Re: Pep Fraudiola Denunciation Thread

[BarrileteCosmico]

Who are the people defending him, exactly?

Also who is saying that having clutch players doesn't matter?

GL going after all sorts of red herrings in this thread, there is wide consensus that Pep screwed up big

[Casciavit]

I actually meant killers in that last line.

But you stay ignorant. I'm sure if his name was Peppiso Guardiolini and he started his career off at Udinese you'd be siding with me.

Madrid and Barca dominate the CL because of Ronaldo and Messi finishing chances when it comes to them, but apparently having killers don't matter despite this game proving the exact opposite!

Pls go.

[Casciavit]

Who are the people defending him, exactly?

Also who is saying that having clutch players doesn't matter?

GL going after all sorts of red herrings in this thread, there is wide consensus that Pep screwed up big

No one is defending his tactics against Lyon.

What I was saying is that if City is going to win under him they need a killer in front of the goal to finish their chances. They miss sitters in every CL tie.

How this is a debatable point is beyond me.

[rincon]

Who are the people defending him, exactly?

The people arguing that City needs match winners to not lose to Lyon because individual quality is what matters in the CL  nevermind how much more individual quality City has over Lyon. Casviavit, and I guess Xavi?

City doesnt need galacticos, or match winners, or more signings to beat Lyon. They need Pep to stop screwing up every season. He is the coach most supported in the transfer market in world football, to say after a loss to Lyon that he needs to be supported more for signings is laughable.

[Casciavit]

Read what you want to read.

Also, Xavi is one of the smartest minds in football and was one of the greatest CM's ever. Of course, the plebs on here would think they know more about what City needs to get to the next level than him. Laughable.

The solution for City is that Pep has to get his tactics spot on and they need a finisher. However, at least if they have a finisher it could overcome Pep's tinkering, is the point I was making.

They miss sitters in the PL regularly. Their XG is way below their goals scored last I checked. Of course, it's going to have a bigger effect in 2 matches than in 38 matches. They should've signed one in 2018, but now more than ever they need it.

I said it when Pep had his tactics spot on against Madrid that they wouldn't win the CL because Sterling/Jesus/Mahrez miss way too many of their chances.

Lyon lost the tie today because they missed their chances, while Gnabry scored something out of nothing.

But GL only looks at transfer fees and not the actual players they're buying and automatically assume that kid who costs 70M will have the same impact as a proven star.

Nobody is saying Sterling is a bad player. He's a great player. The problem is that when push comes to shove he has never been someone you can rely on in the biggest moments. He just doesn't have it in him. City needs someone who does to take them to that next level. It's about finding solutions to their problems.

[danyjr]

Xavi is not one of the smartest minds in football He is a stubborn guy who thinks he knows everything (similar to you). Wait until he gets tested, he either sticks to his philosophy and keeps losing or he will throw it all in the bin to survive. And from what I can tell you, he is so stubborn he will keep to his guns and become a meme. Maybe you meant Xabi Alonso, cause I can see him becoming a far better coach.

What rincon is trying to say is that Lyon don't have better finishers than City, then how come they ended up beating the blues? It is not just about finishers. City have one of the best finishers in the world in Agüero yet they still flopped every season with him.

It is all on the coach.

[Casciavit]

He absolutely is. His problem is he has a very rigid viewpoint, but when it comes to speaking from his views very few come across as knowledgable as he does. There's a reason everyone who has played with him calls him a future coach. Although it wouldn't surprise me if he fails simply because he's an extremist. You have to be adaptable to some degree.

I've never said it was only about finishers. I said the issue stems from Pep's very system. I already explained it.

You build a system on certainty, the CL matches are all about uncertainty. City are uncomfortable in chaotic games, hence it becomes end-to-end. When matches turn into that both sides are going to create chances. The key is to score from yours.

When City have been in the same context all these years missing sitter after sitter how can you sit here and tell me finishing doesn't matter for them?

I said it was Pep's fault that it leads them to the situations, hence why I said they should sign a star player who can finish to compensate for his weakness. Yes Pep should fix his issues, but even then the finishing problem won't magically appear even if he does have a 10/10 game plan. The match against Madrid proved that. Are you going to sit there and act like they weren't playing well tactically, but couldn't finish at all?

