Palestinian state, are you with or against?

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Should the UN recognize a Palestinian state? (State why)

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Post by Lord Spencer Sat Sep 24, 2011 7:27 am

@Yuri Yukuv wrote:
@Lord Spencer wrote:
@Yuri Yukuv wrote:Guys lets not forget that israel is the only democracy in the ME and that the arabs living in israel are the only arabs in the whole ME which have the right to free speech and election. Shud we really appease palestinians when they have been launching rockets into israel and bombing themselves in bus stations?

Just some food for thought.

Democracy built on the blood of the innocent. I have been to Israel, and the divide that exist there between Western Jews and Eastern Jews is border line racist. You speak of democracy as if it easily attainable. Democracy developed over a period of 400 years. To expect that countries just 80 years out of colonial hands and from that into dictators should become democratic countries is unreasonable. Also, it is difficult to become a democratic country when you don't have enough resources.

Another point, the Arab world is steadily improving. Out of this cesspool of revolutions and economic downturns, something good will happen.

And yet you argued with me before that the GCC countries are of a different situation and don't need that luxury.
And you are providing false facts. Both in Lebanon and Iraq is freedom of speech maintained and elections are held.
The situation is improving in Egypt.


Why should we then support Israel who have been shooting white phosphorus missiles (an illegal weapon) into civilian areas, and have been condemned by 20 UN resolutions of human rights infringement. The death toll speaks of everything really, it is not even comparable.

I really love how you conveniently ignore the war crimes Israel committed and continues to commit. I am not supporting terrorism here, and I Hamas is doing it wrong. However, there is a fine line between terrorism and patriotism.Or is it perfectly acceptable for Israel to break weapon rules and staunchly kill civilians while it is not acceptable in the other end. You are showing double standards that are laughable.

Personally I dont care at all about palestinians or israelis, they make political noise but them and all the countries directly around them are economically insignificant.

There is no freedom of speech in either lebanon or iraq, lets be serious here. Can you go out to the main square in either towns and tell people that there is no god? can you go on tv and declare that you are gay? can you even go out to the middle of the street and say that you want to have peaceful relationships with israel? Lets all be serious here there is nothing remotely close to democracy or free speech in arab countries. Whereas this could all be easily done in tel aviv or on israeli tv.

I am not saying that appeasement would be done by israelis towards palestinians but from americans towards palestinians, we would essentially be rewarding them for their violence. They should be on the negotiation tables like they promised us back in camp david. There would never be peace.

Personally I couldnt care less about both sides but I would miss the cute IDF girls we got pics of every couple of years on GQ or sportsillustrated



Palestinian state, are you with or against? - Page 2 Bar-refaeli-45a

Gay rights have only been recognized properly in the U.S. a few days ago. Till then, gays could not serve in the military. And all these right movements happened while the Arab world was under severe problems. The first corner for freedom of speech is political freedom and that does exist in the countries mentioned.If you go and preach at any backwater town in America about the non-existance of God, you will be most probably beaten too.


Also, Israel is a very traditional community and any person that goes from Israel and goes against the norm would be attacked, and such is the case in any country.



And Israel should respect their
territorial boundaries and stop expanding their settlements. Violence have been done by both parties and more so by Israel, the Americans should not appease them for their violence as well.

Also, I disagree on the economic significance of the countries around Israel. Egypt has much potential, and Iraq as well.

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Post by Yuri Yukuv Sat Sep 24, 2011 10:23 am

If you go to texas and feel your safety is under threat because of freedom of speech in public you will be escorted by the police while you preach your words.

Here is police protecting neo-nazi



There is no political freedom either, the goverment wont let you have a pro-israel rally in iraq, egypt or lebanon. These governments wont let you change religion. In two of those countries there was a recent civil war or at least sizable friction between ethnicities. While the third is ruled by a military council.

And no matter what you want to believe all countries surrounding israel directly as well as israel itself are worthless economically.
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Post by Ali Sat Sep 24, 2011 10:27 am

@Yuri Yukuv wrote:
@Lord Spencer wrote:
@Yuri Yukuv wrote:Guys lets not forget that israel is the only democracy in the ME and that the arabs living in israel are the only arabs in the whole ME which have the right to free speech and election. Shud we really appease palestinians when they have been launching rockets into israel and bombing themselves in bus stations?

Just some food for thought.

