Palestinian state, are you with or against?

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Should the UN recognize a Palestinian state? (State why)

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Total Votes : 45
 

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Post by Yuri Yukuv Wed Sep 28, 2011 5:54 pm

@Lord Spencer wrote:The fact that Obama had to deny he is a Muslim 48595 times is really telling on the whole myth that is freedom. You are as free as your society lets you.

In the privacy of one's own home, it is a different domain. But do Palestinians know about that, they don't have homes Palestinian state, are you with or against? - Page 3 2859867778

Wait so its not the right of people to ask what the religion of their president is?

Barrack Hussein Obama, the son of a muslim african immigrant father and a white christian mother is the president of our country. I really dont see how you can twist this against the country.

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Post by Raptorgunner Wed Sep 28, 2011 6:51 pm

I am down with what ever that can stop the fighting.
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Post by zizzle Wed Sep 28, 2011 8:09 pm

@Yuri Yukuv wrote:

Ill say this again I am not with israel or palestine, but arabs have to get a grip they will never get support of the united states as long as israel stands for occidental values in the midst of anti-western countries. Forget about it, it will never happen. Most people in the states would support israel state against arabs because they would see it as a cutting off a threat to their individual rights in general and their personal rights in extension. Personally I dont agree, not because I think most arab countries are against individual capitalistic rights but because I dont see them as a threat.


if you think the states support israel becasue of its values then you're deluded. Israel has no values and they have no respect for human rights what so ever, i already posted a link about discrimiation against minorities in israel and how the israeli goverment never took any serious steps to insure equality so i suggest you give a look

Plus the united states is one of the contributing factors why arab countires are so behind regarding civil and human rights, how ? The united states has forever supported totalitarian regiems in the middle east and they always used their influence to insure that they remain as rules of these countries ! I dont need to tell you about how deep the relationships are between the US and Saudi Arabia, and yet the Saudis are the worst regarding human rights ! the US supported Mubarak for more than 20 years, and if they really care about civil rights then they would have supported the revolution in egypt since day one, but instead they hesitated and never called him to step down untill he was practically out. The US supports the Qatari ruling family who host America's biggest military base in the middle east, and the same thing goes for all the gulf countries.

If they United States really supports human rights then why do they Veto any security council resolution that condemns israel's massacrs in gaza and Lebanon ? the examples are countless and if you're not aware of them then ill gladly provide a source

im expecting you to reply to this post and not ignore it like the 2 previous ones. Homosexuality is not the main discussion you know
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Post by Lord Awesome Wed Sep 28, 2011 10:57 pm

They should have been regonized long ago.
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Post by ÖMARz Thu Sep 29, 2011 12:35 am

Yes to Palestinian statehood, No to zionist terrorists.

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Post by jenno Thu Sep 29, 2011 5:20 am

Yuri my friend.. do you know Lebanon more than Lebanese people?

Of course we can't be pro-israel... how can a true lebanese be pro israel after all what they did to our country?

What stupid man would want to be in peace now with Israel.. and Israel still have some of OUR territories which are very rich in water?
With Israel still having many and many lebanese in their prisons...

Man you live in Macedonia.. you watch CNN and Euronews..
30% of what they say is true Smile 70% is pro USA!
All you know of Lebanon is "war", "explosions"... This is what they put in the news just to always find some arguments to the presence of Israel!

Oh and BTW Lebanon is the most democratic country in the MIDDLE EAST, including ISRAEL! Do you really think a politician in Israel who is pro-peace with Lebanon, Syria and Palestine can be elected?
If he will be elected.. he will be dead because of some people who try everything to let our countries having problems!

My friend.. to you know why civil war happened in lebanon? for 30 years?
I can tell you, there was a bus of palestinians refugees with weapons who was out of his own country because of Israel; this bus was one of the causes for the lebanese civil war!
Why did that happen? because of Israel Smile

There are many things I can talk about... but please stay on topic and talk about the Palestinan state, if you are against or with.. because outside this you have not enough clues to talk about.

Sigh...

Oh and Btw Hala Madrid Smile
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Post by guest7 Thu Sep 29, 2011 6:10 am

Yuri, Lebanon is very democratic. Go to Beirut, you will find as many homos as christians etc.

There are some areas that might not be democratic though, however the times I'm there I'm usually at Tripoli and Beirut and both of these are democratic.
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Post by MJ Thu Sep 29, 2011 6:41 am

@ Yuri

You're twisting my words and the definition of the word democracy, not this Romantic broad stroke of justice you're trying to turn it into.

I said it's something that people in Lebanon don't accept. Some people were raised in a different time with different values and beliefs and therefore don't think like you, get over it.

Zizzle is absolutely right, address his reply or continue going on tangents about homosexuality, Barack Obama, and your twisted definition of democracy.


