Spain NT discussion

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Post by futbol_bill Wed Dec 07, 2022 12:39 am

BarcaLearning wrote:And as expected Spain produces nothing. Sorry Enrique, this reality should have been realized long ago Razz Thats what happens with u start a fraud of a player dating ur daughter for the NT above any other decent attack... also Asensio as the CF is a joke... pretty sure Enrique should move on now, after all these yrs with the NT to produce this joke of a team Razz

When Alba remain ur most effective assist maker something is really wrong. Pedri I think has had a disappointing WC in particular...


Lol, Barca, you don’t know what you are talking about? You can blame Luis Enrique for taking too many kids and for not taking Ramos and Thiago, but other than that, he had no choice with his selection. Yes we would rather not have Asensio, Ferran, Olmo, Morata, Williams etc, but the fact of the matter there isn’t anyone better. It really true thru out the lineup. We simply have not produced any break out star in last 5 -10 years.

As to playing style, he did change it from tiki taca possession style to a more direct possession style. Take a look at the number of chances! It the lack of scoring forwards that is the issue and it has been that way for 10 years now.

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Post by farfan Wed Dec 07, 2022 1:04 am

I don't think Spain created enough chances Bill hmm The possession looked very sterile to me and the underlying stats reflect that. Expected goals after 90 minutes:

Morocco (0.35) 0-0 (0.61) Spain
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Post by FennecFox7 Wed Dec 07, 2022 2:54 am

Spain created nothing but I see what bill is getting at. The problem was morata. He’s just such an average player man, he lacks physicality and end product. I seriously think he was better when he was younger versus now. Spain got into dangerous positions but the final ball was lacking. I wouldn’t blame Enrique at all. He is a fantastic coach with an excellent track record.

The morrocan defense and bono deserve much more credit from you guys. They were out of this world. Bono is just an animal man, he’s one of the best keepers in La liga for sure.

Overall I’m just so happy for my dad and I’s country (im half morrocan) to get this far. Incredible feeling
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Post by FennecFox7 Wed Dec 07, 2022 2:56 am

I’m not with the doom and gloom here. Spain have a fantastic team full of talented players. You have to remember they are very young and to an extent, just not developed to their full potential.
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Post by Doc Wed Dec 07, 2022 3:00 am

Not sure why Bill thought that midfield that struggled to have any meaningful impact vs any top team at club level would, all of a sudden, perform vs tough sides internationally.

Alas, this is his country and I could imagine his annoyance at yet another r16 KO so old man Bill, tough luck my friend.
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Post by danyjr Wed Dec 07, 2022 5:24 am

Underwhelming World Cup and it was expected. Luis Enrique needs to go.

Don't tell me Spain's problem was a lack of CF when Morocco had En-freaking-Nesyri and Sabiri. Morata is better than both of them combined.
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Post by El Gunner Wed Dec 07, 2022 6:57 am

FennecFox7 wrote:I’m not with the doom and gloom here. Spain have a fantastic team full of talented players. You have to remember they are very young and to an extent, just not developed to their full potential.

in four years' time they'll experience the same result as long as they continue to insist on a bygone tika taka era without the genius of Xavi and Iniesta
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Post by Arquitecto Wed Dec 07, 2022 10:09 am

Heartbroken.

I feel we played the best football in the tournament to date and to lose against a side like Morocco is bittersweet. On one hand it's not a rival on the other it's a team we should have gone through. 1000s of penalty practices only to not score a single one. On field Morocco played the perfect compact bank to shore away any mismatched attack and credit to them.

But Im happy for Morocco as lots of beautiful stories out of the team and I will route for them, naturally.

4 years..is a long time to wait for the next world cup. I can't be interested anymore beyond this defeat.
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Post by El Gunner Wed Dec 07, 2022 10:59 am

best football my ass Laughing
although i did like the play against Germany, just need a De Bruyne/Bruno-type that's willing to take risks and a real goal scorer for your next world cup
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Post by Myesyats Wed Dec 07, 2022 11:29 am

1000 passes with two shots on target through 120 minutes is terrorism even for an avid Pep fanboy

I’m surprised Lucho didn’t instruct his players to invite more pressure and hit on the counters, at Barca he was very much willing to do that

But nonetheless this Spain side has too many  youngsters paired with oldies in their twilight. Not a healthy balance of youth and experience. And most of all not enough quality, in the natural comparison with Portugal who have many stars and more established players and just overall way more quality in every position.

There’s actually no comparison between Bernardo/Bruno vs Pedri/Gavi who are kids, and Leao/Felix/Ramos/Ronaldo vs Ferran/Olmo/Asensio/Fati/Nico

The gap is very substantial, Ferran and Asensio aren’t even starters in their clubs
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Post by rincon Wed Dec 07, 2022 9:23 pm

Best football in the tournament Laughing

Without a doubt the worst style of any of the big or medium teams in the tournament. 1000 pass to create one shot on goal is the most sterile Spain has ever been. I had some hope that Luis Enrique would make Spain play more like his Barca but instead he made them play like his Roma.

