happened, nor was it a problem.

BarrileteCosmico wrote:Completely unfair to single out "Muslims". Muslims have been going to England and Europe for decades and none of that happened, nor was it a problem.

of all the immagrants we have had from all races and religions it’s only Muslims we have had problems with. There are no sikhs and hindu rape gangs in England. There are no Jewish hate preachers in England. There are no Chinese no go zones in England. There are no Jamaican terrorist threats in England. The reason I singled them out is because that’s where these problems come from. If the Chinese immigrants start forming child rape gangs and committing terrorist attacks in England then I will call them out as well. But in the history of Chinese immigrants coming to England there has been not one single report of rape gangs or terrorist attacks from them.

People look at the terrorist attacks around the world they look at the rapes and sex attacks from Muslims that have come to Europe they look at stupid laws and traditions Muslims live by and tbh most people don’t want that anywhere near them.

Unique you have valid concerns and points about things that are going wrong or cause problems, no doubts. While it may not be 100% correct to say "Muslims", we get your point. The problem is, like it was said above, that by achieving Brexit you won't fix any of this.

If we assume that your thoughts on immigration are correct, then we can follow the thread. The immigration that will automatically be lowered is not the one you say to have a problem with. It will be that from EU nationals. Those are the ones that enjoy freedom of movement. So it will be (pending on the deal) more difficult for Polish, Italian or Spanish workers to go to the UK. The rest, for the most part, has always been about the UK's own policy.

If asian and African migrants go to the UK it is because of the UK's policies. The EU for this is just a scapegoat.

rincon wrote:Unique you have valid concerns and points about things that are going wrong or cause problems, no doubts. While it may not be 100% correct to say "Muslims", we get your point. The problem is, like it was said above, that by achieving Brexit you won't fix any of this.

If we assume that your thoughts on immigration are correct, then we can follow the thread. The immigration that will automatically be lowered is not the one you say to have a problem with. It will be that from EU nationals. Those are the ones that enjoy freedom of movement. So it will be (pending on the deal) more difficult for Polish, Italian or Spanish workers to go to the UK. The rest, for the most part, has always been about the UK's own policy.

If asian and African migrants go to the UK it is because of the UK's policies. The EU for this is just a scapegoat.

I’m just pointing out why people panicked and voted out. They saw the way things were going in France Sweden and Germany and thought we are part of the EU we will be flooded with them people next and have to put up with the same shit. They thought by getting out of the EU we can turn them people away. Most people don’t study politics that much and only see what’s right infront of them. And as soon as news got out about the way things were going in France Sweden and Germany the thought of taking back our borders from Brussels looked good to most people at the time. Merkel is as much to blame as anyone. She just opened the doors and let them all in then lied and covered up the crimes. Then the police forces in many European countries were told to cover up the crimes so people thought the best thing to do is try to stop the flow of people coming in. And as I said they saw brexit as a step towards that.

Britain voted for Brexit because of fear of immigration. I don't think mass scale population have the ability to think in terms of economics and other problems associated with Brexit.