Germany

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Post by Sushi Master Fri Sep 09, 2011 4:30 am

schnix wrote:
Sushi Master wrote:Yeah, 4-2-3-1 is very solid. The only team to break it was Spain, the rest got sorta raped.

spain never broke germany. they won by a set piece and germany actually achieved 50% possession in that match, and they didnt even have their best player, thomas muller
I also feel with Mueller it would have been a different outcome, but Germany played pretty awful in that game. The players sort of sat back and waited instead of pressing, which is essential if you want to break up that monotomous possession Spain play. Most of the game was spent defending deep and there weren't much of those sweet counter attacks. Loew showed his inexperience there and payed. Oezil was also pretty burnt out.

I aprove of 4-1-4-1 against weaker teams or as a tactical choice, but the main choice should still be 4-2-3-1, IMO. Germany has good defenders, great midfielders and a FAST front 4, that all fit into a counter attacking scheme.

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Post by VivaStPauli Fri Sep 09, 2011 11:21 am

What Sushi Master said, regarding the Spain game. I agree with Schnix that Spain didn't break the German system, I also agree that Müller might've made a difference, but in the end, Germany played too deep, lacked balls and pressing, and probably would've lost with Müller as well in that match, simply because they were too passive.

But that's beside the point.

The real point is: 4-1-4-1 might just work.

The ovious problem is the defensive work that has to be put in. Özil certainly isn't going to backtrakc that much. Sure, he helps out, he presses, but you really can't expect him to run back and tackle a guy like Müller would, or Kroos might.
But Özil + Götze is still kind of the obvious choice here as CAMs and I'm not sure that it wouldn't work.

Götze is already looking pretty sharp defensively considering his age and height - he just might get to a point where he ends up being pretty box-to-boxy. The real question is basically just if one of the CAMs can drop deep and help out.
Schweinsteiger is already pretty good cover for the defense (though in that regard, Bender or Khedira would be better, but they lack the playmaking ability of Mr. Piggy) - behind that, we actually got a couple potentially WC CBs in Hummels (obviously), Boateng and Höwedes, maybe Mertesacker if he gets back to his best. Playing Lahm is a no-brainer, it's basically just two things: 1) We need an RB, and Löw seems set to use Boateng or Höwedes there, after Träsch sucking in that position, and 2) Löw also seems quite convinced to start Kroos a lot, but that would either mean no Götze, or no Podolski, or no Schweinsteiger. And with Podolski delivering hugely in every tournament, I just can't really see Löw dropping him, and Schweinsteiger is basically the teams heart and soul already.

So where does Kroos fit? He's more attacking that Piggy, so he can't play the sole DM role, so he'll either start instead of Götze or be a sub.

But tbh for the first time in years I'm not really worried about our defense.
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Post by Arquitecto Fri Sep 09, 2011 11:22 am

Camurrìa.Sto.Stronzo wrote:Where's Wiggles? He usually pops up in these topics scratch


umm... Banned? Don't you remember?
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Post by Zealous Fri Sep 09, 2011 11:27 am

Haha +1 for Don Vicente Arq Very Happy
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Post by shreek Fri Sep 09, 2011 1:11 pm

it really stupid if loew use 4-1-4-1 with one of kroos and gotze in place of khedira or bender as plan A
in my view neither of kroos and gotze are in the level of too good to be benched yet
germany should look up to spain
last year at world cup cesc is a much more established and proven player than kroos or gotze is now, but spain didn't hesitate to bench him and use him as a sub

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Post by VivaStPauli Fri Sep 09, 2011 1:50 pm

shreek wrote:
last year at world cup cesc is a much more established and proven player than kroos or gotze is now, but spain didn't hesitate to bench him and use him as a sub

Apples and oranges.
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Post by The Franchise Fri Sep 09, 2011 1:56 pm

Zealous wrote:I don't know Dani.

Neverkusen showed in 2002 that when used correctly a 4-1-4-1 formation is quite deadly.

Although whether this Germany can pull it off is a different issue.

Its fine is you have the players for it, but I dont think Germany do.

Bastian as the lone holding player and best defensive player in the midfield? Not for me.

