The 1 and only criticism of Marotta and Paratici....

For all the youngsters signed for the Primavera, or loaned to Serie B sides, I have begun to notice a trend; they do not seem to be raiding the right teams for talent, and walking away from the ones that attract interest from other teams. Players like Buoy, Appelt, Masi, Sorensen, Magnusson, and the (Lithuanian) playmaker who's name escapes me, may all turn out to be average-good players, but it almost seems as though Marotta buys players who are low risk-low reward, as opposed to players who are difference-makers; Xhano Ananidze, Eric Choupo-Moting, Lazar Markovic, Marco Verratti, and Ricardo Saponara have all either been linked with Juventus, who Juve have failed to sign, or are an up-and-coming youngerster who would be worth a look at the right price.

We should be following Udinese and Fiorentina's model regarding integrating players into the squad; they purchased Muriel, Sanchez, Fabbrini, D'agostino, Benatia/Jovetic, Ljajic, Camporese, Cuadrado, Felipe Melo etc. for peanuts, due to the fact they are willing to gamble on youth, where as Juventus have no interest until they are already accustomed, and a game-changer in x league, thus increasing their value 5-fold

I don't think we have seen the full extent of Marotta's work in bringing in young players. He has only been in his position since 2010. It would be more fair to judge him in 2-3 years to see if any of his young talents develop into great players.

Juventus went through a period of a lot of change and inconsistency in club leadership after 2006 and, as a result, we lost a lot in the youth development. Plus, he had to buy a lot of players to win immediately. He did not have the luxury of buying players for the future. Teams like Fiorentina and Udinese are almost always building for the future and are not under the pressure to win championships like Juve.

Like I said, I'd give it a few years before I judge Marotta too harshly on youth development and purchases. He built a championship winning team within two years of joining Juve. Now that he has the team back to winning, he will concentrate on youth purchases. It's hard to build both a championship team and world class youth talent at once.

Pogba, Masi, Marrone.

Besides, you dont know ALL juventus transfers, maybe those puny players have actually been sold for profit.

Juventude wrote:I don't think we have seen the full extent of Marotta's work in bringing in young players.  He has only been in his position since 2010.  It would be more fair to judge him in 2-3 years to see if any of his young talents develop into great players.  

Juventus went through a period of a lot of change and inconsistency in club leadership after 2006 and, as a result, we lost a lot in the youth development.  Plus, he had to buy a lot of players to win immediately.  He did not have the luxury of buying players for the future.  Teams like Fiorentina and Udinese are almost always building for the future and are not under the pressure to win championships like Juve.

Like I said, I'd give it a few years before I judge Marotta too harshly on youth development and purchases.  He built a championship winning team within two years of joining Juve.  Now that he has the team back to winning, he will concentrate on youth purchases.  It's hard to build both a championship team and world class youth talent at once.

I am not criticizing Marotta and Paratici; they have done well, with the exception of the Aguero debacle last year. They, as you already pointed out, rebuilt a team which was very unbalanced, and littered with players who were mediocre, past their prime, overpaid, or all 3. I commend Agnelli, Nedved, Marotta, Conte, and Paratici for somehow rebuilding a team almost entirely from scratch, with the budget Lapo afforded them; I am just pointing out that it would be cost-effective for them to take a gamble on a young player with a huge upset, rather than waiting 3 years and having the value of the player sky-rocket

Jano Ananidze is beast but he is set for some club with money trust me

We still have to see how Marotta's other signings develop: Pol García Tena age 16, Leonardo Citti 16, King Udoh 14, Federico Di Giovanni 14, Christian Tavanti 16, Gabriele Moncini 15, Niccolò Arcangioli 15, Stefano Beltrame 18, Yussif Raman Cibsah 18, Zoran Josipovic 16, Marco Di Benedetto 16.

