Phil Ball: Barca plays anti football away

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Phil Ball: Barca plays anti football away - Page 4 Empty Re: Phil Ball: Barca plays anti football away

Post by The Franchise Tue Sep 13, 2011 2:28 pm

Immaculate_Mole wrote:
The Franchise wrote:If a team doesnt want to come out, they arent going to.

Didnt you see Madrid-Barca last season.

At one point we refused to attack because they were parking the bus, we simply keep the ball at the half way line and didnt go forward for a spell.

It was a counter to their way of plaiyng and they still didnt come out.

We gave them the ball and then simply knocked it long for Cristiano instead of actually passing it and building play, so not to lose shape.


The Franchise wrote:To hell with it, anyone turns this into Barca-Madrid I am deleting posts and warning levels are coming down straight away.

Getting this out the way early.

Deduct yourself 25 % good sir Razz

Damn..I have been found out lol

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Post by Great Leader Sprucenuce Tue Sep 13, 2011 2:29 pm

Jack Daniels wrote:
The Franchise wrote:If a team doesnt want to come out, they arent going to.

Didnt you see Madrid-Barca last season.

At one point we refused to attack because they were parking the bus, we simply keep the ball at the half way line and didnt go forward for a spell.

It was a counter to their way of plaiyng and they still didnt come out.

We gave them the ball and then simply knocked it long for Cristiano instead of actually passing it and building play, so not to lose shape.

That was the semi final in the Bernabeu right?

That was really frustrating. We could've atleast tried to win it since we just came from a victory in the Copa plus we were at home. I'm sure our momentum that day could've atleast brought a better result.


The Franchise wrote:To hell with it, anyone turns this into Barca-Madrid I am deleting posts and warning levels are coming down straight away.

Getting this out the way early.

Take JD's down aswell, the end of Barca and Madrid bitching is near banana
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Post by The Franchise Tue Sep 13, 2011 2:30 pm

Jack Daniels wrote:
The Franchise wrote:If a team doesnt want to come out, they arent going to.

Didnt you see Madrid-Barca last season.

At one point we refused to attack because they were parking the bus, we simply keep the ball at the half way line and didnt go forward for a spell.

It was a counter to their way of plaiyng and they still didnt come out.

We gave them the ball and then simply knocked it long for Cristiano instead of actually passing it and building play, so not to lose shape.

That was the semi final in the Bernabeu right?

That was really frustrating. We could've atleast tried to win it since we just came from a victory in the Copa plus we were at home. I'm sure our momentum that day could've atleast brought a better result.


I cant remember which one to be honest, I think it was that one yeah because it sounds familar due to the Copa win and then the dissapointment at the negativity straight after.

I think alot of Madrid fans were questioning that one.
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Post by The Franchise Tue Sep 13, 2011 2:32 pm

Jack, Mole is right.

Save me the trouble and do the respectful thing lol
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Post by Jack Daniels Tue Sep 13, 2011 2:32 pm

The Franchise wrote:

Damn..I have been found out lol
Dani i think it's time that we silence mole. Cool

Anyway on topic :

I don't believe this Anti-Football exists in any way.

Park the Bus may be disgraceful to see but it's still football. Same as Barca's style, It may be boring to some but it's football.

But i got to admit i sometimes get bored watching Barca when they are in the lead. But in no way i considered it anti-football. Maybe i just prefer direct end to end type of matches.


Last edited by Jack Daniels on Tue Sep 13, 2011 2:36 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Post by The Franchise Tue Sep 13, 2011 2:33 pm

Jack Daniels wrote:
The Franchise wrote:

Damn..I have been found out lol
Dani i think it's time that we silence mole. Cool

True, forget that last message.

I am all for corruption.

Mole, twas nice knowing ye´
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Post by Great Leader Sprucenuce Tue Sep 13, 2011 2:34 pm

Jack Daniels wrote:
The Franchise wrote:

Damn..I have been found out lol
Dani i think it's time that we silence mole. Cool

I am only doing the right thing for the forum Very Happy

Barca and Madrid bitching= Take down 25% rep, do it 4 times get banned= End of Barca and Madrid bitching banana
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Post by BeautifulGame Tue Sep 13, 2011 2:36 pm

Yes it is shameful when teams of the SAME STATURE who are supposed to be your "equals" are doing it. As I said, your playing the exact same method as a small team, what makes you any better then they are? When they steal results via this method, nobody says they are a better team. When big teams do it, why should they be annoced as the better side?

Because they beat u.In football when one team beats another then its called that wiining team is called better team.There is no rule that states u need to do the way Barca orders u to play or otherwise u are still inferior.

Most teams dont try the pressing system to beat barca since Barca are already better at it.So trying the pressing system to beat Barca is pointless.They employ the method which suits them(Legitimate methods allowed by FIFA before anyone complains anti - football ) and are better at it to beat Barca.

As for small teams and big teams its not simply because Barca are beaten it also matters in which context they are beaten.And what is the end result.Otherwise u are just looking it from a narrow point of view.

Yes, there is nothing wrong with what Barca do. As I already explained the obvious diferences people like you want to ignore or are too blind to see.

