Palestinian state, are you with or against?

Fully support. To be honest, I don't really see how any reasonable person could be against it. Especially those people that actually know what's going on there.

ali8775 wrote:Yuri, I'm going to say this.

Wall of text

you mean these promotional balloons that hizbullah used to spread propaganda?

http://www.haaretz.com/news/balloons-released-in-israeli-promotion-sow-panic-in-south-lebanon-1.211234

You cant make this stuff up

[quote="Lord Spencer"]

Yuri Yukuv wrote:
Wall of text

Here is the wiki page about the causalities of the iranian revolution, I know its wiki but I am not gonna pay money to show you the info

you know that israelis invented the usb drive and voicemail dont you?

When did the saudi goverment fund al qaeda? not anytime in the past 15 years

zizzle wrote:wall of text

wait did I say islam? I said their religion ,saudi arabia and its people follow strict salafists sect. Just like evangelicals and amish here. They are more puritanical. I went to work in saudi arabia and most people there are very obedient to their rulers and believe its part of their religion not to be divided. How can we possibly say something when the general populous believes that and are backed with fatwas by their clerics? There is non-existant saudi opposition inside the country and outside.

baresi wrote:
That is soooo wrong. You can easily do it in many arab countries.

Not really, you cant change your religion to anything but muslim in most arab countries and you cant even have a civil marriage in any arab country.

baresi wrote:
By that they have done a great good deal for Palestinians, if Palestininans in Lebanon were given the lebanese nationallity they wont be able to ask to go back to the homes, since Lebanon would become their home, they would lose all rights of asking for what is theirs in Palestine, just like 4M+ Palesitians in Jordan, can ask for their lands, and when/if a palestanian state exists wont be able to move back to it.

So do the palestinians really wanna go back or are you making their life hell so they would have to go back using any means necessary (including violence?)

baresi wrote:As for the free of speech was Al-Jazeera finally licenced to operate in the US?

You dont need a license to operate in the united states, most local cable networks did not want to carry aljazeera though because they felt it would be offensive to its viewers

baresi wrote:
What is democracy all about? To let ppl chooce what they want, are the muslim brotherhood forcing ppl to join??? I beleive they are a bit extreamists btw, just saying....

No, a democratic republic is about safeguarding the individual and capitalistic rights of man first and then the collective choice by the people as a whole.

baresi wrote:
Just five words into that paragraph and I can easily label it as BS, if it is such a democratic country that fights for humna rights, whay are those still called Palestinians? Dont the hold Israeli paasport?

We call them palestinians in our conversation but legally under the law they are israelis

baresi wrote:@Yuri
Can you please tell us about the "USA PATRIOT ACT"

The biggest farce since watergate, it makes me cringe every time.

baresi wrote:My Last Post, but some good foot for thoughts Yuri:

Wall of text

I dont know the details but the jews were fighting to establish their state amidst arabs who were hungry for their blood, lets not pretend the arabs did not kill civilians in that war

Yuri Yukuv wrote:

ali8775 wrote:Yuri, I'm going to say this.

Wall of text

you mean these promotional balloons that hizbullah used to spread propaganda?

http://www.haaretz.com/news/balloons-released-in-israeli-promotion-sow-panic-in-south-lebanon-1.211234

You cant make this stuff up

Defending Israel providing a Israeli source...

Milanfan7 wrote:

Yuri Yukuv wrote:

ali8775 wrote:Yuri, I'm going to say this.

Wall of text

you mean these promotional balloons that hizbullah used to spread propaganda?

http://www.haaretz.com/news/balloons-released-in-israeli-promotion-sow-panic-in-south-lebanon-1.211234

You cant make this stuff up

Defending Israel providing a Israeli source...

There is only two sources on the story almanar and haartez, I know which one has more credibility (even though its only marginal)

@ Yuri

Not really, you cant change your religion to anything but muslim in most arab countries and you cant even have a civil marriage in any arab country.