There is nothing more pointless than what they did against Morocco and it started with his squad list. Even Uruguay played more exciting matches. Each CB had 200 passes, and for what? A caricature of tiki-taka.
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Post by Casciavit Wed Dec 07, 2022 9:48 pm

Spain’s issue is more talent than coaching. They’ve never been special from a physical perspective, but they’ve compensated by having higher technical levels.

Most big teams would’ve had +65% possession against Morocco. Morocco parked the bus and blocked off the centre. No coach in the world wants his CB’s to hit 200 passes in a game.

They didn’t play sterile possession because they wanted to. They played sterile possession because they had no other way to play.

They don’t have a De Bruyne in midfield who gambles on the ball with through balls or shots from edge of the box. They didn’t have an Iniesta who could dribble centrally to break the opposition midfield line. They don’t have any pacey dribbling wingers who could help unlock the defensive block from the wings. They didn’t have that clinical striker up top who could take the chance when they got it.

There was just a dearth of attacking quality. Building around Barca’s core isn’t a bad strategy. You benefit because they’re bringing with them the chemistry they have from their club side. It worked great in 2010.

However in 2022, grandpa Busquets and two teenagers probably won’t get the job done against stubborn teams. Pedri and Gavi are both talented but it’s rare you see one 18 year old start in midfield let alone two. I actually can’t remember the last time an 18 year old was leading a big team midfield. Was Fabregas the last one?

Morocco did what they had to do to even out the odds and they were able to bring it to penalties. From there it’s a coin toss or a question of mentality, depending on what you believe.

I don’t think countries should veer away from their footballing philosophies too much. One of Germany’s biggest mistakes was trying to play like Spain in the last decade. Spain should still aim to play a proactive game. However tikinaccio just won’t work with these group of players. They need to find a new balance in the team and the constant obsession with ball retention merchants isn’t the way forward unless they hit another golden generation.
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Post by Casciavit Wed Dec 07, 2022 9:52 pm

Structurally Spain looked the best side. They looked like a club team at times. However you need players who can add chaos in the final third. Especially when you’re up against a stubborn team defending compact and deep. They didn’t have any. At least no one who can do so at a high level.
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Post by futbol_bill Thu Dec 08, 2022 1:12 am

I agree completely with Casciavit, and that is as a Spaniard who has followed seleccion for years. I’ve been saying most of this for several months. Luis Enrique is not the problem, actually quite the opposite. He isn’t trying to play the tiki taca of old, his version is much more direct. He has worked out about 50 to 60 players can be used! In other words every time they have gotten together he has introduced or found someone new that can fit into what he wants.

The issue is the talent isn’t there! Yes he has lots of choices, but nothing is better (with 2 exceptions i’ll mention later) than what he selected. There just isn’t any break out star in entire country. Lots of players playing, but majority are bench players or they are kids still developing. The two exceptions, I mention are Ramos and Thiago. Both are proven veterans and would have given more experience. That is all I find Luis Enrique at fault for. But even with those two, this team would not compete with Brasil, France, Portugal. I should include Argentina as well, but I still remain skeptical of them.

In sum, the issue is lack of talent and I fear, it will be same issue in 4 years time unless the kids can develop and in particular besides the midfield we need world class forwards as well.

My other fear is the idiot Rubiales won’t understand the issue and get rid of Enrique. Rumor is he will bring in Marcelino!!!!!
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Post by titosantill Thu Dec 08, 2022 1:54 am

i don't think spain has that big a problem. and if they do, its the same problem that a bunch of teams have. they're in a down cycle; but they have the benefit of being in a league that produces talent. The issue though is, if the cycle picks up again, other teams may also have their cycle around the same period. Spain's exit wasnt a disaster; didn't expect much from them tbh. Germany on the other hand.....
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Post by halamadrid2 Thu Dec 08, 2022 7:15 am

Don't tell me guys like Canales, Aspas and Iglesias amongst others couldn't help or at least given different options to the meh players they have now. Why didn't Enrique do more to integrate Williams. He is their only different player but was reduced to cameo appearances when he should be shoed in starter.

