Khedira the overrated...

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Post by paperbackwriter Sun Aug 21, 2011 11:50 am

Don't get me wrong, I don't dislike Khedira. He's a decent footballer. Very versatile. But he's kind of a Raúl in the midfield. Not a 10 in anything but a 7 in most areas. He's not awesome in defense and he's not awesome in attack. He's just there with his great work rate and keeps things ticking. Having a great work rate shouldn't be enough to be a Real Madrid starter, it should be a given when you work for the white shirt.

I really hope Mou have Sahin written down as "Khedira competition" in his notebook. Because, from what I've seen, he's very much the kind of player which is needed. He's no worse than Khedira in defense, granted he don't have Khediras physique but imo being large against Barca for example is actually a problem rather than a benefit. Khedira just looks clumsy when faced against Iniesta, Xavi and Messi. Sahin got a much lower point of gravity and is much more mobile. And in attack we can't really compare them, at all. Sahin is a former ACM turned DLM/CM. During his breakthrough he was called a new Zidane. And it's no wonder considering his technique and ability with the ball. He got Xabis knack for long balls, combined with Özils ability in limited space.

I think that Sahin over Khedira will make a great difference for the team in terms of ability in possession and general fluidity. Where Khedira doesn't wreck anything but not really contribute either, Sahin will be a monster in terms of creativity.
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Post by EarlyPrototype Sun Aug 21, 2011 11:56 am

Did you just compare Khedira to Raul? Suspect
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Post by EarlyPrototype Sun Aug 21, 2011 11:58 am

Khedira will lose his place to Sahin in the 4231, but in the classicos they could still play together in a 433 if that formation is even used.
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Post by Senor Penguin Sun Aug 21, 2011 12:03 pm

EarlyPrototype wrote:Did you just compare Khedira to Raul? Suspect
And did he just call Khedira overrated? Suspect

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Post by ÖMARz Sun Aug 21, 2011 12:09 pm

I think youve got some things a little messed up. Sahin is xabis competition. Khedira only has coentrao to worry about imo

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Post by guest7 Sun Aug 21, 2011 12:18 pm

Khedira is great in attack, but his defence is lacking. In his battle versus Iniesta he lost alot of times.
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Post by Guest Sun Aug 21, 2011 12:22 pm

Khedira is very good actually. Barca is just a bad matchup for him in the midfield (he's not alone there lol). He needs a highly technical player next to him to truly blossom... Sahin will offer that.

I actually like him a lot.

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Post by Onyx Sun Aug 21, 2011 12:49 pm

Khedira should just play DM with Sahin and Ozil at CM.

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Post by Doc Sun Aug 21, 2011 1:17 pm

Sportsczy on 75, TMO on 50, what exactly you guys doing?
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Post by paperbackwriter Sun Aug 21, 2011 2:26 pm

ÖMARz wrote:I think youve got some things a little messed up. Sahin is xabis competition. Khedira only has coentrao to worry about imo

Sahin is a CM and Khedira is a CM, or a box to box midfielder. Xabi is a DM/DLP who sit just in front of his defenders and build attacks. Sahin, tactically, compete with Khedira since he needs a player who play behind him in midfield. Just as Khedira does. The difference is that Sahin have some world class abilities in his passing, technique and vision. While Khedira is more of a "jack of all trades" or as I wrote in m initial post, a 7/10 in most areas but not 10/10 in anything. He's not a world class passer, shooter or dribbler. And he's not world class in defense. But he does it all decently to good.

Sahin is at the same level defensively, not a pure DM. But great work rate and a decent ball winner.
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Post by paperbackwriter Sun Aug 21, 2011 2:28 pm

mtfootball wrote:Khedira should just play DM with Sahin and Ozil at CM.

Except Khedira isn't a DM...
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Post by Guest Sun Aug 21, 2011 2:31 pm

Doc wrote:Sportsczy on 75, TMO on 50, what exactly you guys doing?

Was having a little bit of fun and insulted someone... what else is new for me lol?

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Post by Onyx Sun Aug 21, 2011 2:49 pm

paperbackwriter wrote:
mtfootball wrote:Khedira should just play DM with Sahin and Ozil at CM.

Except Khedira isn't a DM...

He can play DM and has everything to succeed in that position.

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Post by Guest Sun Aug 21, 2011 3:00 pm

Actually Sahin played as a B2B for Borussia.

Technically speaking and tactically Khedira is one of the best in the team at intercepting and reading the lines of play. Very underrated in this regard.

But Sahin is alot better, I would love to see a midfield trio of Sahin Khedira and Xabi

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Post by Guest Sun Aug 21, 2011 3:03 pm

Crimson wrote:Actually Sahin played as a B2B for Borussia.

Technically speaking and tactically Khedira is one of the best in the team at intercepting and reading the lines of play. Very underrated in this regard.