The U.S. and Israel expecting the Middle East to cooperate is a MASSIVE JOKE. The U.S. support what benefits them no matter how hypocritical or parallel it is to their supposed stance.

Examples: Israel, Hugo Chavez, Augusto Pinochet, The Shah of Iran, and so many more that it hurts that people can be so blinded.

Your logic is a joke.

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Post by InterMalia Fri Sep 30, 2011 8:29 pm

If they get recognized, they'll become two autonomous regions in a matter of time.
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Post by Ali Sat Oct 01, 2011 4:46 am

Yuri is a moron.
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Post by Senor Penguin Sat Oct 01, 2011 5:09 am

ali8775 wrote:Yuri is a moron.
If not a moron then an ignoramus. :flower:

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Post by Yuri Yukuv Wed Oct 05, 2011 2:15 pm

@zizzle wrote:
@Yuri Yukuv wrote:

Ill say this again I am not with israel or palestine, but arabs have to get a grip they will never get support of the united states as long as israel stands for occidental values in the midst of anti-western countries. Forget about it, it will never happen. Most people in the states would support israel state against arabs because they would see it as a cutting off a threat to their individual rights in general and their personal rights in extension. Personally I dont agree, not because I think most arab countries are against individual capitalistic rights but because I dont see them as a threat.


if you think the states support israel becasue of its values then you're deluded. Israel has no values and they have no respect for human rights what so ever, i already posted a link about discrimiation against minorities in israel and how the israeli goverment never took any serious steps to insure equality so i suggest you give a look

Plus the united states is one of the contributing factors why arab countires are so behind regarding civil and human rights, how ? The united states has forever supported totalitarian regiems in the middle east and they always used their influence to insure that they remain as rules of these countries ! I dont need to tell you about how deep the relationships are between the US and Saudi Arabia, and yet the Saudis are the worst regarding human rights ! the US supported Mubarak for more than 20 years, and if they really care about civil rights then they would have supported the revolution in egypt since day one, but instead they hesitated and never called him to step down untill he was practically out. The US supports the Qatari ruling family who host America's biggest military base in the middle east, and the same thing goes for all the gulf countries.

If they United States really supports human rights then why do they Veto any security council resolution that condemns israel's massacrs in gaza and Lebanon ? the examples are countless and if you're not aware of them then ill gladly provide a source

im expecting you to reply to this post and not ignore it like the 2 previous ones. Homosexuality is not the main discussion you know

Wait what?

The palestinians have elected mps into the parliament, who have full voting rights. The palestinians have freedom of speech in israel, freedom of movement and freedom to work wherever they want. They are able to conduct everything about their private lives away from the government.

Listen buddy, the goals of the united states are first to safeguard and strengthen the rights of people who already have them and then to extend it to people who dont have any and way way later it is to enable nations to collectively vote and decide their destiny. If you think any american would support a democratically elected government islamic or socialist that would surpress the rights of an individual you are deluded.

Yes we are allied to saudi arabia, egypt and qatar. You know why? they are the best of the worst in a backwater. Compare how egypt treated their protesters to how libya or syria did, guess what the last two were unbelievably abusive killing machines who were not allied to the US. Just compare the numbers of deaths in libya, syria and iran when they had their revolutions to the ones in tunisia and egypt (our allies). You know why there wasn't so much deaths and the presidents eventually left? because we have some leverage and will hold them accountable.

Wait so supporting a populist movement in which 1 or 2 out of 80 million would be the right thing for civil rights? The people revolting were not organized, we did not know who they were. What if they were part of a totalarian take over that would further hurt human rights?

In the US we live in a republic not a democracy, my rights are a 100x more important than the democracy. If I had to choose I know which one I would pick, the US should always support individual rights over democracy no matter what.

Again I dont see your point with us vetoing decisions, UN democracy doesnt mean it is right. And yeah btw last time I checked the massacre of sabra was commited by LEBANESE! Many who are still in politics today. How about you campaign for justice in your country before you blame it on the jews and america.
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Post by Lord Spencer Wed Oct 05, 2011 2:56 pm

@Yuri Yukuv wrote:
@zizzle wrote:
@Yuri Yukuv wrote:

Ill say this again I am not with israel or palestine, but arabs have to get a grip they will never get support of the united states as long as israel stands for occidental values in the midst of anti-western countries. Forget about it, it will never happen. Most people in the states would support israel state against arabs because they would see it as a cutting off a threat to their individual rights in general and their personal rights in extension. Personally I dont agree, not because I think most arab countries are against individual capitalistic rights but because I dont see them as a threat.


if you think the states support israel becasue of its values then you're deluded. Israel has no values and they have no respect for human rights what so ever, i already posted a link about discrimiation against minorities in israel and how the israeli goverment never took any serious steps to insure equality so i suggest you give a look

Plus the united states is one of the contributing factors why arab countires are so behind regarding civil and human rights, how ? The united states has forever supported totalitarian regiems in the middle east and they always used their influence to insure that they remain as rules of these countries ! I dont need to tell you about how deep the relationships are between the US and Saudi Arabia, and yet the Saudis are the worst regarding human rights ! the US supported Mubarak for more than 20 years, and if they really care about civil rights then they would have supported the revolution in egypt since day one, but instead they hesitated and never called him to step down untill he was practically out. The US supports the Qatari ruling family who host America's biggest military base in the middle east, and the same thing goes for all the gulf countries.

