Spain NT discussion

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Post by messixaviesta Tue Jun 03, 2014 5:29 am

@Doc wrote:I agree with everything bar the Inigo and Carvajal comment. I don't think he outperformed Pique at all. He certainly has reached that level of performance but Pique, when the big spotlight is shining on him, always comes good and any manager (including one as intelligent as Don Vicente) would pick Pique over Inigo.

Carvajal is just not ready for this sort of competition even if it means coming from the bench. Considering he is young, he'll be around for the future though.


So effectively what are we left with? Let me put it in a few key points.

1. As I had discussed with dani some time back merely good club form does not mean an automatic ticket to the world cup. It takes more time in terms of consistently performing for the national team and winning the coach's trust.

2. Llorente is the one I feel worst for. Rather than hijacking Diego Costa we should have trusted him.

3. Navas comes next but I think this last season his form hasn't been good. He could still have been there though.

4. Other than these two there are hardly any players not in the squad who could have started and/or had that much impact from the bench. As for Carvajal I don't want an attacking right back in a team already so full of flair. Defense should be the priority in that position.

5. For making up squad numbers yes a few deserving ones could have been called but that wouldn't really affect the team's fortunes.

6. I did a quick summary of the breakup of the squad and while there are players from many clubs one point that arqui makes very correctly is Del Bosque is only going for the big clubs. That's not the case with some other major national teams though. This is one area which could be improved in future.

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Post by The Franchise Tue Jun 03, 2014 10:01 am

I think most people will agree, Spain need to refresh the squad and infuse some youth and new faces. It MUST happen.

But this isnt the time to do it. They have to truly fail first, before there being any justification for it. Though we all agree, the signs are all there for this being the last ride for a good number of guys, with some really interesting players waiting in the wings.

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Post by messixaviesta Tue Jun 03, 2014 8:34 pm

@The Franchise wrote:I think most people will agree, Spain need to refresh the squad and infuse some youth and new faces. It MUST happen.

But this isnt the time to do it. They have to truly fail first, before there being any justification for it. Though we all agree, the signs are all there for this being the last ride for a good number of guys, with some really interesting players waiting in the wings.


That's probably the best consensus all of us with our varied opinions on this topic can reach.

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Post by BarrileteCosmico Tue Jun 03, 2014 8:48 pm

Old and battered Spain are still easily a top 4 team... By the next WC or even the euros Xavi and xabi won't be starting any more simply due to age.
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Post by RealGunner Tue Jun 03, 2014 8:56 pm

This is the end of the golden generation. Last tournament for quite few of them. Personally, I don't think Spain will win anything till Euro20/WC22. The next generation is talented, but half the players of the current members of the team. Even at their peak I can't see any of them reaching the heights of Xavi, Iniesta, Villa and Pique. They will only dominate once they are well into their 20s and develop a great understanding with each other and a different style as well rather than copying their predecessors.


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Post by Valkyrja Tue Jun 03, 2014 8:57 pm

@RealGunner wrote:This is the end of the golden generation. Last tournament for quite few of them. Personally, I don't think Spain will win anything till Euro20/WC22. The next generation is talented, but half the players of the current members of the team. Even at their peak I can't see any of them reaching the heights of Xavi, Iniesta, Villa and Pique. They will only dominate once they are well into their 20s and develop a great understanding with each other and a different style as well rather than copying their predecessors.




 hmm strange

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Post by RealGunner Tue Jun 03, 2014 9:02 pm

Say what you want about his club form, but he is a rock for Spain. Was easily one of the best defenders in WC10 and Euro12.

The upcoming CBs will have to do a lot to reach his level.
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Post by messixaviesta Tue Jun 03, 2014 9:18 pm

@RealGunner wrote:This is the end of the golden generation. Last tournament for quite few of them. Personally, I don't think Spain will win anything till Euro20/WC22. The next generation is talented, but half the players of the current members of the team. Even at their peak I can't see any of them reaching the heights of Xavi, Iniesta, Villa and Pique. They will only dominate once they are well into their 20s and develop a great understanding with each other and a different style as well rather than copying their predecessors.


