Serie A: Are the low goal counts predominantly because of a lack of talent or a higher regard for tactical discipline?

Carrying over the conversation from the chat.

Look its true there is a higher regard for tactical discipline.

But you have to be quite thick if you don't think it seriously lacks offensive talent.

WC forwards like Cavani and Ibra had no trouble scoring there and the likes of Suarez and Aguero would have no problem either.

The 3rd top scorer is Immobile, who was playing in Serie B last season lol.

Rossi was sitting on 14 goals for like 2 months injured before anyone caught him.... do you seriously think this would be the case if teams had better offensive players?

No way lol.

Great Leader Sprucenuce wrote:Look its true there is a higher regard for tactical discipline.

But you have to be quite thick if you don't think it seriously lacks offensive talent.

WC forwards like Cavani and Ibra had no trouble scoring there and the likes of Suarez and Aguero would have no problem either.

The 3rd top scorer is Immobile, who was playing in Serie B last season lol.

Rossi was sitting on 14 goals for like 2 months injured before anyone caught him.... do you seriously think this would be the case if teams had better offensive players?

No way lol.

Cavani had a team built around him Napoli with Hamsik and Lavezzi supplying his moves and catering the team centrally and entirely around his movements to optimize on his goals. Of course he would score there. Why wouldn't he anywhere else? What does Ibra have to do with this? Why not differentiate the difference between Ibra to Suarez or Aguero especially considering their roles would be changed accordingly to any team they would be deployed in within Serie A, as was Balotelli's.

Immobile was in Serie A last season and struggled, why? He is never efficient partnered within a two striker system and Ventura has deployed him with Cerci in his new SS role hence why is performing.

Rossi? Maybe you haven't figured out that he is actually GOOD player or how he spent every single day since his recovery training with Montella and La Nazionale's coverciano grueling semantic in which they make you play in 4 different formations every week until recovery is scientically processed.

A better way to judge defences is actually produce visual inference or tactical positionals in which show the difference in the way defences and attack cater and produce to each other instead of producing inductive logic of x+y=z to which ironically, you are vehemently against.

Dr. Mole and Mr. Hyde.

i think we should ask Higuain how he was goating in la liga of the bench but is struggling to score 20 starting most games...

i'd love to know he "attacking talent" PL has apart from Aguero, Negredo, Silva, maybe Navas and Hazard...

In the last 2 years the systems have changed a bit, more attacking football was starting to get favored but the truth is that the Italian managers are masters for tactics and that part has still remained so its kinda more balanced right now than previous years.

But most of the strikers in the world and players will continue to struggle in Serie A. Don't mention Cavani and Ibra tall and strong strikers have always succeeded in Serie A

This season in Serie A could be criticised as being slightly weaker than the past on the basis that Ibra and Cavani are no longer in the league. Yes, they are two top players who have left and it makes sense that the goal totals for this season will be lower because of that. Cavani, Ibra x2 and Di Natale x 2 have top scored with relatively high totals of 29, 28, 28, 29 and 25 back in 08-09. However, if you look back at the top goalscorer historically, Luca Toni with 31 in 05–06 is an anomaly. This is the highest total since Antonio Valentín Angelillo in 58-59 with 33, and Toni is the only person to even break the 30 goal mark since Angelillo. In the meantime, you cannot deny that Serie A boasted some of the top strikers in the world. Yet not one of them cracked 30 goals and many won top goalscorer with what you would call a 'low' number of goals scored.

Here is a selection:
07–08 Del Piero 21
03–04 Shevchenko 24
96–97 Inzaghi 24
89–90 van Basten 19
87–88 Maradona 15
82–83 Platini 16
etc.

Just to prove that this is not me just selecting low totals, have a look at the full list here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Capocannoniere It shows that the top goalscorer is rarely won with over 30 goals, often won with under 20 goals and at it's highest was won with 36 goals by Gino Rossetti in the late 1920s. Top goalscorer has been won with only 15 goals on 3 occasions.

elm_baraja_shaman wrote:i'd love to know he "attacking talent" PL has apart from Aguero, Negredo, Silva, maybe Navas and Hazard...

Well you neglect to name the best player in the league in Suarez. Then there is Sturridge who is a part of the highest goal scoring top flight team in Europe atm. Then there are world class forwards like Rooney and RVP who are playing under a clown in Moyes. Serie A's own golden boys Jovetic and Lamela who can't even get on the pitch in the PL.

Quit fishing

Oh yeah and I forgot to mention Mata who had 20 goals and like 30 assists before Mou came and benched him for no reason.

elm_baraja_shaman wrote:i'd love to know he "attacking talent" PL has apart from Aguero, Negredo, Silva, maybe Navas and Hazard...

Dzeko would easily be amongst the best strikers in Serie A and he did not even make your list...

I agree with GLS in that the talent is sorely lacking. But this is a cyclical problem, when Cavani and Ibra were playing here no one was saying anything.

That being said there is a fairly long established trend that it is much harder to score in Serie A than it is in the other top 3 european leagues.