There are many Arab countries, I was pointing out to the ones you mentioned, as far as I know, MANY arab countries you can change your religion to whatever you want as much as you want.

So do the palestinians really wanna go back or are you making their life hell so they would have to go back using any means necessary (including violence?)

I dont get you, but incase you misuderstood what I said, I was pointing out to the Palestinians in Lebanon, if they are given the Lebanese nationality then the chances to move back to their country would be slim, they would lose a great deal of their case, as they are now they can keep on asking to go back to their country since the logical thinking is everyone should have an Identiy, and a nationality, no one mention violence.

No, a democratic republic is about safeguarding the individual and capitalistic rights of man first and then the collective choice by the people as a whole.

And how exactly does the muslim brotherhood being the largest party, violate any of this?

We call them palestinians in our conversation but legally under the law they are israelis

Just like calling the blacks, the N word????

The biggest farce since watergate, it makes me cringe every time.

So we should expect privacy violations and limitations in all part of the world, its not just the Arab world.

I dont know the details but the jews were fighting to establish their state amidst arabs who were hungry for their blood, lets not pretend the arabs did not kill civilians in that war

lol, fighting to establish their state???? So we can all agree that Israel was built by murdering children, women and elderly, some state taht is. Give me one incident where arabs killed civilians.

This thread is almost useless since every reasonable person here is under agreement while Yuri is responding [poorly] to selected points rather than accept that he's wrong about a lot of what he was spewing.

Your inaccuracies and generalizations are offensive and "laughable".

MJGunner wrote:Go for it. Keep showing Yuri what's what.

Please ppl note this is not the full list, nor does it include massacres during any one sided war.
Lebanon:

1) Salha mosque in 1948, it is small town that over looks bint jbail, ppl where gathered by the mosque and fired from behind.

2) Hola in 1949, 90 ppl killed mostly kids and women.

3) Hola II, in 1967 5 women killed for fun.

4) Haneen 26.11.67
The town was surounded for three months, and then soldiers entered and cut off the heads by axes, later they destroyed the entire town and on;y one ROOM was left standing, that room still exists till today.

5) Airton I (3eerton) 17.5.75
9 children killed for no reason

6) Airton II (3eerton) 1989
three brothers all kids where taken by the soldiers and later found killed by the side road.

7) Bint Jbail 1976
Israel army, bomb the busiest market (thursday market) 23 killed, 30 injured.

Rashia 1978
Church bobed killing 15

9) konain (close to bnt jbail) 1978
29 KIDS, where gathered and killed.

10) Al-Abasia.
Mosque bombed and 112 killed.

11) Bir Al-abd. 1985
75 killed.

12) Ikleem Al-Tofaa'h 12.9.85
30 killed and 100s injured.

13) Kana 18.04.84
105 Killed, 33 where children, ppl where in UN buildings, and the Israeli army bombed those buildings.

This should be enough.

@Yuri, your description of Saudi Arabia is hugely general and false.

According to Wikileaks, and information from Turkey bin Faisal Al-Saud, The Saudi Government still fund Al-Qaeda. Prince Faisal claims its done through "loopholes" in the system and that they are trying to "stop" them. Don't talk about what you don't know.

And the number of victims of Arabs to Israeili's is close to 50 to one, so don't go around pretending its an even war. The only reason they have not killed more is because they kicked them out of their country.
At first, it was as if you had a point, but the fact of it that you are just repeating some nonsense you heard and the believed. This stupid discussion have long expired, while you are at it, why don't you defend Ghadaffi and the Congo. I am sure you will find good reason for the Congo government to use Rape as a weapon of war.

Yuri for *bleep* sake we were in LEBANON AT THE TIME OF THE INCIDENT, stop googling your *bleep* dick off and listen to us really, you are one of the most ignorant people I'v met full stop.

To build on that note. That article did nothing to prove or disprove the validity of the balloons being lethal. It merely reiterated what the Lebanese government said and had ignorant comments by unfazed people.

Yuri Yukuv wrote:

ali8775 wrote:Yuri, I'm going to say this.