Some of these guys are just kids. For every €10 million for Marković. Let's not forget Eric Maxim Choupo-Moting went to Mainz for free. I think there are two aspects to consider, foreign scouting and youth development. They both require investment. I think Marotta sees development as more of a prioroty. I suppose this is part of the Azzurri-Juve historical connection. But anyway, I agree that other clubs are far better at the foreign scouting... especially Udinese. Originally I thought that this wouldn't be the way to go because of FIFA's 6+5 rule. But when it was shot down, those teams with extensive foreign scouting systems really benefited. You're probably right that more should be invested in this field. Although I wouldn't want it to come at the expense of youth development. I guess we'll have to see if Marotta's (heavily Italian youth) bet pays off.

nyluigi wrote:We still have to see how Marotta's other signings develop: Pol García Tena age 16, Leonardo Citti 16, King Udoh 14, Federico Di Giovanni 14, Christian Tavanti 16, Gabriele Moncini 15, Niccolò Arcangioli 15, Stefano Beltrame 18, Yussif Raman Cibsah 18, Zoran Josipovic 16, Marco Di Benedetto 16.

Some of these guys are just kids. For every €10 million for Marković. Let's not forget Eric Maxim Choupo-Moting went to Mainz for free. I think there are two aspects to consider, foreign scouting and youth development. They both require investment. I think Marotta sees development as more of a prioroty. I suppose this is part of the Azzurri-Juve historical connection. But anyway, I agree that other clubs are far better at the foreign scouting... especially Udinese. Originally I thought that this wouldn't be the way to go because of FIFA's 6+5 rule. But when it was shot down, those teams with extensive foreign scouting systems really benefited. You're probably right that more should be invested in this field. Although I wouldn't want it to come at the expense of youth development. I guess we'll have to see if Marotta's (heavily Italian youth) bet pays off.

With all due respect to the players you named, most of them are of mid-table Serie B level; someone like Marchisio had an almighty-time breaking into the Juve starting xi for then first 2 1/2 years, he was not utilized for the first 1/2 of the Serie B (joke-relegation) season, then sent on loan to Empoli. He only became a mainstay after the 2nd half of the season under Ranieri; for someone who is world-class to have such a tough time, does not bode well for most of the Primavera players.

Of the players you named, only Chibsah, Garcia Tena, Citti, Curti, and Josipovic have any chance of potentially being a mainstay with Juventus; the remainder of the players will either be loaned out or used as bait for a bigger-name at some point in the future.

The Bundesliga, for example, have produced players like Ozil, Choupo-Moting, Holtby, Mueller, Kroos, Gotze, Hummels, Podolski, Klose, etc. who were either purchased for peanuts because of great foreign scouting, or developed with the junior side and given a chance to show their skills, rather than continually sent out on loan or used as chips, ie, Pasquato for one, should be given an opportunity, but will most-likely be sent to Spezia, Padova, or Ternana

True dat. Good points. I suppose that the half-full Perspective would dictate that now that Juve have re-established league dominance along with a good Champions League campaign they now have the cache to lure better players Without paying astronomical salaries. They certainly will have more money to divert to scouting and youth Development. Teams like Atalanta are in the business of youth sector. Fiorentina also have a wonderful local youth scouting system. And Udinese are renowned for their Foreign scouting system. It's tough for Juve to balance being competitive and giving youth their proper opportunity. I would have like to have given Gabbiadini or Zaza a chance this year. And if not them, Immobile or Boakye. I share your frustration bro.

Hey, on a similar note. I cant help but think Giovinco's time spent at Empoli and Parma more so stunted his development. I know his attitude wasn't the beat, but he could have learned a great deal about being a Champion.

Juvellinapoli wrote:

nyluigi wrote:We still have to see how Marotta's other signings develop: Pol García Tena age 16, Leonardo Citti 16, King Udoh 14, Federico Di Giovanni 14, Christian Tavanti 16, Gabriele Moncini 15, Niccolò Arcangioli 15, Stefano Beltrame 18, Yussif Raman Cibsah 18, Zoran Josipovic 16, Marco Di Benedetto 16.