If they United States really supports human rights then why do they Veto any security council resolution that condemns israel's massacrs in gaza and Lebanon ? the examples are countless and if you're not aware of them then ill gladly provide a source

im expecting you to reply to this post and not ignore it like the 2 previous ones. Homosexuality is not the main discussion you know

Wait what?

The palestinians have elected mps into the parliament, who have full voting rights. The palestinians have freedom of speech in israel, freedom of movement and freedom to work wherever they want. They are able to conduct everything about their private lives away from the government.

Listen buddy, the goals of the united states are first to safeguard and strengthen the rights of people who already have them and then to extend it to people who dont have any and way way later it is to enable nations to collectively vote and decide their destiny. If you think any american would support a democratically elected government islamic or socialist that would surpress the rights of an individual you are deluded.

Yes we are allied to saudi arabia, egypt and qatar. You know why? they are the best of the worst in a backwater. Compare how egypt treated their protesters to how libya or syria did, guess what the last two were unbelievably abusive killing machines who were not allied to the US. Just compare the numbers of deaths in libya, syria and iran when they had their revolutions to the ones in tunisia and egypt (our allies). You know why there wasn't so much deaths and the presidents eventually left? because we have some leverage and will hold them accountable.

Wait so supporting a populist movement in which 1 or 2 out of 80 million would be the right thing for civil rights? The people revolting were not organized, we did not know who they were. What if they were part of a totalarian take over that would further hurt human rights?

In the US we live in a republic not a democracy, my rights are a 100x more important than the democracy. If I had to choose I know which one I would pick, the US should always support individual rights over democracy no matter what.

Again I dont see your point with us vetoing decisions, UN democracy doesnt mean it is right. And yeah btw last time I checked the massacre of sabra was commited by LEBANESE! Many who are still in politics today. How about you campaign for justice in your country before you blame it on the jews and america.

I just want to comment that the Shah who as an American ally killed over 50 thousand Iranians during the 1970 revolution.

Saudi Arabia killed over 10000 shia's and others and injured more including women and children during the 1980 revolution.

Also, Saudi Arabia is known to fund over 40% of Al-Qaeda's income. With names including high officials in the government implicated according to wikileaks

Iran's death toll in the last election revolutions does not exceed 1000 and that is by the most exaggerated estimate.

The Sabra massacre was perpetrated by Christian Maronese under the watchful eye and support of the Israeli army, Israel were convicted and the Israeli government launched an investigation, but no reports or punishment were made due to that investigation.
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Post by Yuri Yukuv Wed Oct 05, 2011 3:24 pm

What?

3,000 to 4,000 people died in the iranian revolution which lasted a looooooooooooooooooong time btw.

Where is this supposed killing of 10,000 by saudi arabia? I cant find it

And yeah saudi arabians did fund alqaeda for a long time but that is somewhat expected its a country with free capital flows, large population and large gdp per capita compared to the region. There were some holes and the saudis begun to plug them after 2005. The goverment entity was never involved or any of the key figures (some people who worked for the government which is +90% of the population were)

Wait you know what the israelis did right? The israelis basically waited outside and while arabs brutally killed other arabs children men and women. They did this because their leader was assassinated and they went for bloody tribal like revenge, not one person was killed by an israeli.

Israel conducted an investigation and nothing came up about israelis killing women and children, let me ask you this though did lebanon open an investigation?

It really amazes me how back ward that part of the world is. The rulers treat their subjects so bad, muslims and christians treat each other so bad, shia and sunnis treat each other so bad, fathers treat their sons bad, mothers treat their daughters bad, men treat their wives bad. I never hear this about israelis though.

We know the problem isnt islam, we can just look at malaysia and singapore.