And there is nothing wrong with the tactics what other teams do to counter Barca's possession football either.If anyone finds fault with that then the problem certainly lies with them not at the tactics of opposition teams.


Last edited by BeautifulGame on Tue Sep 13, 2011 2:58 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Post by Great Leader Sprucenuce Tue Sep 13, 2011 2:42 pm

The Franchise wrote:Jack, Mole is right.

Save me the trouble and do the respectful thing lol

The funny thing about all this, is that my name is Jack so your telling myself that myself is right?

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Post by Lord Spencer Tue Sep 13, 2011 2:51 pm

The Franchise wrote:
Omniscient wrote:
The Franchise wrote:I have no graso of how pressing works? I laughavle statement, I am intrested enough on the subject to have a manual written on pressing that I casually took on holiday with me for my plane journey.

I have no idea how pressing works, yet in my spare time I go out my way to read an entire manual devoted to it. I am laughing at you right now.

Why are you telling me about pressing manuals that you may or may not have read? I couldn't care less.

You are the one who dont know how pressing works because you believe teams can press for the entire game. A outragous statement.

This is the complete opposite of what I'm telling you. You're the one saying that teams "have the option" of pressing Barcelona. Are you coherent right now?

Barca have the ball 70% of the time, therefore they only press 30% of the time at most and even they cant do it for much longer then 60 minutes. Big time fail on your part.

Only certain teams have the ability to press? Thats another myth.

You need players with high stamina, desire and a coach who is can implement it. Any team can press the ball.

Alright, any respect I may have had for you is surely gone now. Your two sentences above are complete, direct contradictions.

Can many teams press Barca and get a result? No, they are a superb team who rarely drop any points. But you will find teams that press have a better chance of winning games then parking the bus. Its been proven time and time again, the teams that press, do better.

There was nothing Sociedad could do? Then how come we lost our lead?

Villa putting Sociedad through on goal? :facepalm:

The pressed more, didnt you watch the game? They didnt press full pitch, because maybe you didnt know, there are many ways you can press..but the pressed the midfield (not the backline like Barca would do) and didnt allow them time to find passes over the top.

How do you think they came back into the game? Just luck? If Barca were playing more keep ball, how did they make more mistakes?

And I would love for you to find where I said defending deep is "anti-football". If you want you can go through not just this thread, but any thead and see if you can find those words. Once you fail, you can apologize..or more likely in your case, stick your tail between your legs and run.

The classic fallback when you lose an argument, ask someone else to go rummaging through your posts and provide specifically worded quotes LOL. Let me get this straight, your point is that it's "unneeded and shameful" (direct quotes) for teams to park the bus against Barcelona, but it's COMPLETELY okay for Barcelona to sit on the ball and park the bus their own way.

After that, you proceed to admit that it's impossible for a team to consistently press Barcelona for the whole game, but if they don't try then it's "shameful". Typical Barcelona attitude, every team has an obligation of pressing and losing like United just so Barcelona can win gloriously, instead of defending heroically and winning like Inter?.


As I said before, you sir, are clueless.

This is exactly what I wanted to say to you.

Couldnt of you quoted and then made a response underneath?....your way of doing it has made it hard to read when replying to your post. Anyway...

Im telling you about pressing manuals because you claim I dont know what pressing is and how it works. I found it pretty funny you would make that claim while I casually read manual on the subject just for the sake of it.

I laughed more when I read your explanations about pressing though.

Dont pretent I am not making any sense. I am clear as day.

Forget what I said before for a moment, your telling me I dont know about pressing yet you go ahead and say only a few teams can press the entire game. Utter rubbish and the fact you said it tells me is you who doesnt understand it.

I could care less about your respect for me, like someone like you has an opinion about me I care about.

And no, there is no contridiction. I said teams need x, y and z to press and when they have them, you can press. As you can see from the things I noted (I would now also add the need for a touch of mobility in wide areas) they are not impossible to achieve for any side in the top divison. I am shocked I have to explain something so routine.

Pick any random side, they have the capability to have players with stamina, players with desire, players with a coach who understands the theory (seeing as I get, any coach must understand it) and now I have added mobility in wide areas. EVERY team in the first division can have that. Again, why I have to break this down for you I dont know.

Villa put them back into game game? Again, I ask, did you watch it?

Number 1, it was 2-1 at that point. They were hounding us and we looked on the ropes before that goal. They scored to make it 2-1 from a cross, how do you think they got into that position when they couldnt in the first half?

And second, why did Vlla make that pass? Because he didnt have a forward or even sideways safe pass on......why?..because as I said, they pressed the midfield and didnt allow the same time and space as in the first half.

As I thought, you claim I said something and you have been called out on it, not surprosing you cant back it up.

Mabye you should be careful with what you claim I said next time. As I said, no apology and tail between your legs.

Yes it is shameful when teams of the SAME STATURE who are supposed to be your "equals" are doing it. As I said, your playing the exact same method as a small team, what makes you any better then they are? When they steal results via this method, nobody says they are a better team. When big teams do it, why should they be annoced as the better side?