Why is Llorente playing at RB and not in midfield when his skillset is most effective? Why does he play midfielders at CB when he there are gazillion Spanish CBs out there. LE has a warped view of how football should be played hence selects players that fit into this way of playing. For example when he excluded Nacho he said that it was becuase he wasn't as good on the ball as he wanted Laughing and why Asensio starts despite playing a handful of games at RM. Nacho has more knockout success experience than that whole team that played against Morocco. Canales is probably too direct for him. And don't get me started on Ramos rofl

Far too many weaklings in that team too. I mean Morata, Asensio, Pedri and Busquets amongst many more have a weak mentality and would crumble under the slightest bit of pressure. If I was Busquets I'd be livid with Morata for putting me in a situation where I would fail. I mean which teams gets their DM to kick penalties especially before the attackers.
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Post by El Gunner Thu Dec 08, 2022 12:25 pm

Enrique gone, i think it's for the best. Get in a modern day coach, no tiki taka offsprings.
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Post by sportsczy Thu Dec 08, 2022 7:47 pm

I thought Luis Enrique was doing a good job personally. This team wasn't going to win the competition... so there was no point calling up players that had no part to play in Spain NT's future.

I thought he intentionally called up kids to build for future competitions and that was the right move IMO.

You can argue that he went a bit overboard with it... you need a couple of veterans... but you can't deny that he had a plan.

I personally liked the way Spain played and understood his blueprint. It wasn't his fault that Spain lacks a single forward with a killer instinct.

Bad firing imo.
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Post by Cruijf Thu Dec 08, 2022 8:13 pm

Agreed, for a team like Spain that isn’t exactly overflowing with talent at this point, a semi and r16 in two tournaments isn’t the end of the world. He should’ve at least been given a shot at the next Euro.
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Post by FennecFox7 Thu Dec 08, 2022 9:47 pm

danyjr wrote:Underwhelming World Cup and it was expected. Luis Enrique needs to go.

Don't tell me Spain's problem was a lack of CF when Morocco had En-freaking-Nesyri and Sabiri. Morata is better than both of them combined.


All three players are extremely average. No one is denying that

Enrique is a great coach. Spain simply, right now, aren’t good enough. That doesn’t mean that can’t change in the very near future
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Post by BarcaLearning Thu Dec 08, 2022 9:53 pm

Surprised from everyones take, I thought it was pretty obvious he has to go after this WC showing... it was just that bad. Relying on srcubs n at the end of the day it was Morata/Alba/Gavi/Rodri at CB that performed the best, which was bad lol...

The thing is do the Spanish FA want the same thing to continue after so many yrs? It was clear this is the best Enrique can take the team to, its not like he was gonna change or invent something new after so long. So imho same case as like Wenger at Arsenal, Simone at Atletico as examples, its either stagnant or regression if it continued.

Next coach might be worst but I'd still opt for that instead of more of the same.
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Post by El Gunner Thu Dec 08, 2022 10:06 pm

agreed BL... some dudes on here acting as if Enrique has done anything special without MSN

what was the stat again... Spain have only won 3 games in international tournaments since 2012 Euros and it was against some scrubs. Please, change needed, correct decision.
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Post by rincon Thu Dec 08, 2022 10:11 pm

Why is the lack of talent or killer instinct cited? That's not why the last match went the way it did.

Their plan against Morocco was clear and it involved making 500 passes per shot on goal. You dont need David Villa in the team to make a shot. You dont need Iniesta to create a chance. You simply need to take risks.

That is Enrique's fault, besides the amount of kids and omissions of other profiles.

Spain can lose that match, it happens, but you must try to attack and be more direct. He took no risks in the game and it ended as the worst version of what I guess is now called tikinaccio. That is all on him, every other team took more risks.
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Post by danyjr Mon Dec 12, 2022 1:09 pm

The "lack of talent" excuse for Spain again :facepalm:

If you decide to play Ferran Torres and Asensio when you have Aspas and de Tomas, if you decide to call up Eric Garía and Robert Sánchez when you have Ramos, Nacho, De Gea, yet you lose, it is not because you didn't have the talent. It is because you suck as a coach. The whole team's set up and squad were selected purely and obsessively to keep possession. Not every freaking team has a De Bruyne to spam defence splitting passes, but they do alright with whoever they got. Don't tell me Pedri isn't able to be as creative as Selim Amallah Laughing

Morocco could use this "lack of talent" excuse if they lost to Spain, not the other way round.
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Post by danyjr Mon Dec 12, 2022 3:05 pm

Forgot to mention he had the option to call Grimaldo, Angelino, Reguilón, Alonso for the LB spot but opted for Alejandro Balde who doesn't even start for Barça instead. And Nacho could have played there too as he did last year in the CL.

If these aren't signs of a mindbogglingly awful call-up, I don't know what is.
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Post by futbol_bill Mon Dec 12, 2022 3:33 pm

All of names you have mentioned except Ramos. Are only at best marginally better than players chosen. There simply are no break out talents in Spain right now. We are definitely in a down cycle.

I believe Enrique knew we had no chance if winning this WC and went for mostly youth to give them experience. I do agree he took too many youth and that he is biased towards Barca players plus he should have taken Ramos and Thiago. But other than that, any of the choices you mentioned would not have made any difference with the outcome.
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