A short post but nothing could have summed up the essence of it all better. This is without doubt the golden generation. Especially in midfield it was so extraordinary that many wonderful players didn't even get enough opportunity. It is the maestro Xavi's last tournament. I think he should openly announce international retirement. Even though it's unlikely I am not ruling out a Zidane 2006 like last hurrah from the maestro. Even the artist Iniesta may not be around till WC 2018. He has not had the same fitness levels that Xavi has had and it's hard to see him maintaining fitness and form at this level when he's 34 years old. All time top scorer Villa has already taken semi-retirement. We could go on about many others. As for whether Spain will win anything big after this generation I agree with you that in spite of the likes of Thiago and Isco that is unlikely. What this kind of success will do though is keep them in the mix in future. This generation has ensured that never again will Spain be considered an also ran or called an underachiever. It's a matter of psyche in sport. When one generation does something incredible it rubs off on the forthcoming ones even if they may never attain the same heights. To borrow an example from another game take Sri Lanka in cricket post 1996. In football the biggest example is the miracle of Berne. Not only did it make Germany a top football nation forever I would go so far as to say that it affected the psyche of the nation as a whole very positively and some of the achievements that they made in various fields were subconsciously inspired by this incredible triumph. Even Greece are qualifying so often for major tournaments and are fighting well to progress in the tournaments because Euro 2004 happened. Let me end by quoting my favourite footballer. To all those who said Spain's style is boring Iniesta simply replied everyone has a right to an opinion but this style changed Spain's history forever and that is enough for me.

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Post by messixaviesta Tue Jun 03, 2014 9:24 pm

@BarrileteCosmico wrote:Old and battered Spain are still easily a top 4 team... By the next WC or even the euros Xavi and xabi won't be starting any more simply due to age.

Yes probably. Only Argentina and Brazil I rate definitively better. We could argue about Italy, Germany and a few others but largely not very convincingly.


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Post by Valkyrja Tue Jun 03, 2014 9:51 pm

@RealGunner wrote:Say what you want about his club form, but he is a rock for Spain. Was easily one of the best defenders in WC10 and Euro12.

The upcoming CBs will have to do a lot to reach his level.


Ramos was their best defender in both Euros and WC. Pique was pathetic in WC 2010 final and pretty bad in Euro.
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Post by RealGunner Tue Jun 03, 2014 10:04 pm

@Valkyrja wrote:
@RealGunner wrote:Say what you want about his club form, but he is a rock for Spain. Was easily one of the best defenders in WC10 and Euro12.

The upcoming CBs will have to do a lot to reach his level.


Ramos was their best defender in both Euros and WC. Pique was pathetic in WC 2010 final and pretty bad in Euro.


Is that why he was voted in the team of the tournament?

I honestly don't remember him being either 'pathetic' nor 'pretty bad'. Maybe because I don't hate Barcelona or maybe I don't have a good memory. I would like a non-madrid fan to remind me if he really was 'pathetic' with substantial evidence in place of the argument. From what I remember, In WC10, he had few unfortunate accidents(injury wise) and gave away a penalty against Paraguay, however he was excellent in every knock-out match up to the final. For Euro12, I really have no idea how he was bad?
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Post by RealGunner Tue Jun 03, 2014 10:16 pm

@messixaviesta wrote:
@RealGunner wrote:This is the end of the golden generation. Last tournament for quite few of them. Personally, I don't think Spain will win anything till Euro20/WC22. The next generation is talented, but half the players of the current members of the team. Even at their peak I can't see any of them reaching the heights of Xavi, Iniesta, Villa and Pique. They will only dominate once they are well into their 20s and develop a great understanding with each other and a different style as well rather than copying their predecessors.