Again, I don't understand the debate. People are so in tune with their agendas on here, that they are refusing to actually ask themselves why things happen the way they do. I'm bringing up solutions to their own problems. It's easier to sign a star striker than it is to ask a coach to change himself when he's been with the same team for 4 years. It's the logical decision.

[Winter is Coming]

Because Aguero is a flop in Europe nothing to do with the coaches. He's had 1.5 billion dollars worth of teammates and hasn't achieved anything.

[Casciavit]

Regarding the qualitative advantage stuff, I was referring to the difference between them having a qualitative advantage in the league compared to the knockout rounds. The mentality of how they approach the game becomes completely different. Yes, you're right City have better teams on paper than those teams, but due to the nature of knockout rounds and Pep's own nature when it comes to dealing with them, City ends up being left in a precarious position.

My viewpoint is that it seems like Pep doesn't think he has a big enough qualitative advantage in Europe to win his own way, so he has to resort to tinkering with his tactics because he lacks faith in his players. This ultimately has a knock-on effect until the final whistle.

Now the obvious thing you will reply with is well "Cas his City side is superior on paper to the teams he faced" maybe you're right, and I'm not going to disagree with you on that. What I'm talking about is what he might be thinking. I'm giving potential reasons for his decisions on that, as in I'm trying to make sense of why he's doing what he's doing. I'm not saying I necessarily agree with him which some idiots on this forum can't read.

Essentially, the conclusion I have come to is that if Pep doesn't change, the only way for City to compensate for his weaknesses in the CL is to buy actual experienced stars rather than FM prospects. Those are the players who will bury their chance when it turns into a chaotic game. That's City's biggest issue. Pep's very system is about certainty and not leaving things to chance, his tinkering leads to chaotic games which is City's biggest weakness. To win the chaotic games it comes down to finishing. If your players can't do the job, you have to find somebody who can.

Here's a thought experiment:
Let's say Pep plays his regular lineup and doesn't screw with his tactics, and City still miss sitters. What is the solution? Is Pep on the pitch to finish them? I genuinely want to know.

[danyjr]

You talked about tactics and where Pep failed, which most of this forum agrees, but setting your team's mentality for knock-out matches is not talked about here often. This is an important area where Pep fails. We can blame Pep's failures on bad luck once or twice, not 7 seasons in a row.

[Casciavit]

The tactics and the mentality are connected to one another, I believe I've talked about it in the posts above. Him adapting to the opposition in a negative manner has a knock-on effect in terms of mentality and performance on the pitch. Everything's connected!

He doesn't have faith in his players -> sets weird lineup for players to compensate -> shouts at them to control and play risk-averse -> players end up playing out of position and make individual mistakes because of the pressure -> they end up chasing the game -> end up missing sitters -> opposition ends up scoring

Honestly, that feels like it's been the story for the longest time. The question you have to ask is when is he going to learn?

I also believe coaches are reflections of their team. Pep's antics on the touchline during these matches reflect City on the pitch. When Zidane was involved in those chaotic situations, he always looked cool and calm. He had faith in Modric and Kroos to take control, and Ronaldo to score when it counts. With Pep it's the complete opposite LOL.

[danyjr]

I get what you're saying that it is all connected and I agree. I also think you're trying too hard to get into Pep's thought process, and while you might be right, it is a lot of speculation.

Why do you think certain coaches are known for being knock-out round specialists? Coaches like Ancelotti, Benítez, Capello (and previously Emery and Mourinho). Is it that they get their tactics right for one match, or their players' mentality? Cause the players are the same ones that flop in the league.

[BarrileteCosmico]

Who are the people defending him, exactly?

The people arguing that City needs match winners to not lose to Lyon because individual quality is what matters in the CL  nevermind how much more individual quality City has over Lyon. Casviavit, and I guess Xavi?

City doesnt need galacticos, or match winners, or more signings to beat Lyon. They need Pep to stop screwing up every season. He is the coach most supported in the transfer market in world football, to say after a loss to Lyon that he needs to be supported more for signings is laughable.

Is that really a defense of Guardiola or a criticism of how he spends City's lofty coffers?

[Casciavit]

I get what you're saying that it is all connected and I agree. I also think you're trying too hard to get into Pep's thought process, and while you might be right, it is a lot of speculation.