Who said any team that doesnt press the whole game is shameful"..more words being put in my mouth I didnt say.

I didnt know there was only two ways to play footbal, full pitch high pressure of parking the bus...you come off sounds like that is the case for some reason.


Yes, there is nothing wrong with what Barca do. As I already explained the obvious diferences people like you want to ignore or are too blind to see.




I don't think Milan have the personal to play a pressing game for 15% of the match.

They did at some point, but they are too old now.

Also, the Barca combination of possession and pressing is really strong as you pointed out. If you have the ball for most of the time, you will not need to press a lot.

I think you underrate the attributes necessary for a successful pressing game. True that any team that understands pressing can do it, but it does not mean they can do it successfully. Just as other tactics. Most top clubs don't have the finances necessary to buy players by the dozen anymore, and they have to make do with what they have.

Of Italy's top 6 clubs, only Juve have the potential to play a pressing game for more than 20% of the match. Inter and Milan are too old for that. While Lazio, Napoli, and Roma simply don't have the skills necessary.
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Post by The Franchise Tue Sep 13, 2011 2:55 pm

BeautifulGame wrote:
Yes it is shameful when teams of the SAME STATURE who are supposed to be your "equals" are doing it. As I said, your playing the exact same method as a small team, what makes you any better then they are? When they steal results via this method, nobody says they are a better team. When big teams do it, why should they be annoced as the better side?

Because they beat u.In football when one team beats another then its called that wiining team is called better team.There is no rule that states u need to do the way Barca orders u to play or otherwise u are still inferior.

Most teams dont try the pressing system to beat barca since Barca are already better at it.So trying the pressing system to beat Barca is pointless.They employ the method which suits them(Legitimate methods allowed by FIFA before anyone complains anti - football ) and are better at it to beat Barca.

As for small teams and big teams its not simply because Barca are beaten it also matters in which context they are beaten.And what is the end result.Otherwise u are just looking it from a narrow point of view.

No, not because they beat us. Madrid lost, Chelsea lost and they too were shameful for doing. So there goes that one.

How does Barca being better at pressing stop the other team from pressing...how does that make any sense at all? Explain that one, please.

"when one team beats another then its called that wiining team is called better team."

How you can honestly believe that, I dont know. Hurcules > Barca then.

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Post by The Franchise Tue Sep 13, 2011 3:07 pm

[quote="Lord Spencer"][quote="The Franchise"]
Omniscient wrote:
The Franchise wrote:

I don't think Milan have the personal to play a pressing game for 15% of the match.

They did at some point, but they are too old now.

Also, the Barca combination of possession and pressing is really strong as you pointed out. If you have the ball for most of the time, you will not need to press a lot.

I think you underrate the attributes necessary for a successful pressing game. True that any team that understands pressing can do it, but it does not mean they can do it successfully. Just as other tactics. Most top clubs don't have the finances necessary to buy players by the dozen anymore, and they have to make do with what they have.

Of Italy's top 6 clubs, only Juve have the potential to play a pressing game for more than 20% of the match. Inter and Milan are too old for that. While Lazio, Napoli, and Roma simply don't have the skills necessary.

A difficult to understand 2 way convo just became a 3 way. But if you insist.

Milan dont have the personal to press for 15% of the game?

So its impossible to put Pato, Emmanuelson, Boateng in a 4321 (those being the forward 3 players) and press? While Ambrosini, Nocerino and Van Bommell coming behind them?

You think thats impossible for just 15% of the game?

I dont agree which obviously means I dont agree with your next part. Teams dont press because it takes time, work and organsation to do it. Its simply easier to play a more negative brand of football. Its not because teams dont have the player for it (in my opinion) its because its the harder task. What teams maybe dont get is, while it might be harder to do, you have a much better chance of being sucessfull.

Posters want to point to the fact we beat Madrid 5-0 when they didnt park the bus and pressed. But anyone who watched the game carefully saw the pressure they applied was sloppy and frankly looked unorganised and not practiced. Shocking for a Mourinho team but thats what it looked like to me.

Of course, as I said in the last two paragraphs, I dont agree with what your saying about Serie A teams being unable to press. I think for them, its even more so the coaches attitude towards it because tactically Italians teams have been about sitting back and being reactive, rather then agressive and proactive. Not all teams of course but many.

I have a question, what do you think is needed for a pressing team to funcion?

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Post by SaintJoe Tue Sep 13, 2011 3:07 pm

No such thing as anti-football.
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Post by BeautifulGame Tue Sep 13, 2011 3:20 pm


How does Barca being better at pressing stop the other team from pressing...how does that make any sense at all? Explain that one, please.

How can u beat the team that is already better than u at pressing and keeping possession.Even if u win back possession u cant keep it for any prolonged time since Barca are better at pressing and winning back the possession and more importantly keeping it and creating chances.Its pointless.

"when one team beats another then its called that wiining team is called better team."

How you can honestly believe that, I dont know. Hurcules > Barca then.