Some of these guys are just kids. For every €10 million for Marković. Let's not forget Eric Maxim Choupo-Moting went to Mainz for free. I think there are two aspects to consider, foreign scouting and youth development. They both require investment. I think Marotta sees development as more of a prioroty. I suppose this is part of the Azzurri-Juve historical connection. But anyway, I agree that other clubs are far better at the foreign scouting... especially Udinese. Originally I thought that this wouldn't be the way to go because of FIFA's 6+5 rule. But when it was shot down, those teams with extensive foreign scouting systems really benefited. You're probably right that more should be invested in this field. Although I wouldn't want it to come at the expense of youth development. I guess we'll have to see if Marotta's (heavily Italian youth) bet pays off.

With all due respect to the players you named, most of them are of mid-table Serie B level; someone like Marchisio had an almighty-time breaking into the Juve starting xi for then first 2 1/2 years, he was not utilized for the first 1/2 of the Serie B (joke-relegation) season, then sent on loan to Empoli. He only became a mainstay after the 2nd half of the season under Ranieri; for someone who is world-class to have such a tough time, does not bode well for most of the Primavera players.

Of the players you named, only Chibsah, Garcia Tena, Citti, Curti, and Josipovic have any chance of potentially being a mainstay with Juventus; the remainder of the players will either be loaned out or used as bait for a bigger-name at some point in the future.

The Bundesliga, for example, have produced players like Ozil, Choupo-Moting, Holtby, Mueller, Kroos, Gotze, Hummels, Podolski, Klose, etc. who were either purchased for peanuts because of great foreign scouting, or developed with the junior side and given a chance to show their skills, rather than continually sent out on loan or used as chips, ie, Pasquato for one, should be given an opportunity, but will most-likely be sent to Spezia, Padova, or Ternana

 
If you're criticizing the loan system in Italian football, that's a separate criticism from your original argument about Juve not investing in young top prospects.  I actually enjoy the loan system and I think it's very effective for the development of players.  Just because Juve has had a dry spell in terms of developing a top prospect player that does not mean that they are incapable of doing it.  
 
If you look closely at the list of players you named, a lot of them are Bayern Munich players and most of those players were signed in the mid-2000s when they were younger.  Bayern really because successful financially during that time, along with the entire Bundesliga, and made investments that paid off.  
 
Now, let's look at Juventus.  Juve has only really became strongly profitable in the last year due to the new stadium, getting rid of bad contracts, and lowering the costs of transfers in rebuilding the team.  If you put Juve on the time table of a team like Bayern Munich, that would mean that Juve would probably see success from youth players and prospects in about 5-7 years from when the finances were in good shape.  
 
I understand your points, but I think you are rushing to judgment on Marotta on this issue.  Juve simply could not afford to spend a few million on a prospect that may or may not develop into a great player when they had huge holes in their first team squad.  
 
A good example is Lucas Piazon.  Marotta was strongly pursuing him, but we got outbid by Chelsea.  Piazon cost £5 million and that fee could rise to £10 million depending on performance clauses.  That was in March 2011 during the season that Juve came in 7th place.  Juve was not in a position to spend 5-10m on a prospect when we lacked players at nearly every position.  
 
Like I said, give it time.  It's way too early to judge Juve on their youth purchases.  The best is yet to come.

nyluigi wrote:Hey, on a similar note. I cant help but think Giovinco's time spent at Empoli and Parma more so stunted his development. I know his attitude wasn't the beat, but he could have learned a great deal about being a Champion.

Gio's loans were great for him. His time at Juve is what was stunting his development. To me, he's not even Juve material anyways. Parma is the type of club he should be playing for.

Its tough to 'integrate' young players into the team when you aim to win it all unless if you're some exceptional talent like Pogba.And you cant say we are going to get lucky with every talent we buy.

I dont see any criticism towards them here.And unlike smaller clubs like Fiorentina and Udinese there's more pressure to perform at Juventus.There's not much room for error because you're going to get limited opportunities here and you must capitalize on it.This is the reality of all big clubs.And we dont/havent produced Zidane's and Platini's either in our youth system to suggest that this plan of integrating youth could work out.

Frankly there's nothing wrong with what they're doing.If the players we loaned out turn out to be really great ,we buy them back otherwise we'll sell them for profit.