Why do you think certain coaches are known for being knock-out round specialists? Coaches like Ancelotti, Benítez, Capello (and previously Emery and Mourinho). Is it that they get their tactics right for one match, or their players' mentality? Cause the players are the same ones that flop in the league.

Look I feel it's more interesting to talk about the "why" rather than just blaming it all on luck or Pep being a fraud. There has been a theme for years revolving him. I've followed City's situation for the last 4 years and my views on them tend to end up being right more often than not. If someone thinks I'm talking bullshit then whatever, I'll still post the way I do.

That's a loaded question and there are a lot of variables involved, so here's my take:

Mike Tyson has a famous quote "Everyone has a plan until they get punched in the face" I feel it's very apt when it comes to Pep and City. The guy is telling them the exact passes to do from the touchline. Everything is so rehearsed and robotic. The guy sets out his team to where he wants to control every last variable. He's seeking perfection, when quite frankly it's impossible.

The reason playing like that is so effective in the league is because during the course of a 38 game season, even when the players are fatigued those memorized sequences will come into play. They don't have to think about it. They just know that certain players will be in certain locations. Pep isn't the only one who plays like that, Conte does too. Sarri is maybe even more rigid than the two of them.

Pep and Conte both struggle in the CL knockout rounds precisely because of that.

Why?

Because as I've said lots of times already, CL matches are so unpredictable. It's a knockout round that involves two legs. Pep might set out to dominate his matches but it's impossible to dominate for a full CL match. Opposition in CL don't give up the way opposition in the league do, it's a completely different mentality.

The reason guys like Zidane and Klopp thrive now, or guys like Ancelotti, Benitez, and Mourinho before is because they don't coach their teams the way Pep does. They give their players a lot more freedom, and it doesn't involve memorized routines. The drawback is that when you rely on their own creativity things will be sloppier and the positional play will be worse which will lead to them dropping points in the league. When they're fatigued or having an off-day they'll struggle, at least Pep and Conte teams can rely on the memorized patterns to carry them through those phases.

However, it's that same creativity that those coaches give their players that enable them to effectively manage CL situations. When the game becomes chaotic the players have enough experience to know how to deal with those situations and they end up relying on their individual talents to ride them through it. Watch the 2018 CL final. Modric and Kroos put in a masterclass at killing the tempo when Liverpool were trying to create a chaotic game. Modric especially was so good at dealing with the situation.

That's the problem with City. When De Bruyne gets the ball in those situations all he thinks about is forward. That's why Pep doesn't field him with Foden or Bernardo because they're similar to him in that regard. That's why he will always find a way to shoehorn Gundogan or Silva because they offer patience or 'pausa' as he likes to call it. That's why he'll probably sign Aouar too.

The possession factor is also important here. When City is playing on the front foot and dominating, but suddenly find themselves playing end-to-end because their pressing is getting broken and their highline is getting exposed, they are so vulnerable. They end up having to play deeper but Pep doesn't train his teams to defend deep, so it ends up creating a perfect storm for the opposition.

Meanwhile, the coaches you mentioned have experience telling their players to sit back and they've trained for all kind of situations. That's the key here. When you don't turn your players into robots they may lose out on consistency, but they'll know how to manage unpredictable situations better. They know how to make their players comfortable in an uncomfortable environment. They coach their teams to have the flexibility to deal with uncertainty.

So I hope you got my point here. It comes down to a lot of things, but the primary thing is familiarity. Those coaches you mentioned play in a way in that when CL games become chaotic they know how to manage because they and their players have experience with being in those kinds of in-game situations. City on the other hand doesn't. If the game doesn't go according to plan, that's when you have them in your hands.

So when I say City needs a killer it's because that's their best bet to compete in these kinds of games. Combining the way Pep plays, along with the personnel, unless he drastically changes his teams will always be involved in these chaotic situations in the CL. If Pep isn't going to drastically change, the best bet for your solution is to buy someone who can kill those games off instead of all these expensive depth signings.

[sportsczy]

Two main issues with Pep:

- He discounts the talent advantage he has in CL games against lesser opponents. So he creates strategies designed to counter the opponent when it's not necessary. He ends up shrinking the talent gap because his players are playing either in unfamiliar or uncomfortable positions.