Thats why i clearly said it also matters in which context they are beaten.And what is the end result.Otherwise u are just looking it from a narrow point of view

Hurcules beat Barca in a league where only 3 point matters so only if they went on win the league then they are certainly better than Barca.But when Inter beat Barca in a knock out tie they are better team than them that season.

Not sure whats the issue here.Anyone can see a difference btw a league game and a knock out tie.
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Post by EarlyPrototype Tue Sep 13, 2011 3:22 pm

The Franchise wrote:
Lord Hispano wrote:Well defending isn't child's play either.

Remember when Panthinaikos tried doing it on you guys last season.


No organization of any sort, at all.

To Defend you must have a lot of Mental and actual Defending ability.

Physicallity might work as well, but that exposes your team to suffer Yellow's and Red's.

Defending isnt childs play, but parking the bus is easy compared to possession.

I have seen teams do it with hardly any talent, we struggled to break down many teams who did it. Eventually they folded, which in the end is the problem with parking the bus, but it wasnt anything we did diferent which caused that. We had to sit and hope they would crack.

No other team is capable of playing possession like us, many teams are capable of parking the bus well.

How is parking the bus easy compared to possession?

They are completely different styles, 2009/10 Inter can't keep possession like you and you can't park the bus like them. How they are being compared I don't know.

As for the OP I wouldn't say Barca play anti-football just.....boring (to my taste at least).
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Post by The Franchise Tue Sep 13, 2011 3:29 pm

BeautifulGame wrote:

How does Barca being better at pressing stop the other team from pressing...how does that make any sense at all? Explain that one, please.

How can u beat the team that is already better than u at pressing and keeping possession.Even if u win back possession u cant keep it for any prolonged time since Barca are better at pressing and winning back the possession and more importantly keeping it and creating chances.Its pointless.

"when one team beats another then its called that wiining team is called better team."

How you can honestly believe that, I dont know. Hurcules > Barca then.

Thats why i clearly said it also matters in which context they are beaten.And what is the end result.Otherwise u are just looking it from a narrow point of view

Hurcules beat Barca in a league where only 3 point matters so only if they went on win the league then they are certainly better than Barca.But when Inter beat Barca in a knock out tie they are better team than them that season.

Not sure whats the issue here.Anyone can see a difference btw a league game and a knock out tie.

You make no sense. First of all, teams who have pressed us have caused us more problems then teams that have parked the bus. That is a fact, anyone who watched the games knows this.

Secondly. If you press Barca and dont let them get into a flow. You can win the ball back high up the pitch and have chances at goal without having to break their press when you have possession at the back. What your saynig is difficult to understand, frankly your not very clear to me. When you press Barca, you can win it their half...their pressing therefore has no effect on you.

Right Inter are better because they won a single on off game...nonsense. Anyone can win on any given day, that doesnt mean they are better, it means they won the game. Inter played Barca 4 times, won 1, drew 2, lost 1. That is more evidence of their comparitive ability in that season then a single game in isolation.

There is no difference between a league game and a knock out game, other then importance of winning and losing it. That doesnt change the ability level of any of the teas playing in it.

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Post by The Franchise Tue Sep 13, 2011 3:31 pm

EarlyPrototype wrote:
The Franchise wrote:
Lord Hispano wrote:Well defending isn't child's play either.

Remember when Panthinaikos tried doing it on you guys last season.


No organization of any sort, at all.

To Defend you must have a lot of Mental and actual Defending ability.

Physicallity might work as well, but that exposes your team to suffer Yellow's and Red's.

Defending isnt childs play, but parking the bus is easy compared to possession.

I have seen teams do it with hardly any talent, we struggled to break down many teams who did it. Eventually they folded, which in the end is the problem with parking the bus, but it wasnt anything we did diferent which caused that. We had to sit and hope they would crack.

No other team is capable of playing possession like us, many teams are capable of parking the bus well.

How is parking the bus easy compared to possession?

They are completely different styles, 2009/10 Inter can't keep possession like you and you can't park the bus like them. How they are being compared I don't know.

As for the OP I wouldn't say Barca play anti-football just.....boring (to my taste at least).

Well, because no team other then us can keep possession like us.

Many teams can park the bus, and multiple teams can park the bus well enough so its extremely hard to score.

If only one team can do A, but many teams (or even just 2 teams) can do B...A is harder.

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Post by EarlyPrototype Tue Sep 13, 2011 3:39 pm

The Franchise wrote:
EarlyPrototype wrote:
The Franchise wrote:
Lord Hispano wrote:Well defending isn't child's play either.

Remember when Panthinaikos tried doing it on you guys last season.


No organization of any sort, at all.

To Defend you must have a lot of Mental and actual Defending ability.

Physicallity might work as well, but that exposes your team to suffer Yellow's and Red's.

Defending isnt childs play, but parking the bus is easy compared to possession.

I have seen teams do it with hardly any talent, we struggled to break down many teams who did it. Eventually they folded, which in the end is the problem with parking the bus, but it wasnt anything we did diferent which caused that. We had to sit and hope they would crack.

No other team is capable of playing possession like us, many teams are capable of parking the bus well.

How is parking the bus easy compared to possession?