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Post by VivaStPauli Fri Sep 09, 2011 2:14 pm

Hinges a lot on the defensive work of the wingers and the 2nd AM imho, could work with Müller & Götze.
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Post by dostoevsky Fri Sep 09, 2011 2:30 pm

Germany exhibited in the World Cup that their wingers had the discipline and work rate required when possession as lost, however I would still opt for either Bender or Khedira next to Schweinsteiger as the more defensive player, simply due to the nature of tournament football, it's simply the pragmatist in me. If you need to go for the throat, you have the time when it matters. Kroos in the second attacking midfield slot can be effective, however there's no real need to adopt the extra risk. The Brazil match isn't a particularly useful example in my eyes due to the personnel who were used; the opposition was effectively incapable of holding possession and were extremely susceptible to pressure.
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Post by shreek Fri Sep 09, 2011 2:43 pm

dostoevsky wrote:Germany exhibited in the World Cup that their wingers had the discipline and work rate required when possession as lost, however I would still opt for either Bender or Khedira next to Schweinsteiger as the more defensive player, simply due to the nature of tournament football, it's simply the pragmatist in me. If you need to go for the throat, you have the time when it matters. Kroos in the second attacking midfield slot can be effective, however there's no real need to adopt the extra risk. The Brazil match isn't a particularly useful example in my eyes due to the personnel who were used; the opposition was effectively incapable of holding possession and were extremely susceptible to pressure.
+1
exactly what i meant, you said it better
why take extra risk sacrificing khedira or bender for kroos or gotze?
what's the good of that? is the gain worth the risk?
germany will have to pay expensive price if not prudent enough

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Post by shreek Fri Sep 09, 2011 2:57 pm

VivaStPauli wrote:
shreek wrote:
last year at world cup cesc is a much more established and proven player than kroos or gotze is now, but spain didn't hesitate to bench him and use him as a sub

Apples and oranges.
my point is it's a very big mistake by germany for play kroos or gotze instead or khedira or bender if the reason is because kroos and gotze is viewed as too good to be benched, unless there is better reason for doing so which I don't see
i don't see obvious weakness in using khedira or bender that will be magically solved by using kroos or gotze, it even more likely weakens germany defensively

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Post by VivaStPauli Fri Sep 09, 2011 3:09 pm

Of course it weakens Germany defensively. It's a huge gamble. But I don't think the idea is that Götze is too good to be benched, but that if Germany presses high enough up the pitch, a second DM just wouldn't be needed.
At least that's how Löw said it. He just thinks a 6th defensive player is one too many, that's the rationale.

I agree that it's a risk, but it might be worth it under certain circumstances.
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Post by shreek Fri Sep 09, 2011 3:36 pm

it's only be 6 defensive player on paper
on the pitch they can participate in attack when needed
it's not like Schweinsteiger and Khedira or Bender incapable of doing attacking
but their presence will give germany much better guarantee defensively that will make a big difference in big tournament
if loew is so desperately want to play one of kroos or gotze, dropping one of podolski or mueller will likely cause less damage than dropping khedira or bender

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Post by VivaStPauli Fri Sep 09, 2011 3:40 pm

Of course it is, but it's also no huge mystery that Götze or Kroos at AM offer more attacking power than an auxilliary Bender or Khedira would.

I agree with you that it's probably enough and you really don't need the pure attacking power of the 4-1-4-1, but it would be sweet if it actually worked. I think we all are kind of skeptical of whether it's worth the risk in knock-out tournaments.
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Post by Babun Fri Sep 09, 2011 5:42 pm

shreek wrote:
dostoevsky wrote:Germany exhibited in the World Cup that their wingers had the discipline and work rate required when possession as lost, however I would still opt for either Bender or Khedira next to Schweinsteiger as the more defensive player, simply due to the nature of tournament football, it's simply the pragmatist in me. If you need to go for the throat, you have the time when it matters. Kroos in the second attacking midfield slot can be effective, however there's no real need to adopt the extra risk. The Brazil match isn't a particularly useful example in my eyes due to the personnel who were used; the opposition was effectively incapable of holding possession and were extremely susceptible to pressure.
+1
exactly what i meant, you said it better
why take extra risk sacrificing khedira or bender for kroos or gotze?
what's the good of that? is the gain worth the risk?
germany will have to pay expensive price if not prudent enough
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