Wall of text

you mean these promotional balloons that hizbullah used to spread propaganda?

http://www.haaretz.com/news/balloons-released-in-israeli-promotion-sow-panic-in-south-lebanon-1.211234

You cant make this stuff up

OT: Why is there an islamophobic nutjob in your signature? And what is he carrying?

Lord Spencer wrote:@Yuri, your description of Saudi Arabia is hugely general and false.

According to Wikileaks, and information from Turkey bin Faisal Al-Saud, The Saudi Government still fund Al-Qaeda. Prince Faisal claims its done through "loopholes" in the system and that they are trying to "stop" them. Don't talk about what you don't know.

And the number of victims of Arabs to Israeili's is close to 50 to one, so don't go around pretending its an even war. The only reason they have not killed more is because they kicked them out of their country.
At first, it was as if you had a point, but the fact of it that you are just repeating some nonsense you heard and the believed. This stupid discussion have long expired, while you are at it, why don't you defend Ghadaffi and the Congo. I am sure you will find good reason for the Congo government to use Rape as a weapon of war.

You are seriously comparing ghaddafi and congo to america and israel? Dont you know who yasser arafat and abu nidal are? Have you not heard of munich massacre? have you not heard of suicide bombings? have you not seen videos of all the hijacked planes in the 70s?

Anyways where is your source for the wikileaks cable?

MJGunner wrote:This thread is almost useless since every reasonable person here is under agreement while Yuri is responding [poorly] to selected points rather than accept that he's wrong about a lot of what he was spewing.

Your inaccuracies and generalizations are offensive and "laughable".

Actually its more like its me vs 10 arabs

ali8775 wrote:Yuri for *bleep* sake we were in LEBANON AT THE TIME OF THE INCIDENT, stop googling your *bleep* dick off and listen to us really, you are one of the most ignorant people I'v met full stop.

So you saw on Almanar tv and I saw it on the internet? whats the big difference? Its not like you actually had one of those baloons and you examined them. Hizbullah said they gave the balloons to the italians for investigation but I cant find one non-middle eastern source on the story. Too bad the lebanese are not strong enough to face the destructive powers in their own country





Here are your buddies calling for the islamic conquest of israel using a little girl to preach blood and war

Senor Penguin wrote:

Yuri Yukuv wrote:

ali8775 wrote:Yuri, I'm going to say this.

Wall of text

you mean these promotional balloons that hizbullah used to spread propaganda?

http://www.haaretz.com/news/balloons-released-in-israeli-promotion-sow-panic-in-south-lebanon-1.211234

You cant make this stuff up

OT: Why is there an islamophobic nutjob in your signature? And what is he carrying?

I like the picture, he is holding a drachma and taking it to the european parliament :lol!:

I'm pretty sure not everyone here is Arab. But way to make the assumption because no one is siding with this travesty of a debate you're trying to keep alive.

You consistently try to belittle ALL Arab countries and don't even analyze their conditions or situations before doing so. You've called Lebanon weak and the Arab community's contribution to the global GDP laughable and repeatedly stated that it was impossible to change religions [lie] and that the Lebanese people wanted Hezbollah out [lie] and painted this great stroke of injustice by vaguely calling Arab governments "rulers". If you're actually from Macedonia, I'm not gonna stoop to your level to tell you how ironic that is.


You're seriously expecting peace from people who have had their homes taken from them by means of blood and violence? I don't think you can fathom the hate and anger and heartbreak they feel and therefore you'll never understand the situation.

MJGunner wrote:I'm pretty sure not everyone here is Arab. But way to make the assumption because no one is siding with this travesty of a debate you're trying to keep alive.

You consistently try to belittle ALL Arab countries and don't even analyze their conditions or situations before doing so. You've called Lebanon weak and the Arab community's contribution to the global GDP laughable and repeatedly stated that it was impossible to change religions [lie] and that the Lebanese people wanted Hezbollah out [lie] and painted this great stroke of injustice by vaguely calling Arab governments "rulers". If you're actually from Macedonia, I'm not gonna stoop to your level to tell you how ironic that is.