A short post but nothing could have summed up the essence of it all better. This is without doubt the golden generation. Especially in midfield it was so extraordinary that many wonderful players didn't even get enough opportunity. It is the maestro Xavi's last tournament. I think he should openly announce international retirement. Even though it's unlikely I am not ruling out a Zidane 2006 like last hurrah from the maestro. Even the artist Iniesta may not be around till WC 2018. He has not had the same fitness levels that Xavi has had and it's hard to see him maintaining fitness and form at this level when he's 34 years old. All time top scorer Villa has already taken semi-retirement. We could go on about many others. As for whether Spain will win anything big after this generation I agree with you that in spite of the likes of Thiago and Isco that is unlikely. What this kind of success will do though is keep them in the mix in future. This generation has ensured that never again will Spain be considered an also ran or called an underachiever. It's a matter of psyche in sport. When one generation does something incredible it rubs off on the forthcoming ones even if they may never attain the same heights. To borrow an example from another game take Sri Lanka in cricket post 1996. In football the biggest example is the miracle of Berne. Not only did it make Germany a top football nation forever I would go so far as to say that it affected the psyche of the nation as a whole very positively and some of the achievements that they made in various fields were subconsciously inspired by this incredible triumph. Even Greece are qualifying so often for major tournaments and are fighting well to progress in the tournaments because Euro 2004 happened. Let me end by quoting my favourite footballer. To all those who said Spain's style is boring Iniesta simply replied everyone has a right to an opinion but this style changed Spain's history forever and that is enough for me.


Yea completely agreed JD.

It's not to say that they definitely won't win either of WC18/Euro16. But I would be surprised if they do. The new generation always takes time to settle into the fold of international football.

Teams like Germany, Brazil and Italy will eventually figure out their shortcomings and fulfil their own potential. Specially Germany. They have incredible talent and it's a matter of time they get the formula right to win at least an Euro or a WC
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Post by messixaviesta Wed Jun 04, 2014 5:24 am

Thanks rg. I agree completely.


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Post by RealGunner Sat Jun 07, 2014 8:05 pm

There's a chance for Carvajal to be called up for La Roja by VdB, if Juanfran doesn't improve on his injury tonight vs El Salvador.
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Post by Arquitecto Fri Jun 13, 2014 11:43 pm

I wrote:Thank you, my friend.

Before I start, Vicente Del Bosque is my favourite manager in the world and whom I feel is the best in world football as never I would question the man himself and what made him the deity he is to us.

When it comes to my favourite managers, they will be on the platform of the most criticism from me considering how much time I invest in deducting their choices and decisions.

We have won it all as you know, yet post Euro 2012 (the tourney the sign of needed change) España have been on a subtle decline.

International teams have increasingly figured out how to thwart us through examples set by Prandelli, Sampioli, Igesund, Jorge Luis Pinto and club teams whom have formed an increasingly comprehensive plan to render our possession based system, less effective. Why and how?

The core team arguably after peaking in 2012, is not functioning the same way.

Whether Xavi or Pique or most of our cup winning veterans, they have lost either that desire present pre-2010 than had us win in South Africa or the incremental changes in their respective clubs (to which complimented each other rather than being a simple tactical variable) have not caused Del Bosque to evolve upon them, rather we are stagnant. Just like Barcelona post-Pep, gone is the pressing, the zonal movement off the ball, the intensity, the flair... the insito. Pre-Confed Cup was merely a sign yet our performances versus Italia and that horrorshow versus Brazil was not just due to the humidity and the insignificance of the Confederations Cup. Our cycle has reached past its stage as the players exerting their final embers in the tank will not be enough for the 2014 WC.

Del Bosque infuriates in the sense that he only scouts THREE clubs exclusively (well documented) which are Real Madrid, Barcelona and Atletico Madrid, with the exception of an occasional trip for Sevilla (given he lives right next to the city). Other players in different clubs are exclusively scouted by Grande (whom VDB has implicit trust in). Difference is, when it comes to their use he does not use them for their strengths, only relying on a football catalyst past its cycle and without a tactical variance. Implementation of Xabi again is welcome given how tactically important he is yet our midfield is frequently overrun and dominated on the counter considering the base football has been stripped down into the basics, without ANY changes if it does not work.