Giovinco is 26 now. If he was to play for Parma than we are admitting that he isn't Juve quality.... which you did lol. I am inclined to agree with you, but then perhaps he should have been sold when his value was at its highest. I agree the Empoli loan was good, but the Parma loan He had a 1/3 goal per appearances rate during that time. He had 7 league goals in 2010. Iaquinta had 4 goals in and Luca Toni had 2 during the same year. Gio had 15 goals the following year. Quags had 4, A.D.P. 3, Vucinic 9, Boriello 2. I am only saying that they could have and should have found space for him during those seasons.

nyluigi wrote:Giovinco is 26 now. If he was to play for Parma than we are admitting that he isn't Juve quality.... which you did lol. I am inclined to agree with you, but then perhaps he should have been sold when his value was at its highest. I agree the Empoli loan was good, but the Parma loan He had a 1/3 goal per appearances rate during that time. He had 7 league goals in 2010. Iaquinta had 4 goals in and Luca Toni had 2 during the same year. Gio had 15 goals the following year. Quags had 4, A.D.P. 3, Vucinic 9, Boriello 2. I am only saying that they could have and should have found space for him during those seasons.

The offensive tactics were basically built around Giovinco as the main offensive threat when he was at Parma. That is why he scored so many goals. Parma can afford to build their attack around Giovinco. Juve cannot afford to put him at the center of our attack because we have so many good players to distribute the attack around. Gio can shine at provincial teams, but he'll never be a star for a top team.

But our offense wasn't built around anybody those years. I don't buy idea that tactically the player couldn't be incorporated. Coaches who are far more knowledgeable than I manage to use whomever is best at their disposal. Tactics should change to accommodate talent, no? I look at Boriello and Toni and Iaquinto and they didn't deserve those starts. While I agree Giovinco may not really be Juve quality, he surely was a better option the Toni or Boriello? I understand they are positionally different players, but he could have been played on the wing perhaps instead of Giaccherini. Hell, I know it's not politically correct, but A.D.P.'s productivity was almost non-consequential that year.

nyluigi wrote:But our offense wasn't built around anybody those years.  I don't buy idea that tactically the player couldn't be incorporated. Coaches who are far more knowledgeable than I manage to use whomever is best at their disposal. Tactics should change to accommodate talent, no?  I look at Boriello and Toni and Iaquinto and they didn't deserve those starts. While I agree Giovinco may not really be Juve quality, he surely was a better option the Toni or Boriello? I understand they are positionally different players, but he could have been played on the wing perhaps instead of Giaccherini. Hell, I know it's not politically correct, but A.D.P.'s productivity was almost non-consequential that year.

You are mixing up some time periods for players and managers. Toni was just an emergency cover. He appeared in 14 games most as a substitute and I'm sure a number were Coppa matches. Plus, he's a CF, so his playing time was never an issue with Giovinco.

Iaquinta's playing time really went down after 2009. Gio was still only 22 at that time and he had his chance to play. Gio appeared in 34 games and had 3 goals over two seasons with Juve from 2008-10. He clearly needed to go to a team where he could develop and that's why he went to Parma after the 2009-10 season. In the deal to go to Parma, we gave Parma an option to buy his half, which they took after the 2010-11 season and this gave them his playing rights for 2011-12. This is why Gio did not arrive until 2012-13 because that was the first year we could buy him back from Parma. Also, I'd consider Iaquinta another CF.

As for Boriello, another CF not in competition with Gio for position, Conte liked him and again he was another player, like Toni, that arrived in January 2012 to plug a temporary hole. Plus, Boriello defends the way Conte likes his forwards to defend. Gio is not great at that part of his game. Plus, Gio was still in Parma, which we didn't control.

Also, remember that in 2009-10, Juve decided to build its offense around Diego and we know how that worked and that probably negatively impacted Gio.