But Sahin is alot better, I would love to see a midfield trio of Sahin Khedira and Xabi

I think we need to get these 3 on the field together honestly. I don't like the imbalance of a 4-2-3-1 against better midfields.

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Post by Guest Sun Aug 21, 2011 3:27 pm

sportsczy wrote:
Crimson wrote:Actually Sahin played as a B2B for Borussia.

Technically speaking and tactically Khedira is one of the best in the team at intercepting and reading the lines of play. Very underrated in this regard.

But Sahin is alot better, I would love to see a midfield trio of Sahin Khedira and Xabi

I think we need to get these 3 on the field together honestly. I don't like the imbalance of a 4-2-3-1 against better midfields.

Yup a front three of Ronaldo/DiMaria/Callejon, Ozil/Kaka and Benzema/Higuain would be excellent, then you would have Altintop(when he comes back), Varane, Pepe, Kaka and Coentrao to augment the midfield when/if needed.

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Post by paperbackwriter Sun Aug 21, 2011 4:14 pm

Barcelona have the best central midfield in the world, with a large margin. I'm not really impressed with any other top teams midfield atm to be honest. I'd rate us as second with the Khedira/Sahin, Xabi and Özil combo. Inter and Bayern have good midfields aswell... In the two supercup games I think we showed that we can challenge Barcelona all over the field. I don't see the point in removing attacking force to reinforce the midfield... We're gonna be better this year, as shown against Barcelona, translating into higher pressure and more ball possession while facing deeper defenses. All the attacking firepower that we can handle is necessary.

And Özil shouldn't be cut the slack of learning the ACM position properly, he's a bright kid, he'll develop if he's made to play the midfield role rather than playing as a SS/free role/winger. Long term, that's what we need him to become. A great attacking midfielder who can come deep and help out aswell as finish of chances and playing in a more advanced position.
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Post by crazzyblanco Sun Aug 21, 2011 4:34 pm

khedira managed pretty well at the bernabeu...calling him overrated is just going over the top...he offers the physical presence against teams like bilbao...havent seen sahin play so cant comment on him...but khedira is an important cog in our midfield
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Post by Mr Nick09 Sun Aug 21, 2011 4:47 pm

paperbackwriter wrote:Barcelona have the best central midfield in the world, with a large margin. I'm not really impressed with any other top teams midfield atm to be honest. I'd rate us as second with the Khedira/Sahin, Xabi and Özil combo. Inter and Bayern have good midfields aswell... In the two supercup games I think we showed that we can challenge Barcelona all over the field. I don't see the point in removing attacking force to reinforce the midfield... We're gonna be better this year, as shown against Barcelona, translating into higher pressure and more ball possession while facing deeper defenses. All the attacking firepower that we can handle is necessary.

And Özil shouldn't be cut the slack of learning the ACM position properly, he's a bright kid, he'll develop if he's made to play the midfield role rather than playing as a SS/free role/winger. Long term, that's what we need him to become. A great attacking midfielder who can come deep and help out aswell as finish of chances and playing in a more advanced position.

Dude, no team can hold that comparison to be honest. When i so often mention us adding a CM, it's because i am aware of that, and i feel like having one more technical midfielder in an area where we will always have to be competent against barca, is a must. As opposed to having Kaka who is a one dimensional AM with unimpressive work rate. Even Ozil is making efforts in that area. I often say that you dont beat barcelona because you have world class midfielders, it doesnt matter sometimes, it's a matter of style. If you have technically gifted midfielders that can hold possession and quality vision enough to make a through ball, that extra seconds of possession you will get from the deep midfield will see them back off.

Completely agree about Ozil btw.

I made quite a lenghty post the other which i quote here so you can have my answer about the 433 mentioned earlier.

Let's think this through a little.

Ronaldo deserves some blame for the way he goes at players and corner himself, sure, that's how we have seen him play all along.

But if he did it so often in the clasico with no adjustment from Mou, then i have to deduce that he is following the plot, which is to attack straight down to wing, and providing the option, cut in or cross.

We have been able to retain more possession that usual, but we also bypassed the midfield quite lot in the build up of our attacks. To bring the ball out of the defense, we were mainly using passes along the touch line, or crossfield passes to the opposite wingers, Ronaldo or Di Maria, which resulted in those solo runs we saw.

Very few times did Pepe or Carvalho used the CM's to bring the ball out. In the very same way, When Ronaldo was running down the wing, important is to note that he was forcing down the whole barca team, the midfield was providing the best form of support, which in turn made it difficult for Ronaldo to back pass.

It's a whole support system which is at fault here. Mourinho's reluctance to play Ozil in a deeper role, closer to the CMs to improve that midfield control, proved hurtful in those periods of play we didnt like. And Alonso and Khedira's lack of technical skills on the ball dont always make them the preferred option to pass to in a crowded area.