You're seriously expecting peace from people who have had their homes taken from them by means of blood and violence? I don't think you can fathom the hate and anger and heartbreak they feel and therefore you'll never understand the situation.

I am not from macedonia first off, I have russian parents, I grew up in california, went to school in boston and now work out of an office in london, basically I move east.

Yes its impossible to change religions in most arab countries, it would cause big unrest. You could probably become muslim if were christian, or go between muslim sects but you cant convert to christianity from islam or any other religion without severe prosecution and losing some rights. There is also no civil marriage in any arab country.

I dont know if most lebanese would want to be against hezbollah but it would be very hard for any lebanese to go against them and require them to disarm. Just look at what happened to their opposition in beirut



and yes the middle east and lebanon are weak countries because they keep trying to throw their problems on others as they cant face the social and political forces (Which are destructive) in their homes. However I have always maintained that most arabs are brilliant individually actually, when you displace them a bit from their environment they suddenly become sober, creative and pleasant people. I dont need to bring up examples because there are too much, I can personally vouch for that from personal experience.

PS: I believe all collectivism and big government is bad, not just in the middle east. I am just telling it to you like it is and not like many others who would say "those people are from a different culture they would never understand" I know that everyone inside naturally wants all his individual freedoms however there are major societal pressures to not do so, I would really like to see more arabs standing up for themselves in their lives and doing what they really want to do. I know they dont want to live under severely patriarchal (some religiously conservative, some not) and us vs them mentality.

Yuri,in the video above it's the saad el hariri guys beating up the hizbollah guys in tareek el jdide,the place where this university is located.

What you don't know, and instead, assume is killing this thread. You will never understand it here. You don't live it everyday, you don't know it like we do. I can't believe you're this irrational. Your own media source is biased Western Media. All I have to do is look outside or grab a newspaper!

Hezbollah is not some big bad wolf occupying Lebanon and corrupting the people. In the 80s Israel was occupying Lebanon and waging war on the PLO, Syria and any who opposed them. As well as evicting the Palestinians from their homes, they decided to try and destroy ours by using it as a battlefield. There were always guerrillas making hit and run attacks on Israeli patrols, bases etc. But none were as organized and supported as Hezbollah, that's when Israel was finally pushed out by one force. After that, other groups were able to gain power because the lack of an occupant in Lebanon, then all the division arose, and thus the tension. Some groups wanted to cooperate with Israel and the U.S. and basically appease the two human rights abusers. Kinda like Stockholm Syndrome.

Hezbollah refused this idea and wanted to continue the fight to liberate Palestine. If you consider this religious extremism, then I think you're misguided but it is what it is.

Yuri Yukuv wrote:
Yes its impossible to change religions in most arab countries, it would cause big unrest. You could probably become muslim if were christian, or go between muslim sects but you cant convert to christianity from islam or any other religion without severe prosecution and losing some rights. There is also no civil marriage in any arab country.

Very eloquently put, however that is severely erroneous. I know countless people in Lebanon who convert to and fro, receiving no punishment and causing no "big unrest" I think the unrest you're speaking of stems from when a part tries to change sects which disrupts Lebanon's fragile balance of power between groups. It's not that people aren't allowed to believe what they want. Imagine if 100,000 Sinais suddenly said they were Maronite, suddenly and inexplicably, the Maronites are significantly more powerful. Here, it's a looooot less about beliefs and more about your sect and family since most people here don't convert or even consider it.

Yuri Yukuv wrote: However I have always maintained that most arabs are brilliant individually actually, when you displace them a bit from their environment they suddenly become sober, creative and pleasant people. I dont need to bring up examples because there are too much, I can personally vouch for that from personal experience.

That's something else I noticed about you. You draw a lot of your arguments from "personal experience" and your opinions which are illegitimate in a serious debate or discussion. You used your alleged experience in Saudi Arabia to generalize the whole people.