This is the regime that was fighting israel in 1967



When was the last time we saw americans or jews killing each other like its nothing?
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Post by zizzle Wed Oct 05, 2011 4:08 pm

@Yuri Yukuv wrote:
@zizzle wrote:
@Yuri Yukuv wrote:

Ill say this again I am not with israel or palestine, but arabs have to get a grip they will never get support of the united states as long as israel stands for occidental values in the midst of anti-western countries. Forget about it, it will never happen. Most people in the states would support israel state against arabs because they would see it as a cutting off a threat to their individual rights in general and their personal rights in extension. Personally I dont agree, not because I think most arab countries are against individual capitalistic rights but because I dont see them as a threat.


if you think the states support israel becasue of its values then you're deluded. Israel has no values and they have no respect for human rights what so ever, i already posted a link about discrimiation against minorities in israel and how the israeli goverment never took any serious steps to insure equality so i suggest you give a look

Plus the united states is one of the contributing factors why arab countires are so behind regarding civil and human rights, how ? The united states has forever supported totalitarian regiems in the middle east and they always used their influence to insure that they remain as rules of these countries ! I dont need to tell you about how deep the relationships are between the US and Saudi Arabia, and yet the Saudis are the worst regarding human rights ! the US supported Mubarak for more than 20 years, and if they really care about civil rights then they would have supported the revolution in egypt since day one, but instead they hesitated and never called him to step down untill he was practically out. The US supports the Qatari ruling family who host America's biggest military base in the middle east, and the same thing goes for all the gulf countries.

If they United States really supports human rights then why do they Veto any security council resolution that condemns israel's massacrs in gaza and Lebanon ? the examples are countless and if you're not aware of them then ill gladly provide a source

im expecting you to reply to this post and not ignore it like the 2 previous ones. Homosexuality is not the main discussion you know



The palestinians have elected mps into the parliament, who have full voting rights. The palestinians have freedom of speech in israel, freedom of movement and freedom to work wherever they want. They are able to conduct everything about their private lives away from the government.

i gave you a link and you didnt bother reading it. fine. this is what a 2 mins google search can get you on the subject

The UN Committee on the Elimination of Racial Discrimination in its report regarding the judical system in insrael "Differing applications of criminal law between Jews and Arabs had caused "harsher punishments for Palestinians for the same offence", "

"A high number of complaints by Arab Israelis against police officers are not properly investigated and many Arabs suffer discriminatory work practices and high unemployment"


lets look at statistics

the Arabs of Israel have seen their overwhelming majority ownership of the land pre-1948 reduced to just 2.5%, even though they make up more than 20% of Israel's population


48% of Israel's Arab citizens are dissatisfied with their lives in the Jewish state, compared to 35% in 2003... 62% of Israeli Arabs fear "transfer" (forced migration or, as it has been called, "ethnic cleansing"), compared to just 6% who expressed that fear in 2003. It is also noted that 40% of the respondents expressed their distrust of Israel's judiciary system while almost 41% supported an Arab boycott of Knesset elections

source: A survey by Prof. Sami Smooha of the University of Haifa of Israeli looking at relations and coexistence between Jews and Arabs was published by Ha'aretz newspaper in May 2010

Within the Knesset, Lieberman and his allies have introduced a number of bills that are discriminatory to the Arab population with twelve bills introduced in 2008 alone during which time Yisrael Beiteinu was not even a member of the government.33 Legislation to ban remembrance of the Nakba was first introduced earlier this year

source:http://www.thejerusalemfund.org/ht/a/GetDocumentAction/i/6677

this is just scratching the surface, but since i know you're not interested in reading something that contradicts your views ill keep it to that

but hey, you know better

Listen buddy, the goals of the united states are first to safeguard and strengthen the rights of people who already have them and then to extend it to people who dont have any and way way later it is to enable nations to collectively vote and decide their destiny. If you think any american would support a democratically elected government islamic or socialist that would surpress the rights of an individual you are deluded.

It seems like the United States do not agree. Hamas won the elections in palestine and the States refused to even talk to their goverment, a goverment that won the support of the majority of the palestinian people and came as a result of an election that the US forced. Hamas was not given a chance so the red part simply doesnt apply

Yes we are allied to saudi arabia, egypt and qatar. You know why? they are the best of the worst in a backwater. Compare how egypt treated their protesters to how libya or syria did, guess what the last two were unbelievably abusive killing machines who were not allied to the US. Just compare the numbers of deaths in libya, syria and iran when they had their revolutions to the ones in tunisia and egypt (our allies). You know why there wasn't so much deaths and the presidents eventually left? because we have some leverage and will hold them accountable.



wow, this is where your limited understanding of the middle east is most obvious. Saudi Arabia is the WORST regarding human and individual rights and its enough to know that they wont allow women to drive to know how bad they are, how about that ?

