The Netherlands

rwo power wrote:Any idea why they don't play well anymore?

it seemed to start after the world cup game with spain. they seemed to move from playing football to trying to kick spain out of the game. the football that the dutch were famous for has gone. bit like brazil. they seen to play more like a europian team now.

True, I remember that final against Spain, and I was a bit taken aback then, too. One can but hope then that they will return to their former playing ways in the future.

rwo power wrote:True, I remember that final against Spain, and I was a bit taken aback then, too. One can but hope then that they will return to their former playing ways in the future.

i agree mate. i am a englishman but i still like to see countrys like holland play good football. they have never won a world cup but for the size of the country and the population. they produce more talent than anyone. they need to talk with the managment about going back to what they are good at.

rwo power wrote:Any idea why they don't play well anymore?

Poor management and a notable drop in the overall quality of the squad. Despite high expectations most of the younger generation has failed to reach the potential or translate it to the international stage to adequately replace those that have retired or aged-out of the international scene. The frontline has arguably suffered this the least but without service and support from behind, there's little they can do.

It doesn't help that the past couple of managers have been, in my opinion, incredibly poor choices made by a group scared to take a risk and instead opting for the known, "safe," and (as we're seeing) mediocre option.

Unique wrote:

rwo power wrote:Any idea why they don't play well anymore?

it seemed to start after the world cup game with spain. they seemed to move from playing football to trying to kick spain out of the game. the football that the dutch were famous for has gone. bit like brazil. they seen to play more like a europian team now.

Bit of a myth, this. The Dutch have never really shied away from the philosophical embrace of the physical side of the game even in their heyday, though the players at times were unable or unwilling to compete on that particular facet of the game. And the Dutch's greatest successes in modern times have come under that supposedly more pragmatic approach...

And even then, when given the chance by the opponent/occasion the Dutch would still play some of their recognizable flowing and attacking football under van Basten and van Marwijk. The issue arose with the decline in overall player quality and return to dressing-room issues under more recent managers.

I think it's no surprise whatsoever that we're seeing earlier issues arise under the return of earlier managers.

RedOranje wrote:

rwo power wrote:Any idea why they don't play well anymore?

Poor management and a notable drop in the overall quality of the squad. Despite high expectations most of the younger generation has failed to reach the potential or translate it to the international stage to adequately replace those that have retired or aged-out of the international scene. The frontline has arguably suffered this the least but without service and support from behind, there's little they can do.

It doesn't help that the past couple of managers have been, in my opinion, incredibly poor choices made by a group scared to take a risk and instead opting for the known, "safe," and (as we're seeing) mediocre option.

Unique wrote:

rwo power wrote:Any idea why they don't play well anymore?

it seemed to start after the world cup game with spain. they seemed to move from playing football to trying to kick spain out of the game. the football that the dutch were famous for has gone. bit like brazil. they seen to play more like a europian team now.

Bit of a myth, this. The Dutch have never really shied away from the philosophical embrace of the physical side of the game even in their heyday, though the players at times were unable or unwilling to compete on that particular facet of the game. And the Dutch's greatest successes in modern times have come under that supposedly more pragmatic approach...

And even then, when given the chance by the opponent/occasion the Dutch would still play some of their recognizable flowing and attacking football under van Basten and van Marwijk. The issue arose with the decline in overall player quality and return to dressing-room issues under more recent managers.

I think it's no surprise whatsoever that we're seeing earlier issues arise under the return of earlier managers.

tbh i think hiddink is a great coach. not sure why it didnt work out for him. before liverpool got rodgers i was hopeing we would get him. but as you say players like seedorf. davids. overmars. bergkamp de boer brothers are long gone. what a player ronald de boer was. great tallent.

Hiddink has run into a bit of trouble in the past decade or so of his managerial career, despite an impressive career prior to that. He just doesn't look the same manager he did before.

On top of that, I think it's generally a very bad idea to go back to the past with managerial choices, bar certain extenuating circumstances. In the case of the Dutch, I think we're seeing a glaring example of its potential to go wrong.


Honestly though, I maintain that that's really only half of the problem. The fact is that the Dutch just have an uncommonly mediocre pool of players currently available while some other international sides concurrently have uncommonly great teams (Belgium, Wales, etc). The back 7 today bar Blind, for example, just don't measure up to their predecessors really while the frontline is an odd mix of aging-on-the-verge-of-past-peak and young-not-experienced-enough players who can't quite produce the type of quality needed to lift the whole side.