Vicente's lack of adaptation and faith in his old guard is costing us.

What do I mean by Lippilism? It is a term coined humorously by Mole meaning that Del Bosque will hold onto the guard whom won him everything even if it means they are not the players they were in their halcyon days.

Del Bosque like Lippi, staunchly believes in team dressing room spirit even at the cost of the implementation of a new breed. His premise is correct yet in my opinion there must be a balance struct and he has without a doubt succumbed to the politics which all his predecessors do in choosing a very concentrated contingent of players only from the 3 named clubs, despite individuals performing better in other ones.

How in the world has the arrogant Fernando Torres (who has been utter shit since Euro 2008) get ahead of a far more superior duo in Alvaro Negredo and Fernando Llorente? You may say chemistry yet each and every time both have shown they add a better and more effective dimension than Torres, Llorente especially given his complete skill-set and ambidexrity (something our line screams).

Yes, we do not play centre-forwards and Fabregas for all his consistent excellent for us is limiting us given that we now need to resort back to a reference point to which the players can centre around. Half the players lack a clear role, which is needed considering the timeworn play calling for dynamism and more versatility.

How is Pique continuing to start considering since 2010 he has been a shadow of himself club and country? Considering Íñigo has been better and shown what he can provide in his cap versus Ecuador.

Juanfran is a painfully average right-back whose been chosen over better performers in Iraola and Carvajal.

Alba whose been a pure liability, is exempt considering his excellent form in Barca's final third of the season.

Yet in the midfield Busquets is not performing his role whereas Xavi has been a shadow post-2012 and our front midfield seems to be picked by names than results. Names like David Silva, Mata and Koke who never have performed (bar infrequent exceptions by Silva) continue to be called up.

And then you have Diego Costa who ISN'T Spanish and directly contradicts Vicente's code of conduct (unlike the model professional Senna) by his vile thuggery and theatrics. Quite frankly, it may have been his first appearance but he was absolute dross versus Italia and clearly did not fit in considering he cannot handle such a system on the ball.

This does not reflect on how I view the players yet a bigger point.

Just like this country, España does not believe in merit yet delves purely into seniority, experience, and narrowing the factors down as much as possible as shortcuts, all the opposites of what us Basques believe. My problem with Del Bosque goes beyond my usual call for the new dominant breed of the country in Basques or individual players scouted for what they can add and their performances compared to their national counterparts. Yet merit is not something rewarded within course of Vincente's experimentation and that has been a constant since the world cup.

Exceptions apply such as Fabregas, Pedro, Villa, Ramos etc whom no matter what club form, they always turn it up for España.

Yet there is no way to break into this system outside if you show intangible traits to which no player has yet figured out and despite the results, the tactics are a serious ticking timb bomb to which will be exploited on the stage such as the world cup. In there you have a handful of names whom continue to make the squad despite not even fitting in within the system itself; political reasons must also be mentioned.

Yes like Italia, España turn it up during these stages yet we are resting on a cycle to which has not been invigorated as needed and it may just cost us in the future.

Where I stop is simply on the fact that it IS Vicente Del Bosque managing us, and hopefully he proves me wrong yet questions must be raised.

Also, an absolute honour that you continue to support España.

When you let the a curry simmer beyond its balance of incremental heat and produce; it makes for a overly potent imbue that spoils the dish.

When you stretch an elastic band beyond its measure of elasticity, it is rendered into a fruitless hoop of rubber.

When you stretch a footballing cycle beyond its shelf-life, it is simmered down into a grainy contour of its halcyon years.

Mole was not joking when he coined the super corny term in Lippilism, something both of us agree upon that Vicente del Bosque has slowly contracted and now is a third degree victim of its namesake.

As a manager, one will inevitably look back into the core nucleus of a team that brought the cup into his hands; choosing to replicate the carefully chosen ingredients that accrued the clinching of the ultimate goal.