Democracy built on the blood of the innocent. I have been to Israel, and the divide that exist there between Western Jews and Eastern Jews is border line racist. You speak of democracy as if it easily attainable. Democracy developed over a period of 400 years. To expect that countries just 80 years out of colonial hands and from that into dictators should become democratic countries is unreasonable. Also, it is difficult to become a democratic country when you don't have enough resources.

Another point, the Arab world is steadily improving. Out of this cesspool of revolutions and economic downturns, something good will happen.

And yet you argued with me before that the GCC countries are of a different situation and don't need that luxury.
And you are providing false facts. Both in Lebanon and Iraq is freedom of speech maintained and elections are held.
The situation is improving in Egypt.


Why should we then support Israel who have been shooting white phosphorus missiles (an illegal weapon) into civilian areas, and have been condemned by 20 UN resolutions of human rights infringement. The death toll speaks of everything really, it is not even comparable.

I really love how you conveniently ignore the war crimes Israel committed and continues to commit. I am not supporting terrorism here, and I Hamas is doing it wrong. However, there is a fine line between terrorism and patriotism.Or is it perfectly acceptable for Israel to break weapon rules and staunchly kill civilians while it is not acceptable in the other end. You are showing double standards that are laughable.

Personally I dont care at all about palestinians or israelis, they make political noise but them and all the countries directly around them are economically insignificant.

There is no freedom of speech in either lebanon or iraq, lets be serious here. Can you go out to the main square in either towns and tell people that there is no god? can you go on tv and declare that you are gay? can you even go out to the middle of the street and say that you want to have peaceful relationships with israel? Lets all be serious here there is nothing remotely close to democracy or free speech in arab countries. Whereas this could all be easily done in tel aviv or on israeli tv.

lmfaoo, you know nothing about what your talking about , my God, the freedom of speech in Lebanon is immense, you constantly see non-believers, gay men, there are beaches strictly for gay people , yeah we don't want peaceful releationships with Israel but it was proposed , but we don't WANT it. SMH LOL

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Post by Yuri Yukuv Sat Sep 24, 2011 10:39 am

So you are seriously telling me you can go to downtown beirut and tell people there is no god?

Can you go to center of beirut and openly preach that jaja and nasrallah shud be brought to trial and executed?

If you become an atheist or a buddhist can you run for office? Im pretty sure you cant as the positions are allotted according to religion.


Schindler's list is banned in lebanon for gods sake for cultivating sympathy to jews.

Your pm was murdered because he talked too much, many more followed from the parliment I think it was 14 over two months. The assailants are now in power.

The palestinians live in apartheid where they cant own land, cant leave their camps without much trouble and live in much worse conditions than the rest of the country.

Women cannot give lebanese nationality to her offspring.
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Post by boss Sat Sep 24, 2011 10:59 am

@Palestinians..U have my support 100% ..Good LUcK Wink ...(i'm not against Israelians absolutely) I'm just HONEST...Palestina & Israel are 2 different countries...and clearly both of the countries deserves 2be Recognized ! PEACE

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Post by Zealous Sat Sep 24, 2011 11:16 am

Wonder how long it will take Israel to put Palestinians in concentration camps....

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Post by Sushi Master Sat Sep 24, 2011 1:11 pm

@Lord Spencer wrote:
@Sushi Master wrote:
@Lord Spencer wrote:
@Yuri Yukuv wrote:I wouldnt call it really theirs, the palestinian live on what most resembles the natives reserves in the US. Israel still deals with all the borders and so on.

So them living there and owning 90% of the land before the U.N. decided to create Israel suddenly makes it ok for them to be in reserves. So owning a house does not make it yours if you were kicked out of it by random invaders, need to make note of that somewhere. Sure, invaders kicked people around all the time in History, but we are in the modern world now, and I would like to think we came a long way towards a collective human cause.

Having said that, Palestine needs to become a country based on U.N. funding since the U.N were responsible for their collective frak up. Palestine, or what land is given to Palestine are in really useless territory. And with technology being so backward because of the war, they would become dependent on aid for a long time.

Or the U.S. can give them some aid the same amount they are giving to Israel. The taxes they are paying towards the ME is ridicilous.

The money given to Israel, Egypt, Jordan, and other states in the ME is of no benefit to the people of united states.
Isn't Israel the only supposed true American "ally" in the ME region with a nuclear deterrent available?