My point is that if you look at Gio's history, he was not the victim of a manager not using him. He played at Empoli until he was 21, which is still young. He came to Juve and couldn't break through with Juve, so he was loaned out and Parma took advantage of the agreement and kept him for two years. If Gio wants to show he deserves to be at Juve, then it's up to him to make an impact. Juve should not have to cater to him. He has not shown that he is good enough to have a manager like Conte change his winning tactics to allow Gio to score goals.

Gio had 15 goals in 36 app. in 2011-12. Del Piero had 23 appearances with 3 goals, Quags had 4 in 23. Mirko 9 in 32. Borriello 2 in 13. Even Matri- Team goal leader that year had 10 in 31.

I definitely agree that the carousel of coaches didn't help though (Ranieri, Ferrara, Zach, Delneri).

Lol. I forgot what this topic was even about.

Oh yeah,

Juventude wrote:If Gio wants to show he deserves to be at Juve, then it's up to him to make an impact.

Totally agree. Good point! I would have loved to pick up another quality FW/ST this summer. Tevez, Llorente, Vucinic, and Mr. X would have been nice. Then sell Quags, Gio, Matri.

If we sell Matri and Quags, this would have been a good season to include Gabbiadini in the squad, but that's not an option anymore.

Gabbiadini would have been wonderful addition.  

Veratti went to PSG for around €12m... right?

Ugh
Giaccherini - €4.25M
Isla - €9.4M
Giovinco - €11M
Bendtner - €1.5M
Peluso - €1.5M

There weren't many teams even outside Italy that were going to pay over 10m for Verratti. He had only played in Serie B. It may look like a bad decision now, but, at the time, it would have been ridiculous to pay that much for an unproven player that hadn't played one game in a top level league. If I remember correctly, Juve and Napoli were interested when his price was 10m, but Pescara then raised the price and got PSG to buy him. Teams like PSG, Chelsea, etc. have money to burn and they can sign any prospect for around 10m. That's nothing to those teams.

Juventude wrote:

Juvellinapoli wrote:

nyluigi wrote:We still have to see how Marotta's other signings develop: Pol García Tena age 16, Leonardo Citti 16, King Udoh 14, Federico Di Giovanni 14, Christian Tavanti 16, Gabriele Moncini 15, Niccolò Arcangioli 15, Stefano Beltrame 18, Yussif Raman Cibsah 18, Zoran Josipovic 16, Marco Di Benedetto 16.

Some of these guys are just kids. For every €10 million for Marković. Let's not forget Eric Maxim Choupo-Moting went to Mainz for free. I think there are two aspects to consider, foreign scouting and youth development. They both require investment. I think Marotta sees development as more of a prioroty. I suppose this is part of the Azzurri-Juve historical connection. But anyway, I agree that other clubs are far better at the foreign scouting... especially Udinese. Originally I thought that this wouldn't be the way to go because of FIFA's 6+5 rule. But when it was shot down, those teams with extensive foreign scouting systems really benefited. You're probably right that more should be invested in this field. Although I wouldn't want it to come at the expense of youth development. I guess we'll have to see if Marotta's (heavily Italian youth) bet pays off.

With all due respect to the players you named, most of them are of mid-table Serie B level; someone like Marchisio had an almighty-time breaking into the Juve starting xi for then first 2 1/2 years, he was not utilized for the first 1/2 of the Serie B (joke-relegation) season, then sent on loan to Empoli. He only became a mainstay after the 2nd half of the season under Ranieri; for someone who is world-class to have such a tough time, does not bode well for most of the Primavera players.

Of the players you named, only Chibsah, Garcia Tena, Citti, Curti, and Josipovic have any chance of potentially being a mainstay with Juventus; the remainder of the players will either be loaned out or used as bait for a bigger-name at some point in the future.

The Bundesliga, for example, have produced players like Ozil, Choupo-Moting, Holtby, Mueller, Kroos, Gotze, Hummels, Podolski, Klose, etc. who were either purchased for peanuts because of great foreign scouting, or developed with the junior side and given a chance to show their skills, rather than continually sent out on loan or used as chips, ie, Pasquato for one, should be given an opportunity, but will most-likely be sent to Spezia, Padova, or Ternana

 
If you're criticizing the loan system in Italian football, that's a separate criticism from your original argument about Juve not investing in young top prospects.  I actually enjoy the loan system and I think it's very effective for the development of players.  Just because Juve has had a dry spell in terms of developing a top prospect player that does not mean that they are incapable of doing it.  
 