Even a fully fit and firing Strootman probably wouldn't be enough to bring this team back up to a truly competitive level, though his absence is definitely being felt.

RedOranje wrote:Even a fully fit and firing Strootman probably wouldn't be enough to bring this team back up to a truly competitive level, though his absence is definitely being felt.

i agree. he is a big miss.

RedOranje wrote:Poor management and a notable drop in the overall quality of the squad.  Despite high expectations most of the younger generation has failed to reach the potential or translate it to the international stage to adequately replace those that have retired or aged-out of the international scene.  The frontline has arguably suffered this the least but without service and support from behind, there's little they can do.

From the names in the squad, they should probably play better than they do for the Netherlands, IMO. Does the Dutch NT sport some certain philosophy, by the way? If one listens to Jogi Löw's statements, he always talks about how he wants his team to play etc - are there any statements of the Dutch coach what he actually tries to let his team play?

rwo power wrote:Does the Dutch NT sport some certain philosophy, by the way? If one listens to Jogi Löw's statements, he always talks about how he wants his team to play etc - are there any statements of the Dutch coach what he actually tries to let his team play?

tbf. the german team is like having 11 terminators on the pitch. the mission is to win. and it dont matter if they play good or bad they allways seem to compleat the mission.

rwo power wrote:

RedOranje wrote:Poor management and a notable drop in the overall quality of the squad.  Despite high expectations most of the younger generation has failed to reach the potential or translate it to the international stage to adequately replace those that have retired or aged-out of the international scene.  The frontline has arguably suffered this the least but without service and support from behind, there's little they can do.

From the names in the squad, they should probably play better than they do for the Netherlands, IMO. Does the Dutch NT sport some certain philosophy, by the way? If one listens to Jogi Löw's statements, he always talks about how he wants his team to play etc - are there any statements of the Dutch coach what he actually tries to let his team play?

Better, perhaps, but not a great deal so.  The goalkeepers, centerbacks, fullbacks, and most of the midfielders are simply not that great at the moment.  Many are living off of potential and hype from when they were younger that they've so far failed to live up to.  

On the other side of things, pragmatism has been the buzzword for recent managers.  Under both LvG and Hiddink the Dutch team has looked largely disjointed and short of creativity and fluidity.  

As I said, I'd issue blame pretty evenly between managerial leadership and player levels.  If you improved one without changing the other you'd see some improvement, but nothing close to the levels people have come to expect from the Dutch.

Don't you think the Dutch FA shares some blame too. I mean the manager choice/appointment is their responsibility. On top of that, may be (I have no idea about Dutch League) they haven't pursued policy that will generate/develop youth talents.

It's a question, not a statement.

Normally the Dutch are among the top countries when it comes to developing young talents - Ajax, Feyenoord etc are praised for their academies after all. It may be that they currently just have a crop of good young players and not extraordinary players around.

bad to worse

Holland and Greece competing who can decline faster.

Art Morte wrote:Holland and Greece competing who can decline faster.

Greece is reverting to their norm, not declining.

Surprised NDJ wasn't called up, they could've used his leadership in defense imo

Greece can decline?

It was a though group.
but anyway it's an olverrated NT ( Sneijder and RVP are finished ) carried by Van Gaal in WC, nothing new.
It was enough to watch the WC to realize it.
The Cruijff and the other purist Dutchfaces haven't realized that negative gamestyle was the only way to get the better with this NT ?

RedOranje wrote:

Art Morte wrote:Holland and Greece competing who can decline faster.

Greece is reverting to their norm, not declining.

If that norm is European champions, then okay.

According to Sport Mediaset, Holland are entertaining the idea of hiring Seedorf

Apparently, Jacob and Wilhelm Grimm are now managing Holland.

What twisted fairy tale is this?!

Depay looks like the best Dutch forward tonight

van Gaal and Capello in the stands lmao

I wonder, what the hell is Rijkaard doing these days?

Why doesn't he feel some responsibility for his ailing country?

Not much any man can do to save the severe lack of talent coming through for them at the moment tbf.

Can't believe a guy like Eder is actually playing for the Italian NT

Atrocious stuff