Yes, but the U.S. have been paying other countries to lay off Israel as well. As for Israel being an ally, what a joke that is. An "ally" is someone that can help you, Israel helps the U.S in no way. They have no resources, they have no technological advancement they can share.

The U.S. likes to think that they need an ally "like them" in the ME, but the GCC countries are much more useful and cost effective than Israel. Qatar has the biggest U.S. base in the world (outside the U.S.). All in all, Israel is a pretty useless friend to have.

Its like that friend who always borrows money, embarrasses you in front of other people, cause trouble and asks you to bail him out. And then when you tell him to cool it down with his antics, he only increases them.
I know, that's why I put "ally" in quotation marks. They are terrible. My point is that they have no choice but to back them, because nukes rule all and they have to safeguard them. If Iran ever develops a nuclear program, they'll have a nuclear power nearby to act as a deterrent. Nukes have not been in any other NATO country since the last ones were dismantled in Turkey.

At least, that's the only sane reason I see for that alliance to still be working, apart to be seen as rooting for the "underdog" against the big "Arab Menace".

Although that's not the case anymore, with Israel's international reputation being at an all time low.
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Post by Lord Spencer Sat Sep 24, 2011 1:52 pm

@Yuri Yukuv wrote:If you go to texas and feel your safety is under threat because of freedom of speech in public you will be escorted by the police while you preach your words.

Here is police protecting neo-nazi



There is no political freedom either, the goverment wont let you have a pro-israel rally in iraq, egypt or lebanon. These governments wont let you change religion. In two of those countries there was a recent civil war or at least sizable friction between ethnicities. While the third is ruled by a military council.

And no matter what you want to believe all countries surrounding israel directly as well as israel itself are worthless economically.

But the political freedom you talk about is unreal, you can't start an Islamic party in the U.S and expect to win anything, the Mosque which was not even near ground zero was slandered for months for crying out loud. I can't see the purpose for a pro-israel party in Iraq where it will not do any good.

If by freedom of speech, you mean the right of extremists to exist and preach their extremist ideology, regardless of the ideology then that is an abuse in the freedom of speech. You showed me a video of neo-nazi being protected by police escorts.

Jon Stewart showed a video of a pro Obama women being curb stomped by tea party people.

Also, your response for Ali shows a lack of political knowledge of the situation. I worked in the U.S. as a political analyst, and you will find no single analyst believing the assassination of PM Hariri an inside job, but they will not tell the media otherwise, because then they will lose their jobs.

The U.S. had a civil war, France had a civil war, Europe needed to world wars. All these freedom's that get increasingly luxurious are not to be expected to be adopted immediately by fledgling countries, to think so is both historically and politically stupid. And all of this is increasingly funny, when you have no problem with the GCC countries despite them having even worse "freedom of speech".


Anyway, I am done with this conversation, as it is not worth it debating over the internet with someone who already has formed opinions. I don't see you debating, but rather stating your opinion without expecting your opinion to be changed, it is more like you are talking to children instead of learned people. Anyway, it is a continuation of the trend that everyone here seems to have, a sense that one's own opinions are without a doubt correct. I respect your opinions, and I will no longer respond to the topic.
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Post by Yuri Yukuv Sat Sep 24, 2011 2:01 pm

Ive already said this, I dont really for the israeli palestinian conflict but you guys shudnt live in a bubble where everyone agrees with you. You have hizbullah, syria and iran as the major influences in "super democratic" lebanon while you have the muslim brotherhood as the main political party in egypt and leaders of genocide death squads at the helm of power in iraq. You simply cannot pass them off as being equal in rights and democracy as israel.

For all I care that area of the world is just some unstable backwater that lives off aid and worker remittances (including israel).What happens there matters 0% economically thats why the news there is never covered by cnb or bloomberg.
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Post by Senor Penguin Sat Sep 24, 2011 2:51 pm

I'm pretty much for it but I'm against the idea of segregation. This is a type of segregation.

However, I'm definitely against the way Israel was established and the way many Israeli leaders have established segregation between the Palestinians and Israelites.

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Post by milanfan7 Sat Sep 24, 2011 10:03 pm

@ yuri:

http://www.nowlebanon.com/NewsArchiveDetails.aspx?ID=81261

Now gtfo and don't talk about shit you don't know about.
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Post by Dj.complain.alot Tue Sep 27, 2011 12:09 am

someone robe your house

how u feel?