So to me it comes down to a team tactic, our lack of control in the mid can be a little hurtful to own our game, there is no doubt ronaldo lost way too many 1v1 but i also blame the tactic.

My belief is that with an heavier midfield, 3 men, players that support the forwards just by making runs forward in the box and creating options for the cross. Instead of committing per default 4 men to attack, we do 3, and having support runs from say, Sahin and Khedira, we have the ability of creating unpredictable set ups in attack.

One other thing i saw people complaining about was the lack of runs. Well, to make runs, you need a player deep in the middle commanding the ball and monitoring things, which is something we arent doing, a drawback from playing Ozil as a CF/SS. 3-man midfield would facilitate that. It's easier for a midfield to retain possession when they have quick passing options they can differ to. A line of 3, plus wingbacks coming up on both sides, the wingers making themselves available, and a CF coming deep, increase significantly those passing options and makes it easy for the CMs to move the ball around. The longer you can hold the ball in the midfield the more dangerous you get, and runs can be made. It's the whole point of having midfield control, you suck pressure in, and the midfield can make the right passes in spaces to forwards making runs.

And last but not least, the defending aspect of a 3-man midfield would make our high tempo, high pressure style even deadlier. THe way we would occupy space, with support from corner players in both attack and defense, will create easy double teams, without breaking formation and pulling a defender way out of position without someone covering him.

I truly hope mourinho put it in motion with Sahin coming back, it's the most important step forward we can make imo. We have figure out the style we need to have defensively, now we need to match it with the formation. Our strength will come from the fact that we have midfielders that can attack, press and defend both, while we had quality, intelligence and passing from the midfield area.
by St_Nick09_of_Goal
on Fri Aug 19, 2011 6:59 am

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Post by Babun Sun Aug 21, 2011 5:07 pm

St_Nick09_of_Goal wrote:
Completely agree about Ozil btw.

I made quite a lenghty post the other which i quote here so you can have my answer about the 433 mentioned earlier.

Let's think this through a little.

Ronaldo deserves some blame for the way he goes at players and corner himself, sure, that's how we have seen him play all along.

But if he did it so often in the clasico with no adjustment from Mou, then i have to deduce that he is following the plot, which is to attack straight down to wing, and providing the option, cut in or cross.

We have been able to retain more possession that usual, but we also bypassed the midfield quite lot in the build up of our attacks. To bring the ball out of the defense, we were mainly using passes along the touch line, or crossfield passes to the opposite wingers, Ronaldo or Di Maria, which resulted in those solo runs we saw.

Very few times did Pepe or Carvalho used the CM's to bring the ball out. In the very same way, When Ronaldo was running down the wing, important is to note that he was forcing down the whole barca team, the midfield was providing the best form of support, which in turn made it difficult for Ronaldo to back pass.

It's a whole support system which is at fault here. Mourinho's reluctance to play Ozil in a deeper role, closer to the CMs to improve that midfield control, proved hurtful in those periods of play we didnt like. And Alonso and Khedira's lack of technical skills on the ball dont always make them the preferred option to pass to in a crowded area.

So to me it comes down to a team tactic, our lack of control in the mid can be a little hurtful to own our game, there is no doubt ronaldo lost way too many 1v1 but i also blame the tactic.

My belief is that with an heavier midfield, 3 men, players that support the forwards just by making runs forward in the box and creating options for the cross. Instead of committing per default 4 men to attack, we do 3, and having support runs from say, Sahin and Khedira, we have the ability of creating unpredictable set ups in attack.

One other thing i saw people complaining about was the lack of runs. Well, to make runs, you need a player deep in the middle commanding the ball and monitoring things, which is something we arent doing, a drawback from playing Ozil as a CF/SS. 3-man midfield would facilitate that. It's easier for a midfield to retain possession when they have quick passing options they can differ to. A line of 3, plus wingbacks coming up on both sides, the wingers making themselves available, and a CF coming deep, increase significantly those passing options and makes it easy for the CMs to move the ball around. The longer you can hold the ball in the midfield the more dangerous you get, and runs can be made. It's the whole point of having midfield control, you suck pressure in, and the midfield can make the right passes in spaces to forwards making runs.

And last but not least, the defending aspect of a 3-man midfield would make our high tempo, high pressure style even deadlier. THe way we would occupy space, with support from corner players in both attack and defense, will create easy double teams, without breaking formation and pulling a defender way out of position without someone covering him.