As for egypt, lets ignore the fact that the states allied itself with and supported a tyrant for more than 20 years and focus on the death toll since you brough that to the table. As you apparently dont know, the egyptian army refused to protect the egyptian eventhough the goverment gave them commands to smach the revolution. Around 850 and people died in the first few days at the hands of the police, and if it wasnt for the army a different scenario would have happened


Wait so supporting a populist movement in which 1 or 2 out of 80 million would be the right thing for civil rights? The people revolting were not organized, we did not know who they were. What if they were part of a totalarian take over that would further hurt human rights?

so how come the revolution in Libya was supported since day one ? same conditions apply but i see double standards here


Again I dont see your point with us vetoing decisions, UN democracy doesnt mean it is right. And yeah btw last time I checked the massacre of sabra was commited by LEBANESE! Many who are still in politics today. How about you campaign for justice in your country before you blame it on the jews and america

Israel kills people and the states veto's any UN condamination...who's protecting a criminal in that case ? you cant preach something and protect someone who violates it, thats called hypocracy

and if you read my posts right, i did not mention Sabra's massacare, what i mentioned though is Qana's Massacre where israel bombed a UN base that many civilians were taking refuge in and killed more than a 100 of them


but hey, you know better
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Post by MJ Wed Oct 05, 2011 4:23 pm

@Yuri Yukuv wrote:
Wait you know what the israelis did right? The israelis basically waited outside and while arabs brutally killed other arabs children men and women. They did this because their leader was assassinated and they went for bloody tribal like revenge, not one person was killed by an israeli.

Israel conducted an investigation and nothing came up about israelis killing women and children, let me ask you this though did lebanon open an investigation?

It really amazes me how back ward that part of the world is. The rulers treat their subjects so bad, muslims and christians treat each other so bad, shia and sunnis treat each other so bad, fathers treat their sons bad, mothers treat their daughters bad, men treat their wives bad. I never hear this about israelis though.


Your racism disgusts me. To clarify on the "arabs murdering their children" mess you spewed. There was an angry mob ready to wail on everyone in that camp and the Israelis let them in to do their business and basically kept look out. They were even found officially indirectly responsible.

Bee tee dubs

If you don't know what life is like in a region, don't talk about it and generalize it like you did because it makes you seem like a racist idiot and an ass. Life in Lebanon is just as free and normal as my life in the U.S. I can't believe that there are people who take a story here and there that are 30+ years old and apply them to every facet of life in "that part of the world". You really think "Lebanon" would conduct an investigation? At that time, THERE WAS NO LEBANON. WHO was gonna investigate WHAT? BTW There's no RULERS either, we have freely elected candidates because contrary to what you may believe this is not ALADDIN. The Israelis were trying to occupy Lebanon and were being brutally shredded by guerrilla warfare. They have a saying about Lebanon that Israel learned (more than once) the hard way.

"Lebanon is very easy to swallow, but impossible to digest." Trust me, they didnt learn the first time, they invaded our soil more than that, destroyed our homes, killed our children and tried to ruin our lives.

It was shreds of chaotic land torn up by an ISRAELI INVASION. Don't worry, Israelis didn't kill anyone that day, they saved their ammo to kill thousands of civilians in 2006.

It really amazes me how little homework you did before you said something so offensive and patently untrue. Shame on you, I got nothing else to say.
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Post by Yuri Yukuv Wed Oct 05, 2011 4:32 pm

@zizzle wrote: Wall of text

So you are going to bring up people's feelings and bills introduced? The american black population feels discriminated against and there have been bills introduced similar in the us as well.

its not a socialist state, the government is not responsible for ethnic discrimination in private matters. The government is not responsible for fat kids being teased, short guys not getting hot women or so on.

Did you not read what I wrote, I said I would never support a democratically elected government that infringes on peoples rights. Lets not forget hamas was the movement that started the suicide bombings which in turn evolved to september 11. They are also on our terrorist list. If the nazi party came in power through elections in england I would drive up to the white house and protest till they are boycotted, democratically elected or not.

Yes, saudi arabia does not allow women to drive but thats they say its religion and we cant do anything about that or all the muslims would go crazy. We do leverage them on many other things, more over the goverment of saudi arabia has been a great asset to us. They have never endorsed terrorism on a governmental level. Last time I checked they never killed protesters in big cities because there are no protesters as their religion does not believe in protests, they also dont criticize their government publicly because their religion says so. We cant really mess about with peoples religions.

http://ahlusunnahwaljamaah.com/2011/02/10/islamic-ruling-on-protests-demonstrations/

I dont know any details about qana , may the deceased rest in peace.

I just find it funny you would leave sabra (Which was a lot bigger and bloodier) which happened in you country by your countrymen and go after israel, then barrage the world with claims of justice.
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Post by Yuri Yukuv Wed Oct 05, 2011 4:41 pm

MJGunner wrote:
Your racism disgusts me. To clarify on the "arabs murdering their children" mess you spewed. There was an angry mob ready to wail on everyone in that camp and the Israelis let them in to do their business and basically kept look out. They were even found officially indirectly responsible.