Basically, I want to ask you to use more facts, admit when you're wrong, and for the love of all things holy, stop pretending you know more about this subject than us who live it.

Ok you guys have a monopoly on knowledge, no one giving an outside view can say judge you or talk about the mechanisms of your society even if they have been in your countries. There is no need for any type of discussion as I am a bigot and everything is perfect, why talk? If it aint broke why fix it? and there is def nothing broke in the arab world. In fact arab individuals are the most empowered, happy and strong individuals around the world.

Btw today two "democratic" arab countries have opposed suspending syria's membership in the arab league if it doesnt stop brutally killing its protesters (Lebanon and Iraq)

hezbollah, iranian mullahs, egyptian national party, saudi clerics, syrian baathists, muslim brotherhood, phalange are all not collective oppressive groups that are trying to attack your liberties and rights. In fact respectively each of these groups you each belong to are trying to protect you from the evil imperialist americans/israelis and extremist terrorist muslims, they know what is best for you and everyone who says otherwise is ignorant. None of these groups would ever hurt any follower or foe for speaking their mind either, unless you have a contagious mental sickness that will spread to the rest of the sheeple then they shoot you.

Oh and long live lebanon, the most tolerant place on earth where there is no abuse of power, no civil wars, no political parties based on religion, no allotment of office based on religion and a country that is champion of human rights and democracy everywhere in the world (including syria)

Yuri Yukuv wrote:

baresi wrote:
That is soooo wrong. You can easily do it in many arab countries.

Not really, you cant change your religion to anything but muslim in most arab countries and you cant even have a civil marriage in any arab country.

baresi wrote:
By that they have done a great good deal for Palestinians, if Palestininans in Lebanon were given the lebanese nationallity they wont be able to ask to go back to the homes, since Lebanon would become their home, they would lose all rights of asking for what is theirs in Palestine, just like 4M+ Palesitians in Jordan, can ask for their lands, and when/if a palestanian state exists wont be able to move back to it.

So do the palestinians really wanna go back or are you making their life hell so they would have to go back using any means necessary (including violence?)

baresi wrote:As for the free of speech was Al-Jazeera finally licenced to operate in the US?

You dont need a license to operate in the united states, most local cable networks did not want to carry aljazeera though because they felt it would be offensive to its viewers

baresi wrote:
What is democracy all about? To let ppl chooce what they want, are the muslim brotherhood forcing ppl to join??? I beleive they are a bit extreamists btw, just saying....

No, a democratic republic is about safeguarding the individual and capitalistic rights of man first and then the collective choice by the people as a whole.

baresi wrote:
Just five words into that paragraph and I can easily label it as BS, if it is such a democratic country that fights for humna rights, whay are those still called Palestinians? Dont the hold Israeli paasport?

We call them palestinians in our conversation but legally under the law they are israelis

baresi wrote:@Yuri
Can you please tell us about the "USA PATRIOT ACT"

The biggest farce since watergate, it makes me cringe every time.

baresi wrote:My Last Post, but some good foot for thoughts Yuri:

Wall of text

I dont know the details but the jews were fighting to establish their state amidst arabs who were hungry for their blood, lets not pretend the arabs did not kill civilians in that war

I dont know why this debate is still on, I mean what will you debate with someone justifing killing children, women, and eldery ppl, because Isreal was building its state on the land of those killed.

baresi wrote:

I dont know why this debate is still on, I mean what will you debate with someone justifing killing children, women, and eldery ppl, because Isreal was building its state on the land of those killed.

I am sure that in that war you knew that the arabs threatened the jews with mass extermination, less than 4 years the holocaust al the talk about "driving jews into the sea" and that the arabs were gonna exterminate the jewish plague.

Its not excusable but it is understandable that after all of that and arab rioters killing jews all over the country that they would safeguard the entrances to their cities. What happened happened, it was at a time of hysteria and existential fear that was fed by the arab statements.

Anyways most of the events mentioned are controversial and only appear in palestinian writing decades afterwards (Deir yassin being the exception), Wrong none the less.