I truly hope mourinho put it in motion with Sahin coming back, it's the most important step forward we can make imo. We have figure out the style we need to have defensively, now we need to match it with the formation. Our strength will come from the fact that we have midfielders that can attack, press and defend both, while we had quality, intelligence and passing from the midfield area.
by St_Nick09_of_Goal
on Fri Aug 19, 2011 6:59 am


Nick, I was busy with I-no the other days and didn't notice your post Very Happy Your post makes sense in theory and that's it Very Happy
Benz and Ozil were pressing in upper midfield against Farca in turns, you couldn't have him 'deeper' otherwise Benz would've been exhausted after some 50 minutes Very Happy
CR7 had a lot responsibility in attack because of that but he didn't live up to expectations Very Happy
His selfish act ruined all the buildups in attack where he had more freedom than other 3 Very Happy
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Post by Mr Nick09 Sun Aug 21, 2011 5:46 pm

babun1024 wrote:
Nick, I was busy with I-no the other days and didn't notice your post Very Happy Your post makes sense in theory and that's it Very Happy
Benz and Ozil were pressing in upper midfield against Farca in turns, you couldn't have him 'deeper' otherwise Benz would've been exhausted after some 50 minutes Very Happy
CR7 had a lot responsibility in attack because of that but he didn't live up to expectations Very Happy
His selfish act ruined all the buildups in attack where he had more freedom than other 3 Very Happy

Well, yeah, it's a theoretical excerpt, i dont expect it to be perfect.

The answer i would give you to is that, with a 3-man midfield, one of them can slide a little forward to put the choke on Busquets. having one man that can detach himself from the 3 man unit and go up or down to add number to whichever line is a nice trait no?
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Post by Babun Sun Aug 21, 2011 5:50 pm

St_Nick09_of_Goal wrote:
babun1024 wrote:
Nick, I was busy with I-no the other days and didn't notice your post Very Happy Your post makes sense in theory and that's it Very Happy
Benz and Ozil were pressing in upper midfield against Farca in turns, you couldn't have him 'deeper' otherwise Benz would've been exhausted after some 50 minutes Very Happy
CR7 had a lot responsibility in attack because of that but he didn't live up to expectations Very Happy
His selfish act ruined all the buildups in attack where he had more freedom than other 3 Very Happy

Well, yeah, it's a theoretical excerpt, i dont expect it to be perfect.

The answer i would give you to is that, with a 3-man midfield, one of them can slide a little forward to put the choke on Busquets. having one man that can detach himself from the 3 man unit and go up or down to add number to whichever line is a nice trait no?
Ozil was doing it Very Happy Watch the match if don't believe me Very Happy We had more room through the wings but CR7 choked Very Happy Di Maria was totally disappointing as well...
I'm awaiting Neymar's arrival with open arms otherwise we'll lose the upcoming encounters as well, I fear Very Happy
We need someone more productive on the wing than CR7 in 90 minutes...
C'mon the other FLo, make it happen! :lol!:
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Post by Onyx Sun Aug 21, 2011 5:53 pm

How about Benzema on either wing with Higuain CF?

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Post by Babun Sun Aug 21, 2011 5:55 pm

mtfootball wrote:How about Benzema on either wing with Higuain CF?
Higgy from 2009? Yeah, why not Very Happy I don't like Benz as CF either, he can't head a free header to save his life. If he is so much of a creater and wants the ball at his feet when facing towards opponents goal then either wings seem like a better solution Very Happy


Last edited by babun1024 on Sun Aug 21, 2011 5:56 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Post by Guest Sun Aug 21, 2011 5:56 pm

babun1024 wrote:
St_Nick09_of_Goal wrote:
babun1024 wrote:
Nick, I was busy with I-no the other days and didn't notice your post Very Happy Your post makes sense in theory and that's it Very Happy
Benz and Ozil were pressing in upper midfield against Farca in turns, you couldn't have him 'deeper' otherwise Benz would've been exhausted after some 50 minutes Very Happy
CR7 had a lot responsibility in attack because of that but he didn't live up to expectations Very Happy
His selfish act ruined all the buildups in attack where he had more freedom than other 3 Very Happy

Well, yeah, it's a theoretical excerpt, i dont expect it to be perfect.

The answer i would give you to is that, with a 3-man midfield, one of them can slide a little forward to put the choke on Busquets. having one man that can detach himself from the 3 man unit and go up or down to add number to whichever line is a nice trait no?
Ozil was doing it Very Happy Watch the match if don't believe me Very Happy We had more room through the wings but CR7 choked Very Happy Di Maria was totally disappointing as well...
I'm awaiting Neymar's arrival with open arms otherwise we'll lose the upcoming encounters as well, I fear Very Happy
We need someone more productive on the wing than CR7 in 90 minutes...
C'mon the other FLo, make it happen! :lol!:

Moving Benz to the left, CR7 to CF and keep Ozil where he is. We don't need to do more than this. Benz is better than CR7 at creating and linking with teammates. Even if CR7 doesn't want to do this full time, he can at least agree to it v. Barca. Frankly, we don't need it for any other opponent.

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