Bee tee dubs

If you don't know what life is like in a region, don't talk about it and generalize it like you did because it makes you seem like a racist idiot and an ass. Life in Lebanon is just as free and normal as my life in the U.S. I can't believe that there are people who take a story here and there that are 30+ years old and apply them to every facet of life in "that part of the world". You really think "Lebanon" would conduct an investigation? At that time, THERE WAS NO LEBANON. WHO was gonna investigate WHAT? BTW There's no RULERS either, we have freely elected candidates because contrary to what you may believe this is not ALADDIN. The Israelis were trying to occupy Lebanon and were being brutally shredded by guerrilla warfare. They have a saying about Lebanon that Israel learned (more than once) the hard way.

"Lebanon is very easy to swallow, but impossible to digest." Trust me, they didnt learn the first time, they invaded our soil more than that, destroyed our homes, killed our children and tried to ruin our lives.

It was shreds of chaotic land torn up by an ISRAELI INVASION. Don't worry, Israelis didn't kill anyone that day, they saved their ammo to kill thousands of civilians in 2006.

It really amazes me how little homework you did before you said something so offensive and patently untrue. Shame on you, I got nothing else to say.

Last time I checked you were not responsible if you let somebody do something.

How about conducting an investigation now? If a crime is committed it is not erased by time.

Last time I checked the same families that ruled lebanon back then are the same ones doing it now, yes there is some form of elections but they are the same.

If lebanon harbors hezbollah and the PLO while they fire rockets into israel what do you expect israel to do? maybe the lebanese should stop harboring these groups.

Btw, its such low shot calling me a racist. There are maaaaany maaany arabs that have succeeded all over the world and have been a positive force on humanity, why they do it when they are outside and not in the region? Simple, the group mentality there is shockingly horrible.

The egos are humongous but the individuals are small.
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Post by Lord Spencer Wed Oct 05, 2011 5:43 pm

@Yuri Yukuv wrote:What?

3,000 to 4,000 people died in the iranian revolution which lasted a looooooooooooooooooong time btw.

Where is this supposed killing of 10,000 by saudi arabia? I cant find it

And yeah saudi arabians did fund alqaeda for a long time but that is somewhat expected its a country with free capital flows, large population and large gdp per capita compared to the region. There were some holes and the saudis begun to plug them after 2005. The goverment entity was never involved or any of the key figures (some people who worked for the government which is +90% of the population were)

Wait you know what the israelis did right? The israelis basically waited outside and while arabs brutally killed other arabs children men and women. They did this because their leader was assassinated and they went for bloody tribal like revenge, not one person was killed by an israeli.

Israel conducted an investigation and nothing came up about israelis killing women and children, let me ask you this though did lebanon open an investigation?

It really amazes me how back ward that part of the world is. The rulers treat their subjects so bad, muslims and christians treat each other so bad, shia and sunnis treat each other so bad, fathers treat their sons bad, mothers treat their daughters bad, men treat their wives bad. I never hear this about israelis though.

We know the problem isnt islam, we can just look at malaysia and singapore.

This is the regime that was fighting israel in 1967



When was the last time we saw americans or jews killing each other like its nothing?

Again, I do not want to get involved in the debate, but those are facts done from research Cornell and other universities did about the region.

However, Israel is just as backwater as the rest of the region, they just do it while pretending to be more civilized, but the whole concept of creating a whole country out of conquest is something that should have been left in the middle ages. The regions is so fraked up because despite your claim that is is financially insignificant, the oil reserves are. Which caused both the U.S. and the U.S.S.R to invest heavily in the whole mess, which created Israel, the Arabic communist movement, the gulf wars, Al-Qaeda, and all the shit you see there.

Not for a single moment should you imagine the U.S. or the U.S.S.R did anything for the good of the people there, this is politics, and they did it to further their own goals against each other.

Now the soviets are gone, the U.S. is left with this trouble filed region to try and calm.

From the colonial age til now is this region being manipulated. First to deprive the Ottoman empire of its resources, and then the Cold War.

The Saudi Government knowingly funds AL-Qaeda and will openly do so because Al-Qaeda helps their regional plans in destabilizing Pakistan, Iran, and Iraq. All countries that if stable would challenge Saudi's supremacy in the region (Israel might have the military supremacy but they sure as hell don't have the economical one). Of course, Al-Qaeda being a bunch of extremist cannot be targeted properly.

Regardless, I have been studying this for a long time now, and while it is not devoid of opinion it is based on factula information.
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Post by MJ Wed Oct 05, 2011 5:51 pm

@Yuri Yukuv wrote:
Last time I checked you were not responsible if you let somebody do something.

How about conducting an investigation now? If a crime is committed it is not erased by time.