- His defensive strategy is... possession. Well, when you don't have Xavi and Iniesta bossing the midfield, you're not going to achieve that kind of possession against good teams. So you need to have a proper defensive setup to compensate for it. He just refuses to do that. Walker, Laporte, Fernandinho and whoever is playing LB are not players who can defend 35-45 meters of space behind them. They're just not. So imo, he needs to figure this out by adapting his method.

Just my two cents.

[BarcaLearning]

So interesting

As said above then, Pep is so flawed in that he doesnt even know how to defend lol, thats quite amazing considering he was a defensive player and been a coach for so long. Its just to 'one dimensional' if in todays game u still just cant get your team to be able to defend well together with the other aspects of the game.

I guess he does try to in the CL thinking he'll get his team to defend more compared to normal game, but as shown in so many times, its not effective, probably because he and his best just isnt used to or good at that.

[rincon]

Who are the people defending him, exactly?

The people arguing that City needs match winners to not lose to Lyon because individual quality is what matters in the CL  nevermind how much more individual quality City has over Lyon. Casviavit, and I guess Xavi?

City doesnt need galacticos, or match winners, or more signings to beat Lyon. They need Pep to stop screwing up every season. He is the coach most supported in the transfer market in world football, to say after a loss to Lyon that he needs to be supported more for signings is laughable.

Is that really a defense of Guardiola or a criticism of how he spends City's lofty coffers?

It's a deflection of the bigger issue. When you out spend your opponent by a factor of 10 for 4 years, yet you lose to them 3-1, to say "he needs to be supported in the transfer market" lacks perspective. There is no humility to simply say admit failures.

There is no narrative that is exclusive to Pep about missed chances. Higuain, Ronaldo, and Bonucci missed clear chances vs Lyon, on top of the fact that we were eliminated by a non existent penalty. That's football, those misses arent Sarri's fault, but to be in the position were those misses knocked us out is.

City doesn't miss more than usual, and Sterling and co. are players of a different level than those of Lyon (or Spurs, or Monaco, etc.).

If after spending a billion pounds, and losing to minnows, your answer is to support the coach with more money in the market to rebuild with expensive players then you are trying to win in spite of your coach, not due to him.

The role of a coach is to put the team he has in the best position possible to win. It is abundantly clear that Pep has not been doing that in the CL for years with City.

So no, it's not about finishers or clutch players in this case. It's not about "seeing Pep given the money to rebuld" or being given 3 expensive players, or more clutch players. City's team is certainly good enough. None of these players are scrubs. They are at a point as a club, and due to their squad, that the expectation is higher than throwing money at the market to get past Lyon.

[jibers]

The people arguing that City needs match winners to not lose to Lyon because individual quality is what matters in the CL  nevermind how much more individual quality City has over Lyon. Casviavit, and I guess Xavi?

City doesnt need galacticos, or match winners, or more signings to beat Lyon. They need Pep to stop screwing up every season. He is the coach most supported in the transfer market in world football, to say after a loss to Lyon that he needs to be supported more for signings is laughable.

Is that really a defense of Guardiola or a criticism of how he spends City's lofty coffers?

It's a deflection of the bigger issue. When you out spend your opponent by a factor of 10 for 4 years, yet you lose to them 3-1, to say "he needs to be supported in the transfer market" lacks perspective. There is no humility to simply say admit failures.

There is no narrative that is exclusive to Pep about missed chances. Higuain, Ronaldo, and Bonucci missed clear chances vs Lyon, on top of the fact that we were eliminated by a non existent penalty. That's football, those misses arent Sarri's fault, but to be in the position were those misses knocked us out is.

City doesn't miss more than usual, and Sterling and co. are players of a different level than those of Lyon (or Spurs, or Monaco, etc.).

If after spending a billion pounds, and losing to minnows, your answer is to support the coach with more money in the market to rebuild with expensive players then you are trying to win in spite of your coach, not due to him.

The role of a coach is to put the team he has in the best position possible to win. It is abundantly clear that Pep has not been doing that in the CL for years with City.

So no, it's not about finishers or clutch players in this case. It's not about "seeing Pep given the money to rebuld" or being given 3 expensive players, or more clutch players. City's team is certainly good enough. None of these players are scrubs. They are at a point as a club, and due to their squad, that the expectation is higher than throwing money at the market to get past Lyon.