Goals per game by league:

Even when Serie A had the best attacking talent in the world it still had fewer goals per game than most other leagues. This can only be due to how the tactical discipline in Calcio removes spaces which creates fewer scoring opportunities. Recent examples by players that moved to Serie A from other leagues corroborate this view:

Higuain: "A priori, everyone says that Calcio is more tactical. I can confirm. They are very different on a tactical level. In Italy, almost everyone plays with an extra defender and that didn't happen in Spain. You will play most games knowing that they will defend with five and that affects your plans when you want to attack and look for spaces."

Milito: "Football in Italy is more tactical and complicated. This makes easy goals, those that are a result of chance or little effort, a rarity."

So even though right now there may be temporary lack of attacking talent, the historical trend confirms that this is not the main issue but the availability of spaces to exploit in Calcio.

BarrileteCosmico wrote:

elm_baraja_shaman wrote:i'd love to know he "attacking talent" PL has apart from Aguero, Negredo, Silva, maybe Navas and Hazard...

Dzeko would easily be amongst the best strikers in Serie A and he did not even make your list...

I agree with GLS in that the talent is sorely lacking. But this is a cyclical problem, when Cavani and Ibra were playing here no one was saying anything.

That being said there is a fairly long established trend that it is much harder to score in Serie A than it is in the other top 3 european leagues.

Goals per game by league:

Even when Serie A had the best attacking talent in the world it still had fewer goals per game than most other leagues, and this can only be due to how the tactical discipline in Calcio removes spaces which creates fewer scoring opportunities. Recent examples corroborate this view:

Higuain: "A priori, everyone says that Calcio is more tactical. I can confirm. They are very different on a tactical level. In Italy, almost everyone plays with an extra defender and that didn't happen in Spain. You will play most games knowing that they will defend with five and that affects your plans when you want to attack and look for spaces."

So even though right now there may be temporary lack of attacking talent, the historical trend confirms that this is not the main issue but the availability of spaces to exploit in Calcio.

I agree.

i forgot Suarez my bad......

Forza wrote:However, if you look back at the top goalscorer historically, Luca Toni with 31 in 05–06 is an anomaly. This is the highest total since Antonio Valentín Angelillo in 58-59 with 33, and Toni is the only person to even break the 30 goal mark since Angelillo. In the meantime, you cannot deny that Serie A boasted some of the top strikers in the world. Yet not one of them cracked 30 goals and many won top goalscorer with what you would call a 'low' number of goals scored.

Here is a selection:
07–08 Del Piero 21
03–04 Shevchenko 24
96–97 Inzaghi 24
89–90 van Basten 19
87–88 Maradona 15
82–83 Platini 16

Interestingly, in the BL the top scorers also have comparatively few goals, despite the league having not too few goals overall.

Spoiler:

Luca Toni also became topscorer in the BL, albeit with "only" 24 goals in 2007/08.

So probably there are other factors for low scoring top scorers than either them being not good enough or teams having better tactical discipline.

McAgger wrote:

elm_baraja_shaman wrote:i'd love to know he "attacking talent" PL has apart from Aguero, Negredo, Silva, maybe Navas and Hazard...

Well you neglect to name the best player in the league in Suarez. Then there is Sturridge who is a part of the highest goal scoring top flight team in Europe atm. Then there are world class forwards like Rooney and RVP who are playing under a clown in Moyes. Serie A's own golden boys Jovetic and Lamela who can't even get on the pitch in the PL.

Quit fishing

Ah yes Jovetic who hasn't appeared in enough appearances for him to settle while playing a role to which he is not accustomed to. Given your fanship and monitoring of Jovetic I find it curious as to how you've used him to support you argument. Lamela playing a winger in Spurs, the same ones who play Eriksen out wide while playing Townshend above Lamela.

Moyes is shit yet that does not have van Persie forgetting how to perform the most basic of passes or shots anymore while Roonay has not been a forward for quite some while.

What does Sturridge have to do with the argument considering he has not played anywhere outside the English league?

@Alfred And how would Dzeko be the best striker in Serie A? On the basis of what? We all know what City in their incurred tendencies to play players outside their zones without the adaptation process does to them. Dzeko was played differently under Magath while in City he is being used as a bit part targetman whose shockingly low confidence has resulted in a decline of skill.

@Arq amongst the best =/= the best

BarrileteCosmico wrote:@Arq amongst the best =/= the best

I read "would be the best".

Shouldn't have missed the keyword. My apologies Alfi.

I don't think Dzeko would be amongst the top 3 at all, maybe and it's a big maybe if he was being spoon fed chances.

Tevez, Rossi, Higuain, Gomez, Balo, Llorente all better than him. A few more would be up there too if they were starting consistently for a decent side.


Whenever I see Dzeko he looks awkward, blundering about and taking awful pot shots from impossible angles. The man is a Donkey.