If you look closely at the list of players you named, a lot of them are Bayern Munich players and most of those players were signed in the mid-2000s when they were younger.  Bayern really because successful financially during that time, along with the entire Bundesliga, and made investments that paid off.  
 
Now, let's look at Juventus.  Juve has only really became strongly profitable in the last year due to the new stadium, getting rid of bad contracts, and lowering the costs of transfers in rebuilding the team.  If you put Juve on the time table of a team like Bayern Munich, that would mean that Juve would probably see success from youth players and prospects in about 5-7 years from when the finances were in good shape.  
 
I understand your points, but I think you are rushing to judgment on Marotta on this issue.  Juve simply could not afford to spend a few million on a prospect that may or may not develop into a great player when they had huge holes in their first team squad.  
 
A good example is Lucas Piazon.  Marotta was strongly pursuing him, but we got outbid by Chelsea.  Piazon cost £5 million and that fee could rise to £10 million depending on performance clauses.  That was in March 2011 during the season that Juve came in 7th place.  Juve was not in a position to spend 5-10m on a prospect when we lacked players at nearly every position.  
 
Like I said, give it time.  It's way too early to judge Juve on their youth purchases.  The best is yet to come.

I am not criticizing the loan system in the Serie A/B; its a way for a club's younger players to gain experience, and then (potentially) come back and fight for their place with the club which originally sent them out on loan. Juve loan out/orchestrate co-ownerships for players all the time, that is not the concern; I used Cristian Pasquato as a example, as I believe he has shown enough promise with Modena, and Bologna to warrant a shoty with Juve, the problem is, Pasquato is 1 of very few Juve prospects who can actually make a difference, currently. Again, Chibsah, Pogba, etc. will, in the next 2-3 years begin to have a major impact, but short of the players I listed earlier, the other players from the Primavera are mediocre-average.

The Primavera can be stocked with promising players, but Marotta chooses the low risk-low reward approach. Tell me, Pukki, Rudnevs, Gotze, Ozil, Goretzka, Chopou-Moting, Ilicic, Pastore, Cavani, James Rodriguez, Konopolyanka, Sanchez, Muriel, Cuadrado just to name a few, would not have been worth a risk from Marotta/Blanc? Each of the above-mentioned players was purchased for less than 15m euro and were rejected by Juventus' DG, yet when someone like Jovetic, who was purchased for 11m euro from Partizan, is available for 30m euro, Marotta claims "Juve develop players"

nyluigi wrote:Gabbiadini would have been wonderful addition.  

Veratti went to PSG for around €12m... right?

Ugh
Giaccherini - €4.25M
Isla - €9.4M
Giovinco - €11M
Bendtner - €1.5M
Peluso - €1.5M

It's not really about the price, it's about what you're paying for. Verratti cost 12M and didn't have a single first division appearance, that represents a very large risk as well as a very unknown quantity. Vidal cost around the same but was warranted. No one could ever doubt Verratti's talent but when you get someone of Pogba's talent for free, it's hard to justify Verratti's price tag

Pogba > verratti

I understand your points, Juvellinapoli, but I just disagree with reaching your conclusion at this point in time. I just think it will be fairer to judge Juve's policies towards purchasing prospects in 2-3 years.

It doesn't make sense to criticize Marotta now because it is unknown how some of our players will develop and whether our purchase policies will change now that we are financially stable and profitable. Plus, I don't agree with your definitive negative conclusions about some of our youth players. It's far too early for me or anyone else on this forum to conclude that they won't develop into great players.

salmano9 wrote:Pogba > verratti

Too different at they're at different stages. I would rate Verratti higher only because he has cemented a starting place at his team and has put together a very impressive season. Pogba has been great too and for value I prefer Pogba because he was signed on a free and his potential is incredible, I think better than Verratti's potential