Actually the do. They create the most clear cut chances in Europe and their conversion rate based on it is not great.

At the end of the day, what matters most in these ties is converting chances. We can blame Pep for the set up, I do, I think the tactics he chose was correct but the personnel was awful.

City created 3 clear cut chances in that game and missed them all. No matter who Pep signs in mf, unless they have a killer that can score none of it will mean anything. No matter how much money they spend, if they don't get someone that can convert chances they will not do anything. Simple as. United got knocked out by Sevilla because we missed all our chances and Sevilla scored 2/2.

Look at the Bayern Lyon game, if Lyon were more clinical they could have been out of sight in that tie. Bayern have ruthless finishers. That is the big difference. Lyon created more clear cut chances against Bayern than they did City and the difference was the clinical finishing. Liverpool were winning because they were scoring from the few chances they created. The one game where they had a off-night in finishing, Atletico beat them.

[Arquitecto]

Problem with Pep is very simple and it has to do with his general form of Stewardship.

A common example (bear with me) would be say if you were to be on a speed boat with your family, and you give your daughter a camera to record your son zipping on the back of the line; if you are constantly telling her how to angle the camera, or little instructions to zoom in or move right etc she will not get the job done properly. The opposite would be to give her an entire vision on how to capture the best video and give her freedom to be at her own creative best.


Perfectionism is something I stuck to long ago and it is highly overrated similar to as is multi-tasking. Back to the Kubrick example I used last week, a common perfectionist. He once had Tom Cruise re-take a scene where he walks through a door, over 300 times, just for the perfect shot.


You know, instead of trusting a top class actor to do so himself, driving him nuts in the process.


More to the point, Guardiola is many things but his stewardship of players is known to be poor. He has no leadership.

We know that was exposed from his attitude to Eto'o to Zlatan as a man manager he is not.


He uses players as a means to fulfill whatever occurs in that bald head of his hence why he is so introspective and very quiet otherwise.


Ancelotti for example is the absolute best at that. Expects professionalism, gives freedom and everyone loves him for a reason and let his famous Milan team do what they needed to in most moments with little tactical advice.

This is where Italian teams fail, playing the game like chess and it frustrates most non-Italians. Favouring tactics over strategy will seldom win you games.


It is why Phil Brown having a microphone in his player's ears once failed miserably. These are professional players not automatons as they must be given confidence.


If you are consistently Micro-managing (key word in this post) you will fail to see the bigger picture and use what you have poorly.


Unless Pep gets out of that mentality he will continue to stumble in the same way he always does. Best manager in the world otherwise.

[BarrileteCosmico]

Who are the people defending him, exactly?

The people arguing that City needs match winners to not lose to Lyon because individual quality is what matters in the CL  nevermind how much more individual quality City has over Lyon. Casviavit, and I guess Xavi?

City doesnt need galacticos, or match winners, or more signings to beat Lyon. They need Pep to stop screwing up every season. He is the coach most supported in the transfer market in world football, to say after a loss to Lyon that he needs to be supported more for signings is laughable.

Is that really a defense of Guardiola or a criticism of how he spends City's lofty coffers?

It's a deflection of the bigger issue. When you out spend your opponent by a factor of 10 for 4 years, yet you lose to them 3-1, to say "he needs to be supported in the transfer market" lacks perspective. There is no humility to simply say admit failures.

There is no narrative that is exclusive to Pep about missed chances. Higuain, Ronaldo, and Bonucci missed clear chances vs Lyon, on top of the fact that we were eliminated by a non existent penalty. That's football, those misses arent Sarri's fault, but to be in the position were those misses knocked us out is.

City doesn't miss more than usual, and Sterling and co. are players of a different level than those of Lyon (or Spurs, or Monaco, etc.).

If after spending a billion pounds, and losing to minnows, your answer is to support the coach with more money in the market to rebuild with expensive players then you are trying to win in spite of your coach, not due to him.

The role of a coach is to put the team he has in the best position possible to win. It is abundantly clear that Pep has not been doing that in the CL for years with City.

So no, it's not about finishers or clutch players in this case. It's not about "seeing Pep given the money to rebuld" or being given 3 expensive players, or more clutch players. City's team is certainly good enough. None of these players are scrubs. They are at a point as a club, and due to their squad, that the expectation is higher than throwing money at the market to get past Lyon.