Last time I checked the same families that ruled lebanon back then are the same ones doing it now, yes there is some form of elections but they are the same.

If lebanon harbors hezbollah and the PLO while they fire rockets into israel what do you expect israel to do? maybe the lebanese should stop harboring these groups.

Btw, its such low shot calling me a racist. There are maaaaany maaany arabs that have succeeded all over the world and have been a positive force on humanity, why they do it when they are outside and not in the region? Simple, the group mentality there is shockingly horrible.

The egos are humongous but the individuals are small.

Last I checked if you illegally invade a country then guard the perimeter of a camp of refugees who's homes you evicted them from and then allow a group of war torn mourning psychos in who have clear intent of malice, then you're pretty damn responsible. If a man started screaming at a kid behind you that he was gonna kill him, and then walked right on by you, when you had the means to stop him, and then he thrashed the kid? Your fault. There's no way around it.

You don't understand this country at all, you speak like it's just something that can be done when it's an extremely low priority compared to the goals the Lebanese are trying to achieve. We do not have a good government, that says nothing about the people. There have been plenty of outside opinions investigations etc. they all point the finger at Israel, the Lebanese people have no interest in trying to undo that as it's been beaten dead for the last 30 years that there's not much else to it.

I swear, I feel like I'm talking to a child, not because you're immature, but because the solutions you suggest are so unrealistic for Lebanon and so convenient for Israel. "Maybe Lebanon should stop harboring these groups."

I'm going to paraphrase a quote I heard concerning your naiive suggestion

"If public support is so avid towards a group who removed an illegal occupying force when the nation had no proper means to do so itself, why would they disarm? Since Israel have defied well over 200 UN resolutions and violated Lebanese sovereignty over 10,000 times, then what's to stop them from invading Lebanon again if this group is removed?"

The Lebanese army has no power of interest in removing Hezbollah, many people don't want it and no one can do it. Don't act like it's a snap.

***Correction, Hezbollah fire rockets during war time at military targets, Israel bombed civilian centers with state of the art jets. It's become part of life here to see those jets flying in our skies, you never know if something's gonna drop. Do you live your life like that? Can you tell me what the mentality of a nation should be like sitting on your computer reading about things but not living them.

You're illogical, unreasonable and ignorant.
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Post by zizzle Thu Oct 06, 2011 10:17 am

@Yuri Yukuv wrote:
So you are going to bring up people's feelings and bills introduced? The american black population feels discriminated against and there have been bills introduced similar in the us as well.

i also brought a UN repport, what do you think about that ?


@Yuri Yukuv wrote:
its not a socialist state, the government is not responsible for ethnic discrimination in private matters. The government is not responsible for fat kids being teased, short guys not getting hot women or so on.

the discrimination in the judical system is not a social matter

@Yuri Yukuv wrote:
Did you not read what I wrote, I said I would never support a democratically elected government that infringes on peoples rights. Lets not forget hamas was the movement that started the suicide bombings which in turn evolved to september 11. They are also on our terrorist list. If the nazi party came in power through elections in england I would drive up to the white house and protest till they are boycotted, democratically elected or not.

When did Hamas infringe its own people ? America wanted an election in palestine but they were not welling to accept it's result unless their own people (puppets) won ? what kind of hypocracy is that ?


@Yuri Yukuv wrote:
Yes, saudi arabia does not allow women to drive but thats they say its religion and we cant do anything about that or all the muslims would go crazy. We do leverage them on many other things, more over the goverment of saudi arabia has been a great asset to us. They have never endorsed terrorism on a governmental level. Last time I checked they never killed protesters in big cities because there are no protesters as their religion does not believe in protests, they also dont criticize their government publicly because their religion says so. We cant really mess about with peoples religions.


Please dont defend Saudi Arabia, you just make yourself look bad. Islam has nothing to do with women not allowed to drive as every other islamic country out there allows it, even the likes of iran and pakistan are miles ahead of Saudi Arabia when it comes to human rights.

And since you knowledge of Islam and Saudi Arabia is limited, let me show you some links of what really happens there

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/middleeast/saudiarabia/8806765/Saudi-Arabia-Police-open-fire-on-protesters.html
http://english.aljazeera.net/news/middleeast/2011/03/2011310185818570316.html


@Yuri Yukuv wrote:
http://ahlusunnahwaljamaah.com/2011/02/10/islamic-ruling-on-protests-demonstrations/


The fatwā assumes that the Saudi regime rules by Islām and as such, they are legitimate rulers. The reality of the matter is that the Saudi Regime is far from being a legitimate Islamic authority.