They are completely different styles, 2009/10 Inter can't keep possession like you and you can't park the bus like them. How they are being compared I don't know.

As for the OP I wouldn't say Barca play anti-football just.....boring (to my taste at least).

Well, because no team other then us can keep possession like us.

Many teams can park the bus, and multiple teams can park the bus well enough so its extremely hard to score.

If only one team can do A, but many teams (or even just 2 teams) can do B...A is harder.


You are right about the fact that your the best possession keepers, but I could argue that you can't park the bus like 2009/10 Inter therefore possession keeping is easier.

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Post by Doc Tue Sep 13, 2011 3:40 pm

Phil had on his La Real cap when he wrote that remark and I probably would have said the same thing given the same circumstances. However, no such thing as anti football and I really wish grown men who suppose to know better stop mentioning such things as if it is the truth or whatever.

As for Barcelona, they plays exactly to their strengths and utilize it in both an offensive and defensive way. I find it rather dull and boring but they don't play for me so that's about it really...
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Post by BeautifulGame Tue Sep 13, 2011 3:45 pm

Right Inter are better because they won a single on off game...nonsense. Anyone can win on any given day, that doesnt mean they are better, it means they won the game. Inter played Barca 4 times, won 1, drew 2, lost 1. That is more evidence of their comparitive ability in that season then a single game in isolation.

There is no difference between a league game and a knock out game, other then importance of winning and losing it. That doesnt change the ability level of any of the teas playing in it.


There is a massive difference btw them.U lose far more from a knock out tie in CL than from a league game and hence the pressure is far more playing from a CL tie to a league game.And pressure affects the abilities of team playing more than any other factor.

If u cant understand this simple difference btw a league game and a CL knock out tie there is no point in explaining about it further.I give up.


You make no sense. First of all, teams who have pressed us have caused us more problems then teams that have parked the bus. That is a fact, anyone who watched the games knows this.

Secondly. If you press Barca and dont let them get into a flow. You can win the ball back high up the pitch and have chances at goal without having to break their press when you have possession at the back. What your saynig is difficult to understand, frankly your not very clear to me. When you press Barca, you can win it their half...their pressing therefore has no effect on you.

And if that is that simple as u sound why do u think most teams seriously dont try that tactic unless they fall behind? Seriously u are sounding very naive here.

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Post by Lord Awesome Tue Sep 13, 2011 4:02 pm

Missed a hell of a thread. Sad

I had to go home.
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Phil Ball: Barca plays anti football away - Page 4 Empty Re: Phil Ball: Barca plays anti football away

Post by Lord Spencer Tue Sep 13, 2011 4:28 pm

[quote="The Franchise"][quote="Lord Spencer"]
The Franchise wrote:
Omniscient wrote:
The Franchise wrote:

I don't think Milan have the personal to play a pressing game for 15% of the match.

They did at some point, but they are too old now.

Also, the Barca combination of possession and pressing is really strong as you pointed out. If you have the ball for most of the time, you will not need to press a lot.

I think you underrate the attributes necessary for a successful pressing game. True that any team that understands pressing can do it, but it does not mean they can do it successfully. Just as other tactics. Most top clubs don't have the finances necessary to buy players by the dozen anymore, and they have to make do with what they have.

Of Italy's top 6 clubs, only Juve have the potential to play a pressing game for more than 20% of the match. Inter and Milan are too old for that. While Lazio, Napoli, and Roma simply don't have the skills necessary.

A difficult to understand 2 way convo just became a 3 way. But if you insist.

Milan dont have the personal to press for 15% of the game?

So its impossible to put Pato, Emmanuelson, Boateng in a 4321 (those being the forward 3 players) and press? While Ambrosini, Nocerino and Van Bommell coming behind them?

You think thats impossible for just 15% of the game?

I dont agree which obviously means I dont agree with your next part. Teams dont press because it takes time, work and organsation to do it. Its simply easier to play a more negative brand of football. Its not because teams dont have the player for it (in my opinion) its because its the harder task. What teams maybe dont get is, while it might be harder to do, you have a much better chance of being sucessfull.

Posters want to point to the fact we beat Madrid 5-0 when they didnt park the bus and pressed. But anyone who watched the game carefully saw the pressure they applied was sloppy and frankly looked unorganised and not practiced. Shocking for a Mourinho team but thats what it looked like to me.

Of course, as I said in the last two paragraphs, I dont agree with what your saying about Serie A teams being unable to press. I think for them, its even more so the coaches attitude towards it because tactically Italians teams have been about sitting back and being reactive, rather then agressive and proactive. Not all teams of course but many.

I have a question, what do you think is needed for a pressing team to funcion?

I think you need stamina, organization, dedication, and speed.

Of the ones you mentioned, Ambrosini does not have the stamina or speed neccessary. Nocerino is still untested against top oppossition, and Van Bommel is better than Ambro, but still of advanced age. Both could have done it, and indeed have done years ago, but are not able to at this level week in, week out.

Boateng and Emmanuelson do indeed work, but putting two no-creative midfielders would make no sense when we actually have the ball.

Pato hates to work/like Ronaldinho, which is why Barca had to offload him because he disrupted their plans. He might change, but maybe that just his personality.