Tomás, it is my theory of what City does to the players they neglect. Their training methods focus mostly on weights and specifically cater on size and positional differences rather than maintain technique or improving the tactical side to the play.

Dzeko at Wolfsburg was a different man. Not only he MUST be played as a lone striker but his skills were excellent under Magath. Rule in Bundesliga was that "Stay to far from Dzeko, and he will punish you. Stay to close, and he will punish you."

Many examples attackers from City who's imbalance of maintaing their players results in serious meteoric declines. A shadow of the player I knew.

Arq ma boy, Dzeko needs to lift more. Then he may return to his old ways



Seriously though, he was ridiculous at Wolfsburg, but nowadays he's s shadow of his former self. Partially due to City, but also partially because his finishing and decision making has gone down the drain. Some of the shit he's been attempting is hilarious.

Arquitescu wrote:Dzeko at Wolfsburg was a different man. Not only he MUST be played as a lone striker but his skills were excellent under Magath. Rule in Bundesliga was that "Stay to far from Dzeko, and he will punish you. Stay to close, and he will punish you."

Actually that's not 100% correct - in the 2008/09 season, Dzeko / Grafite were a perfect strike duo who with 54 goals scored among them even snatched the all-time BL record of goals scored by a pair of strikers away from Hoeneß / Müller in 1971/72 (then 53 goals).

Tomwin Lannister wrote:Arq ma boy, Dzeko needs to lift more. Then he may return to his old ways



Seriously though, he was ridiculous at Wolfsburg, but nowadays he's s shadow of his former self. Partially due to City, but also partially because his finishing and decision making has gone down the drain. Some of the shit he's been attempting is hilarious.

Might be the shortage of Kebabs

Its not even his finishing as any striker with deduced confidence can suffer that part. Partially I blame Dzeko for not having the awareness of his decline but mostly it comes down to City who saturate their team with so many high-stake players, they are bound to have a gross decline in the players to which cannot be maintained as solutions aren't produced to poor form outside hammering them into the same system or regime to which they struggle in.

Its a disgusting way to destroy a player.


@RWO: Grafite never ever was a partner striker for Dzeko but playing directly behind him in a supporting role to which cannot be classified as a 2 man system, which is why it was so devestating within the Bundesliga. Grafite amounted those goals since Magath figured his talents are best used in deeper positions in which Dzeko created space for him/lay-offs to which Grafite capitalized vice-versa. The hallmark of their partnership.

Arquitescu wrote:

McAgger wrote:

elm_baraja_shaman wrote:i'd love to know he "attacking talent" PL has apart from Aguero, Negredo, Silva, maybe Navas and Hazard...

Well you neglect to name the best player in the league in Suarez. Then there is Sturridge who is a part of the highest goal scoring top flight team in Europe atm. Then there are world class forwards like Rooney and RVP who are playing under a clown in Moyes. Serie A's own golden boys Jovetic and Lamela who can't even get on the pitch in the PL.

Quit fishing

Ah yes Jovetic who hasn't appeared in enough appearances for him to settle while playing a role to which he is not accustomed to. Given your fanship and monitoring of Jovetic I find it curious as to how you've used him to support you argument. Lamela playing a winger in Spurs, the same ones who play Eriksen out wide while playing Townshend above Lamela.

Moyes is shit yet that does not have van Persie forgetting how to perform the most basic of passes or shots anymore while Roonay has not been a forward for quite some while.

What does Sturridge have to do with the argument considering he has not played anywhere outside the English league?

@Alfred  And how would Dzeko be the best striker in Serie A? On the basis of what? We all know what City in their incurred tendencies to play players outside their zones without the adaptation process does to them. Dzeko was played differently under Magath while in City he is being used as a bit part targetman whose shockingly low confidence has resulted in a decline of skill.

You misunderstood me Arq, my man. I was just listing Elm_Baraja the attacking talent that the PL possesses. Not in a single alternative dimension can that post be interpreted as a dig at Serie A or PL's superiority. Just that there are more attacking talent in PL than the sole 5 players that Elm Baraja thinks.

Wolfsburg Dzeko was a boss. Next Shevchenko they said... and then he went to City.

rwo power wrote:
Interestingly, in the BL the top scorers also have comparatively few goals, despite the league having not too few goals overall.

Spoiler:

Luca Toni also became topscorer in the BL, albeit with "only" 24 goals in 2007/08.

So probably there are other factors for low scoring top scorers than either them being not good enough or teams having better tactical discipline.

Didn't realize Lewandowski never became BL top scorer. Thought he was scoring 30 a season the years Dortmund won the Bundesliga and even last year.

Tomwin Lannister wrote:I don't think Dzeko would be amongst the top 3 at all, maybe and it's a big maybe if he was being spoon fed chances.

Tevez, Rossi, Higuain, Gomez, Balo, Llorente all better than him. A few more would be up there too if they were starting consistently for a decent side.


Whenever I see Dzeko he looks awkward, blundering about and taking awful pot shots from impossible angles. The man is a Donkey.

damn you are wrong ...