The fatwā also incorrectly associates all protests with the issue of rebellion (i.e. seeking to overthrow a Muslim ruler, usually through violence); such a linkage is neither definitive, nor causative: Many demonstrations occur that are a) not violent, and b) for causes other than the overthrow of a regime – eg seeking the rights of the people, the support of oppressed Muslims, a just rule of law, and the lawful use of the ummah’s wealth etc. However, the reality of the matter is that the regimes in the Middle East are not legitimate as they do not make Qur’an and the Sunnah the basis of their rule, and therefore seeking the change of regimes (isqat an nizam) via protests and demonstrations in the current context is perfectly valid in the Shari’ah.


@Yuri Yukuv wrote:

I dont know any details about qana , may the deceased rest in peace.

I just find it funny you would leave sabra (Which was a lot bigger and bloodier) which happened in you country by your countrymen and go after israel, then barrage the world with claims of justice.


the only reason i left Sabra out is because i wasnt the person who brought it into the discussion in the first place, but if you want my opinion...

"In 1982, an independent commission, the International Commission to enquire into reported violations of International Law by Israel during its invasion of the Lebanon....The commission's report, Israel in Lebanon, concluded that the Israeli authorities or forces were directly or indirectly responsible in the massacres and other killings that have been reported to have been carried out by Lebanese militiamen in the refugee camps of Sabra and Shatila in the Beirut area between 16 and September 18"

thats what the UN says, but hey, u know better
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Post by Senor Penguin Thu Oct 06, 2011 2:54 pm


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Post by RedOranje Thu Oct 06, 2011 8:55 pm

If you don't have anything to actually add to the discussion, please do not post in this thread. This one has lasted much longer than others because people are actually discussing topics rather than spouting off nonsense one-liners and curse words.
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Post by Ali Sat Oct 08, 2011 6:51 am

Yuri, I'm going to say this.

It's a beautiful day, perfect weather, nice bed, you wake up hungry and go have some breakfast. As soon as your done, you go and put on your clothes, you have some problem choosing which shirt to wear and if you should wear your Vans or your Nikes . You say goodbye to your mom, your father, and your sister. You go to a hot spot and see your friends from school, girlfriend, and your cousin. It's such a beautiful day and after you all have dinner with each other, you take your girlfriend to your car and just drive around for about an hour before you fall asleep.

Then you wake up.

Your in a bomb shelter because the Israelis are not giving warnings before striking down areas. You get off the cold floor and look around. You cannot see anyone because it is pitch black. You were awoken by a very loud sound (Most likely a bomb). You look for your family and only find your sister, and you remember that you were separated from your family. You are worried, hunger is affecting you and you are fatigued. You leave the shelter to see what has happened and there is smoke and debris close by. The Lebanese government cannot do anything due to external pressure from the USA but the people of Lebanon decide to stand up. The Israelis have not just destroyed the area, but they have spread mines all over the area. You proceed to leave the area despite the danger to search for your family as you still have a shred of hope of finding them.

On the way, you notice there are a number of balloons in the street, you wonder where the balloons have come from. Your little sister is excited by the balloons and you allow her to have one as it must be the only nice thing she'll have for the next week or so. As she grabs the balloon, it pops, and poisonous gas infects the air. She inhales it and falls to the floor. You must take her to the hospital but the nearest hospital is 15 minutes away and no one will stop to help. The Israelis planted the balloons. You sit over your sister and watch her as she breathes her last breath. She slowly whispers : "Tell mom and dad, that when I wake up, they better get me a toy." and with that, she passes away. Tears hit her body but you know you must leave.

Run, but you do not know where your running, the whole country is in chaos and order is non-existent. A boy with no family , who had to see his little sister murdered in front of his eyes. You don't want anyone else to suffer this fate. You see a man keeping his cool amongst all the chaos and you immediately know that he is part of the guerrilla movement. You approach him and tell him what happened to you. He takes you back to the "base", in some of the most harsh conditions imaginable, these men suffer to help stop the cruel regime of the Israelis and you decide that you must do this. You are a proud fighter and you are part of the group that took out 27% of the Israeli vehicles. At the end of the war, each country is celebrating victory but you know there is no victor in war.

You will never know what happened to your sisters body, where your parents are, if they are even still alive or abroad. The guerrilla movement pays for your school fees and gives you a place to stay. You decide that your aim in life to help protect the country against invaders and help people understand that they should not turn on each other. The propaganda brands you as a terrorist while you were the one who lost family, not the journalists.

This is the life of a guerrilla warrior, the transformation from a civilian into a warrior. I'm just showing you a little of the perspective of the guerrilla movement you want us to "kick out".
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Post by MJ Sat Oct 08, 2011 12:01 pm

That was beautiful Ali.
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Post by Ali Sat Oct 08, 2011 12:41 pm

MJGunner wrote:That was beautiful Ali.

Thanks MJ Heart
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