And if either Taiwo or Abate are injured, then our fullbacks can't press either.

I agree that pressing would work on Barca better than "negative" tactics, but applying a tactic without the personal to make it succeed is foolish IMO. And Milan do not have the personal to keep possession for 60% of the game, so they would have to press for more than 15% (which was an exaggeration I admit). And from what I saw from Milan, that is not effectively possible.

Again, I agree with you on your tactical POV, although I do not agree on the terminology of Negative tactics. Yet, I disagree with you on the personal needed. I am aware that you know more than more on the subject of pressing, and am thankful of understanding more on it (I would actually wish you would make a thread discussing it), but I disagree on how simple you make it to be. If it was that simple, then I see no reason why don't all teams do it in all matches.
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Phil Ball: Barca plays anti football away - Page 4 Empty Re: Phil Ball: Barca plays anti football away

Post by The Franchise Tue Sep 13, 2011 6:22 pm

BeautifulGame wrote:
Right Inter are better because they won a single on off game...nonsense. Anyone can win on any given day, that doesnt mean they are better, it means they won the game. Inter played Barca 4 times, won 1, drew 2, lost 1. That is more evidence of their comparitive ability in that season then a single game in isolation.

There is no difference between a league game and a knock out game, other then importance of winning and losing it. That doesnt change the ability level of any of the teas playing in it.


There is a massive difference btw them.U lose far more from a knock out tie in CL than from a league game and hence the pressure is far more playing from a CL tie to a league game.And pressure affects the abilities of team playing more than any other factor.

If u cant understand this simple difference btw a league game and a CL knock out tie there is no point in explaining about it further.I give up.


You make no sense. First of all, teams who have pressed us have caused us more problems then teams that have parked the bus. That is a fact, anyone who watched the games knows this.

Secondly. If you press Barca and dont let them get into a flow. You can win the ball back high up the pitch and have chances at goal without having to break their press when you have possession at the back. What your saynig is difficult to understand, frankly your not very clear to me. When you press Barca, you can win it their half...their pressing therefore has no effect on you.

And if that is that simple as u sound why do u think most teams seriously dont try that tactic unless they fall behind? Seriously u are sounding very naive here.


Why would you "give up" didnt you read me write "other then importance of winning and losing it". Your saying, the pressure of winning and losing that important game effects the ability of the players. You watched the game, is that what you saw? Barca players losing and playing worse because the pressure of the situation was too much? A team of experience with plaeyrs who have won the CL 2 times were suddenly put off by the occassion and pressure, therefore playing worse.

Is that what you saw? Because that isnt what I saw.

I saw Inter having a great day and playing a great game tactically (which funny enough wasnt parking the bus) while Barca had a bad day and made errors while being tactically bad. The pressure of the game wasnt a factor to me.

Tell me which you think.


As for he pressing. I already explained why I think teams dont try that tactic. Its must easier and takes less work just simply park the bus then press high. Degree of difficulty. I have already explained this, why are you ignoring it?

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Phil Ball: Barca plays anti football away - Page 4 Empty Re: Phil Ball: Barca plays anti football away

Post by The Franchise Tue Sep 13, 2011 11:37 pm

[quote="Lord Spencer"][quote="The Franchise"]
Lord Spencer wrote:
The Franchise wrote:
Omniscient wrote:
The Franchise wrote:

I don't think Milan have the personal to play a pressing game for 15% of the match.

They did at some point, but they are too old now.

Also, the Barca combination of possession and pressing is really strong as you pointed out. If you have the ball for most of the time, you will not need to press a lot.

I think you underrate the attributes necessary for a successful pressing game. True that any team that understands pressing can do it, but it does not mean they can do it successfully. Just as other tactics. Most top clubs don't have the finances necessary to buy players by the dozen anymore, and they have to make do with what they have.

Of Italy's top 6 clubs, only Juve have the potential to play a pressing game for more than 20% of the match. Inter and Milan are too old for that. While Lazio, Napoli, and Roma simply don't have the skills necessary.

A difficult to understand 2 way convo just became a 3 way. But if you insist.

Milan dont have the personal to press for 15% of the game?

So its impossible to put Pato, Emmanuelson, Boateng in a 4321 (those being the forward 3 players) and press? While Ambrosini, Nocerino and Van Bommell coming behind them?

You think thats impossible for just 15% of the game?

I dont agree which obviously means I dont agree with your next part. Teams dont press because it takes time, work and organsation to do it. Its simply easier to play a more negative brand of football. Its not because teams dont have the player for it (in my opinion) its because its the harder task. What teams maybe dont get is, while it might be harder to do, you have a much better chance of being sucessfull.

Posters want to point to the fact we beat Madrid 5-0 when they didnt park the bus and pressed. But anyone who watched the game carefully saw the pressure they applied was sloppy and frankly looked unorganised and not practiced. Shocking for a Mourinho team but thats what it looked like to me.

Of course, as I said in the last two paragraphs, I dont agree with what your saying about Serie A teams being unable to press. I think for them, its even more so the coaches attitude towards it because tactically Italians teams have been about sitting back and being reactive, rather then agressive and proactive. Not all teams of course but many.