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Post by Sushi Master Tue Sep 27, 2011 2:23 am

Depends on how pimp those robes are.
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Post by Yuri Yukuv Tue Sep 27, 2011 7:24 pm

@Milanfan7 wrote:@ yuri:

http://www.nowlebanon.com/NewsArchiveDetails.aspx?ID=81261

Now gtfo and don't talk about shit you don't know about.

"homosexuality is still technically illegal and punishable under Lebanese law"

"a recent incident of anti-gay violence in Achrafieh, in which two men allegedly engaging in sexual conduct in the entrance of a building were dragged out onto nearby Sassine Square and severely beaten."
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Post by zizzle Tue Sep 27, 2011 8:01 pm

@Yuri Yukuv wrote:
@Milanfan7 wrote:@ yuri:

http://www.nowlebanon.com/NewsArchiveDetails.aspx?ID=81261

Now gtfo and don't talk about shit you don't know about.

"homosexuality is still technically illegal and punishable under Lebanese law"

"a recent incident of anti-gay violence in Achrafieh, in which two men allegedly engaging in sexual conduct in the entrance of a building were dragged out onto nearby Sassine Square and severely beaten."


so homosexuality = democracy ?


read this http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethnic_discrimination_in_Israel
it should tell you all about this "democratic state"
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Post by MJ Tue Sep 27, 2011 8:18 pm

The fact that this is a debate is disgusting. Israel is a terrorist state by default because of the manner in which it was birthed. Books have been written about the irony of it's creation, the cruelty and abuse the Palestinians have suffered and the hypocrites any nation is made into by supporting it's existence as they continuously defy the UN and basic morals.
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Post by MJ Tue Sep 27, 2011 8:20 pm

@Yuri Yukuv wrote:
@Milanfan7 wrote:@ yuri:

http://www.nowlebanon.com/NewsArchiveDetails.aspx?ID=81261

Now gtfo and don't talk about shit you don't know about.

"homosexuality is still technically illegal and punishable under Lebanese law"

"a recent incident of anti-gay violence in Achrafieh, in which two men allegedly engaging in sexual conduct in the entrance of a building were dragged out onto nearby Sassine Square and severely beaten."


lol democracy allows such laws to be passed, if the people didn't want it, it wouldn't have been made. DEMOCRACY DOES NOT EQUAL HUMAN RIGHTS. Get off your high horse. Israel is the greatest violator of Human Rights, UN and moral law.
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Post by Yuri Yukuv Tue Sep 27, 2011 8:56 pm

No way! I never knew that!

Human rights and the rule of law are the aim, democracy is just a vehicle.

Government has no right to tell you what to do and what not to do in your private life.
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Post by zizzle Tue Sep 27, 2011 9:02 pm

@Yuri Yukuv wrote:No way! I never knew that!

Human rights and the rule of law are the aim, democracy is just a vehicle.

Government has no right to tell you what to do and what not to do in your private life.

so what is your point ? you support israel because its "democratic" and yet you cant disagree that israel violates human rights ? if democracy is a vehicle to achieve the rule of low then your logic regarding israel is flawed.
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Post by MJ Tue Sep 27, 2011 9:04 pm

@Yuri Yukuv wrote:No way! I never knew that!

Human rights and the rule of law are the aim, democracy is just a vehicle.

Government has no right to tell you what to do and what not to do in your private life.

Unless you let them. Seriously do you not get it? Democracy means the people choose, to be free or be abused. It's their vehicle, don't try to tell them the destination because democracy has proved that it doesn't friggin work everywhere and when it's applied and results that are undesired to the applier arise then it's shut down (Palestine electing Hamas, whats his face in Chile, Hugo Chavez)

Just look at Israel, "democracy" yet they are the greatest violators of human rights in the world, some vehicle.
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Post by Ali Wed Sep 28, 2011 3:35 pm

Sorry everyone Yuri is totally right, because a Buddhist is the president of the US and a Jew is the president of China, and he knows more about my people then me, I'm so sorry I even TRIED debating.

Also if two people were "engaging in sexual activities" in my lobby I'd mess em up too

AND, your acting like theres no political influence EVERYWHERE IN THE *bleep* WORLD?
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Post by Lord Spencer Wed Sep 28, 2011 4:35 pm

The fact that Obama had to deny he is a Muslim 48595 times is really telling on the whole myth that is freedom. You are as free as your society lets you.