Guess I'm not interpreting that as "needs to be supported" but rather "he should've spent it on X rather than Y". Don't think anyone could reasonably argue he is not supported financially by the club.

[rincon]

Difference of interpretation, Xavi's quote does come across like that very much to me

They have some very good players of course they do - but Pep needs to be supported in the transfer market this summer. It is not that they need many players - just three exceptional ones. We know that will not come cheap - but I would like to see Pep given the money to rebuild.

[BarrileteCosmico]

Sure, but Xavi is Xavi and we all know how he can get. I was specifically talking about GL users.

[Onyx]

I've always thought that everytime he tries to 'adapt' it weakens his overall philosophy. I'm of the belief that the best model for his philosophy is 2011 Barca and that everything he does with future teams should emulate that in the closest way possible. Which is why even now I'd swap De Bruyne for Thiago or Verratti.

But if that's not going to be the approach, he should at least stick to what's won him 2 PL titles. Play with similar tactics and with the same intensity in the CL.

[danyjr]

An old quote that I only came across today:

Pep likes to dominate and wants to have obedient players who lick his hands. I do not like this kind of relationship. I respect my coach but I am not his thing. Like all players I have bickered with my coaches, but at a certain point men who do not understand each other reconcile. This is not possible with Pep, who is very rigid.

The other players will never admit it publicly but some have already told me that they ended up hating him. Because he manipulates and plays a lot with your head.

We always looked at each other weirdly. He was spinning around me without saying anything, watching me, gauging me but not talking to me. Yet he knows that I speak Catalan, Spanish and English. It should be enough to communicate. Apparently no. Every time we passed each other, he seemed embarrassed. As if I made him a little self-conscious. As if, also, he had understood that I knew him perfectly.

[Casciavit]

Actually the do. They create the most clear cut chances in Europe and their conversion rate based on it is not great.

At the end of the day, what matters most in these ties is converting chances. We can blame Pep for the set up, I do, I think the tactics he chose was correct but the personnel was awful.

City created 3 clear cut chances in that game and missed them all. No matter who Pep signs in mf, unless they have a killer that can score none of it will mean anything. No matter how much money they spend, if they don't get someone that can convert chances they will not do anything. Simple as. United got knocked out by Sevilla because we missed all our chances and Sevilla scored 2/2.

Look at the Bayern Lyon game, if Lyon were more clinical they could have been out of sight in that tie. Bayern have ruthless finishers. That is the big difference. Lyon created more clear cut chances against Bayern than they did City and the difference was the clinical finishing. Liverpool were winning because they were scoring from the few chances they created. The one game where they had a off-night in finishing, Atletico beat them.

Yup, the eye test has confirmed that for the longest time. Jesus alone underperformed his xG by 6 goals lol. No one is saying Pep didn't get his tactics wrong, it's just that City would benefit from having a killer in front of goal. Even when Pep gets his tactics wrong, his teams almost always create chances, just fail to finish them off in crunch moments.

Top players coming through for their manager when he gets it wrong has been a staple in football since the beginning. Individual players winning in spite of their manager goofing up isn't anything out of the ordinary. If I'm the owner and I want to win the CL the first thing I will do is buy forwards who can do that for me LMFAO.

https://www.premierleague.com/stats/top/clubs/big_chance_missed?se=274

City have missed the most big chances in the PL in the last three seasons. United missed the most chances in 16/17 but there was a small difference between United and City (United 50, City 48). Funnily enough, that was the same season Firenze and United fans were going on about super human goalkeeping lol.

City topped this season with 83 missed big chances, Chelsea second with 71, and Liverpool 3rd with 65. Gabriel Jesus missed 24 big chances! Sterling was 5th on the list at 18 missed big chances. Jesus missed the most big chances since RVP in 2012. The difference? One scored 14, while the other scored 30 goals.

Obviously one can make the claim that since City creates more chances, it's more likely they'll miss more chances too. Therefore maybe a better stat to use would be the rate of goals resulting only from big chances created. Not sure where to find stats for that context though. It would be an interesting stat to look at when it comes to previous CL winners.

[RealGunner]

Bayern won the CL before him. Won the CL after him.

More egg on his face

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