I have a question, what do you think is needed for a pressing team to funcion?

I think you need stamina, organization, dedication, and speed.

Of the ones you mentioned, Ambrosini does not have the stamina or speed neccessary. Nocerino is still untested against top oppossition, and Van Bommel is better than Ambro, but still of advanced age. Both could have done it, and indeed have done years ago, but are not able to at this level week in, week out.

Boateng and Emmanuelson do indeed work, but putting two no-creative midfielders would make no sense when we actually have the ball.

Pato hates to work/like Ronaldinho, which is why Barca had to offload him because he disrupted their plans. He might change, but maybe that just his personality.

And if either Taiwo or Abate are injured, then our fullbacks can't press either.

I agree that pressing would work on Barca better than "negative" tactics, but applying a tactic without the personal to make it succeed is foolish IMO. And Milan do not have the personal to keep possession for 60% of the game, so they would have to press for more than 15% (which was an exaggeration I admit). And from what I saw from Milan, that is not effectively possible.

Again, I agree with you on your tactical POV, although I do not agree on the terminology of Negative tactics. Yet, I disagree with you on the personal needed. I am aware that you know more than more on the subject of pressing, and am thankful of understanding more on it (I would actually wish you would make a thread discussing it), but I disagree on how simple you make it to be. If it was that simple, then I see no reason why don't all teams do it in all matches.

Care to explain why Sacchi's Milan were experts at pressing then? Other then Guillt, none of their front players had great speed. Speed isnt important, because your pressing them and not letting them turn and run in the first place. Its about organasation of movement, not the ability to run fast.

Ambrosini isnt much slower then Xavi, if he can press why not Ambrosisni. Staminia isnt a factor, because you said just 15% of the match. The role of the midfield in pressing involves much less sprinting, other then perhaps the first midfielder out with would be Boateng, not Ambrosini.

Van Bommell would hardly do any sprinting either, do you ever see Busquets sprint?

Pato doesnt work ghate? Well effort is in everyones capabilities, thats the point I am making. He is capable. If Ibra did it, nearly anyone can.

The fullbacks? They arent doing alot of sprinting at first, but I agree that int he recovery phases mobility is a strong assest and you cant be sluggish. But your starting fullbacks are capable of this.

I agree speed is an assest and I agree its a advantage to have, but a need, it is not. Especially not in centeral areas.

I am not here saying every team can and should press all the time, nor am I see its even the best way to go. But what I am saying is, every team has the capacity to do it in a one of situation.

There maybe flaws in it, but there are flaws in parking the bus too with the wrong personale. So its the same situation.

If I made it sound simple, that wasnt my intention I assure you. Because I did also say I felt parking the bus is easier somewhere back in this thread.

Nice idea about making a thread about pressing actually. But to be really honest, I dont have the motivation to do things like that anymore. Been on this forum a long time and too often I see good threads go to waste and good ideas and opinion to discuss get little attention or worse still, the wrong attention.

I only like to get involved in threads like this to keep myself "sharp" and see if I still have the ability to argue my opinion well or not. But I have long since lost the motivation to be a thread starter and generate ideas.





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Phil Ball: Barca plays anti football away - Page 4 Empty Re: Phil Ball: Barca plays anti football away

Post by Lord Spencer Tue Sep 13, 2011 11:47 pm

[quote="The Franchise"][quote="Lord Spencer"]
The Franchise wrote:
Lord Spencer wrote:
The Franchise wrote:
Omniscient wrote:
The Franchise wrote:

I don't think Milan have the personal to play a pressing game for 15% of the match.

They did at some point, but they are too old now.

Also, the Barca combination of possession and pressing is really strong as you pointed out. If you have the ball for most of the time, you will not need to press a lot.

I think you underrate the attributes necessary for a successful pressing game. True that any team that understands pressing can do it, but it does not mean they can do it successfully. Just as other tactics. Most top clubs don't have the finances necessary to buy players by the dozen anymore, and they have to make do with what they have.

Of Italy's top 6 clubs, only Juve have the potential to play a pressing game for more than 20% of the match. Inter and Milan are too old for that. While Lazio, Napoli, and Roma simply don't have the skills necessary.

A difficult to understand 2 way convo just became a 3 way. But if you insist.

Milan dont have the personal to press for 15% of the game?

So its impossible to put Pato, Emmanuelson, Boateng in a 4321 (those being the forward 3 players) and press? While Ambrosini, Nocerino and Van Bommell coming behind them?

You think thats impossible for just 15% of the game?

I dont agree which obviously means I dont agree with your next part. Teams dont press because it takes time, work and organsation to do it. Its simply easier to play a more negative brand of football. Its not because teams dont have the player for it (in my opinion) its because its the harder task. What teams maybe dont get is, while it might be harder to do, you have a much better chance of being sucessfull.

Posters want to point to the fact we beat Madrid 5-0 when they didnt park the bus and pressed. But anyone who watched the game carefully saw the pressure they applied was sloppy and frankly looked unorganised and not practiced. Shocking for a Mourinho team but thats what it looked like to me.