In the privacy of one's own home, it is a different domain. But do Palestinians know about that, they don't have homes Palestinian state, are you with or against? - Page 2 2859867778
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Post by magpie Wed Sep 28, 2011 4:47 pm

MJ, I think you are confusing Constitutional Democracy for Rule by the Majority. Just because a majority says it is right does not make it right, that is why there are laws that prevent the discrimination and the such.
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Post by MJ Wed Sep 28, 2011 7:21 pm

Democracy is the rule of the majority, a form of government in which the supreme power is vested in the people and exercised by them. In Democracy, if the majority approve it to be the law they want. It's not about right or wrong, or morality and immorality. It's about the people exercising the right to distinguish the two.

"a recent incident of anti-gay violence in Achrafieh, in which two men allegedly engaging in sexual conduct in the entrance of a building were dragged out onto nearby Sassine Square and severely beaten."

This report doesn't prove that homosexuality is illegal in Lebanon, it proves that if you're in the Middle East and you're trying to screw in public regardless of who it's with, you're gonna get mauled. Are you telling me that any right minded person wouldn't kick someones ass if they were trespassing on their property (strike one) having sex in public (strike two) and doing it with a man which is something that many people don't want anything to do with in Lebanon (strike three)

You're bogus man.
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Post by Yuri Yukuv Wed Sep 28, 2011 10:38 pm

ali8775 wrote:Sorry everyone Yuri is totally right, because a Buddhist is the president of the US and a Jew is the president of China, and he knows more about my people then me, I'm so sorry I even TRIED debating.

Also if two people were "engaging in sexual activities" in my lobby I'd mess em up too

AND, your acting like theres no political influence EVERYWHERE IN THE *bleep* WORLD?

Yeah you know your own country just like this guy



MJGunner wrote:Democracy is the rule of the majority, a form of government in which the supreme power is vested in the people and exercised by them. In Democracy, if the majority approve it to be the law they want. It's not about right or wrong, or morality and immorality. It's about the people exercising the right to distinguish the two.

"a recent incident of anti-gay violence in Achrafieh, in which two men allegedly engaging in sexual conduct in the entrance of a building were dragged out onto nearby Sassine Square and severely beaten."

This report doesn't prove that homosexuality is illegal in Lebanon, it proves that if you're in the Middle East and you're trying to screw in public regardless of who it's with, you're gonna get mauled. Are you telling me that any right minded person wouldn't kick someones ass if they were trespassing on their property (strike one) having sex in public (strike two) and doing it with a man which is something that many people don't want anything to do with in Lebanon (strike three)

You're bogus man.

So your society is used to beating up people for doing anything?

Nice to know, nicer to know that you support this.

Look buddy, liberal systems in the west are made to protect individual rights and personal property rights (capitalism). Democracy is just the optimum way to express those rights when things have to be collective, which should stay at a bare minimum. Your logic means that a democracy can vote to exterminate a minority, it can vote infringe on personal freedom or even vote that it is ok for men to rape women when they are not so prudent with what they wear.

Ill say this again I am not with israel or palestine, but arabs have to get a grip they will never get support of the united states as long as israel stands for occidental values in the midst of anti-western countries. Forget about it, it will never happen. Most people in the states would support israel state against arabs because they would see it as a cutting off a threat to their individual rights in general and their personal rights in extension. Personally I dont agree, not because I think most arab countries are against individual capitalistic rights but because I dont see them as a threat.

Without the US and europe/japan it is impossible to get a palestinian state. The GDP of arab countries is like 5% of the whole world, if we remove oil exports which are not part of the domestic economy but rather an extension of other countries domestic economies we reach something like 2% or 3% max. Thats laughable.


Last edited by Yuri Yukuv on Thu Sep 29, 2011 12:29 am; edited 1 time in total
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Post by Yuri Yukuv Wed Sep 28, 2011 10:54 pm

@Lord Spencer wrote:The fact that Obama had to deny he is a Muslim 48595 times is really telling on the whole myth that is freedom. You are as free as your society lets you.

In the privacy of one's own home, it is a different domain. But do Palestinians know about that, they don't have homes Palestinian state, are you with or against? - Page 2 2859867778

Wait so its not the right of people to ask what the religion of their president is?

Barrack Hussein Obama, the son of a muslim african immigrant father and a white christian mother is the president of our country. I really dont see how you can twist this against the country.
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