4 years is the penultimate point of torsion one can twist within their core cycle as in 2014 we are looking at a squad in its final sinews, playing a system in its final embers fuelled by reserve batteries rather than reinvention and reinvigoration.

del Basque will not rest upon his achievements yet like Lippi in their parallel age they will so stubbornly refuse to believe in the modern pace of footballing cycles, choosing attributes in the form of personal trust and chemistry over merit and experimentation. The 4 year gap if not Post-2012 was the breeding ground of time produced to which ideas were supposed to be expanded upon with the Basque Revolution, integration of regional footballing philosophies, a transition of identity from the Spanish adapted Creole football into a hybrid of all the regional philosophies themselves and one that absolved all the politcal pretensions and succumbances to what made us serial chokers generationally. The conveyor belt of talent putting countries to shame being ignored for the previous platform, now rendered shaky from the weight of its obsoletism as bandages across the sore fissures and blind eyes to the glaring wounds was was fully ripped open by a ravenous Netherlands.

Yet it was mentioned, our problems stemmed right after the Euro 2012 in which our victories were eventually produce of a false perch to rest upon while the rest of the footballing world moved ahead in determined coalitions; adapting to the once prevalent fear when facing the system prized by Luis Aragones.

It will be ignored that Pique has been a lady of fortune post 2010 when General Puyol was too maimed to lead on his younger understudy, thus unearthing the flawed talent that is Gerard Pique who has been a mere silhouette of what he could have been, for 2 straight years now.

It will be ignored that Ramos will need a partner to compliment his character and construct; those multitude of attributes not enough to sustain a defense on the brink of annihilation since perusal of the defensive game is non-existent in our defensive semantic.

It will be ignored that Xavi no longer can sustain the grueling intensity of what Barca's golden cycle took out of his muscle and membrane; the artist now receiving a moments pause to reinvent and reinspire himself.

It will be ignored that Fernando Torres is a con-artist of the highest echelon, sleuthing his way consistently in the ranks based on flashbacks of when he was relevant.

It will be ignored that David Silva does not perform for us (ever), Iniesta is wasted in his outside-left role, using the Italian solution to deploy as many playmakers as possible will only hinder our play or all the kibbles and bits of decisions proven not to work.

It will be ignored that the Un-Spaniard Diego Costa will never perform for us as his floppery versus Italia (and now Netherlands) highlighting a crisis beyond just the need to adapt; but the fact that this unwelcome hooligan represents the skewed structure of how one benefits from our tumultuous federation.

It will be ignored that the best striker by a nautical mile for the red in the form of David Villa will remain 2nd-3rd choice for the fraudulent duo of Torres and Costa; despite performing for us each and every single time.

It will be ignored that we are deploying a promising ideas with a ceiling reached two years ago to which have been stagnant as a puddle; instead having a regression similar what was stripped down into its bare-naked value during Pep Guardiola's leave of Barcelona.


It will be ignored that Fernando Llorente or the Basque revolution as a whole combine the modern movement needed to support the excess of this cycle, to which the current Real-Barca split have overstayed their deserved ovation. Diversity was the mark of our last three trophies that was supposed to launch us into a new era of the flag; back to square one.

Congratulations to Netherlands. That night in Johannesburg must have been a world of pain post Iniesta-goal as frivolous as this match may be compared to such a stage, this humiliation served us correct if you look at España's attempt to balance on one marble foot post trophies; better to have our nauseating humiliation NOW than deep into the competition where del Bosque's quadruple chin will contradict or give away the grander assessments of our problems. It was beyond Iker Casillas resorting to his suicidal and erratic self of our failure to adapt to any tactical shift that van Gaal threw at us. Netherlands has actually given del Basque a script to work on to which will humble our arrogance and reignite the fire once catalyzed in the inception of our golden years. Australia will likely be a victim of them being out of their depth yet Chile (the team that opened us by the seams a year ago led by Mauricio Isla and Arturo Vidonkey), will present a predicament and more so a litmus test to how we can respond in a situation not yet faced since....ever.

This loss either results in the slow twist of the knife in a steady leeway of decline or actually resorting back to what he were supposed to build upon Post-2008/2010.

This loss is black and white.