Of course, as I said in the last two paragraphs, I dont agree with what your saying about Serie A teams being unable to press. I think for them, its even more so the coaches attitude towards it because tactically Italians teams have been about sitting back and being reactive, rather then agressive and proactive. Not all teams of course but many.

I have a question, what do you think is needed for a pressing team to funcion?

I think you need stamina, organization, dedication, and speed.

Of the ones you mentioned, Ambrosini does not have the stamina or speed neccessary. Nocerino is still untested against top oppossition, and Van Bommel is better than Ambro, but still of advanced age. Both could have done it, and indeed have done years ago, but are not able to at this level week in, week out.

Boateng and Emmanuelson do indeed work, but putting two no-creative midfielders would make no sense when we actually have the ball.

Pato hates to work/like Ronaldinho, which is why Barca had to offload him because he disrupted their plans. He might change, but maybe that just his personality.

And if either Taiwo or Abate are injured, then our fullbacks can't press either.

I agree that pressing would work on Barca better than "negative" tactics, but applying a tactic without the personal to make it succeed is foolish IMO. And Milan do not have the personal to keep possession for 60% of the game, so they would have to press for more than 15% (which was an exaggeration I admit). And from what I saw from Milan, that is not effectively possible.

Again, I agree with you on your tactical POV, although I do not agree on the terminology of Negative tactics. Yet, I disagree with you on the personal needed. I am aware that you know more than more on the subject of pressing, and am thankful of understanding more on it (I would actually wish you would make a thread discussing it), but I disagree on how simple you make it to be. If it was that simple, then I see no reason why don't all teams do it in all matches.

Care to explain why Sacchi's Milan were experts at pressing then? Other then Guillt, none of their front players had great speed. Speed isnt important, because your pressing them and not letting them turn and run in the first place. Its about organasation of movement, not the ability to run fast.

Ambrosini isnt much slower then Xavi, if he can press why not Ambrosisni. Staminia isnt a factor, because you said just 15% of the match. The role of the midfield in pressing involves much less sprinting, other then perhaps the first midfielder out with would be Boateng, not Ambrosini.

Van Bommell would hardly do any sprinting either, do you ever see Busquets sprint?

Pato doesnt work ghate? Well effort is in everyones capabilities, thats the point I am making. He is capable. If Ibra did it, nearly anyone can.

The fullbacks? They arent doing alot of sprinting at first, but I agree that int he recovery phases mobility is a strong assest and you cant be sluggish. But your starting fullbacks are capable of this.

I agree speed is an assest and I agree its a advantage to have, but a need, it is not. Especially not in centeral areas.

I am not here saying every team can and should press all the time, nor am I see its even the best way to go. But what I am saying is, every team has the capacity to do it in a one of situation.

There maybe flaws in it, but there are flaws in parking the bus too with the wrong personale. So its the same situation.

If I made it sound simple, that wasnt my intention I assure you. Because I did also say I felt parking the bus is easier somewhere back in this thread.

Nice idea about making a thread about pressing actually. But to be really honest, I dont have the motivation to do things like that anymore. Been on this forum a long time and too often I see good threads go to waste and good ideas and opinion to discuss get little attention or worse still, the wrong attention.

I only like to get involved in threads like this to keep myself "sharp" and see if I still have the ability to argue my opinion well or not. But I have long since lost the motivation to be a thread starter and generate ideas.






I see your point about speed there. And I agree that Ambrosini will not be trouble by stamina if it was only for 15% pf the game. Although it is is certainly going to be more. I really don't think Ambro even have the legs to do it at all, as seen from today's match.

And even if Milan get the ball, they would lose it because they can't hold the ball for long.

MVB would work out quite well.

Anyway, I am just beginning to understand what you are getting at. And I would
be very appreciative of a thread detailing that.

I see why you would hate to be a thread starter. As threads that do not go into controversial statements tend to be either ignored, or destroyed.

Anyway, thank you for your patience in explaining your point, and I what your aiming at.

I think it is going to develop into a more used tactic. But that would endanger some positions over other, but that is a whole different discussion.
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Post by The Franchise Wed Sep 14, 2011 12:51 am

More then 15% (maybe even a touch more) then no, I agree. But you could even combine methods, I think Valencia did that once. They pressed very had early, got a goal and then for the rest of the game sat back and defended. Of course you have to score in that time you press, or you urn ou of gas but its a sounds tactic I felt. I thought Arsenal were actually going to copy that and I certaintly thought Man Utd would. I was surprised neither really did.

You said, when Milan get the ball, they would lose it because they dont hold it well. I agree. But I think if you press high up the pitch, your aim is to win the ball before it gets to the half way line. So, when you win it, they dont have to hold it long, they can go direct to goal.

Of course this means they never get a break from pressing, which is why of course there is a limited time you can hope to do it. Again, you probably need a goal and then once fatigue sets in you can take your foot of the pressing and sit back.

No need to thank me, but I do appricate it.

And intresting last line, that would be an entire new discussion but an intresting one none the less.

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