This loss is quite possibly the best thing that has happened to us in years.
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Post by Valkyrja Fri Jun 13, 2014 11:48 pm

Casillas
Azpi Pique Ramos Alba
Javi Xabi
Pedro Cesc/Santi Iniesta
Villa

VDB should try something like this in the next match
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Post by Hapless_Hans Thu Jun 19, 2014 2:18 pm

Assuming that VdB steps down, as he should, have you guys any ideas, proposals, wishes, suspicions who might/should become the new national team coach?
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Post by boyzis Thu Jun 19, 2014 2:21 pm

If I was spain I would have chosen van gaal.

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Post by Winter is Coming Thu Jun 19, 2014 2:31 pm

I don't see him getting sacked tbh. It could happen, but I kind of doubt it. There isn't really anyone I can think of perhaps Roberto Martinez, Rafa, Emery, Valverde could all be candidates and good replacements, as many would trust the youth, but it depends if their willing too as they are quite young still. I personally wouldn't mind any of them except Rafa and I'd lean towards Valverde.
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Post by Hapless_Hans Thu Jun 19, 2014 2:48 pm

well of course they shouldn't 'sack' him, but at the same time it is absolutely impossible that he continues, no?
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Post by rwo power Thu Jun 19, 2014 2:49 pm

Loddar is still looking for something to coach...
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Post by Hapless_Hans Thu Jun 19, 2014 2:57 pm

Loddar would do an amazing job, I'm sure of that, also I don't think he had a Spanish girlfriend yet hmm
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Post by Arquitecto Thu Jun 19, 2014 7:19 pm

I wrote:I wrote:
Thank you, my friend.

Before I start, Vicente Del Bosque is my favourite manager in the world and whom I feel is the best in world football as never I would question the man himself and what made him the deity he is to us.

When it comes to my favourite managers, they will be on the platform of the most criticism from me considering how much time I invest in deducting their choices and decisions.

We have won it all as you know, yet post Euro 2012 (the tourney the sign of needed change) España have been on a subtle decline.

International teams have increasingly figured out how to thwart us through examples set by Prandelli, Sampioli, Igesund, Jorge Luis Pinto and club teams whom have formed an increasingly comprehensive plan to render our possession based system, less effective. Why and how?

The core team arguably after peaking in 2012, is not functioning the same way.

Whether Xavi or Pique or most of our cup winning veterans, they have lost either that desire present pre-2010 than had us win in South Africa or the incremental changes in their respective clubs (to which complimented each other rather than being a simple tactical variable) have not caused Del Bosque to evolve upon them, rather we are stagnant. Just like Barcelona post-Pep, gone is the pressing, the zonal movement off the ball, the intensity, the flair... the insito. Pre-Confed Cup was merely a sign yet our performances versus Italia and that horrorshow versus Brazil was not just due to the humidity and the insignificance of the Confederations Cup. Our cycle has reached past its stage as the players exerting their final embers in the tank will not be enough for the 2014 WC.

Del Bosque infuriates in the sense that he only scouts THREE clubs exclusively (well documented) which are Real Madrid, Barcelona and Atletico Madrid, with the exception of an occasional trip for Sevilla (given he lives right next to the city). Other players in different clubs are exclusively scouted by Grande (whom VDB has implicit trust in). Difference is, when it comes to their use he does not use them for their strengths, only relying on a football catalyst past its cycle and without a tactical variance. Implementation of Xabi again is welcome given how tactically important he is yet our midfield is frequently overrun and dominated on the counter considering the base football has been stripped down into the basics, without ANY changes if it does not work.

Vicente's lack of adaptation and faith in his old guard is costing us.

What do I mean by Lippilism? It is a term coined humorously by Mole meaning that Del Bosque will hold onto the guard whom won him everything even if it means they are not the players they were in their halcyon days.

Del Bosque like Lippi, staunchly believes in team dressing room spirit even at the cost of the implementation of a new breed. His premise is correct yet in my opinion there must be a balance struct and he has without a doubt succumbed to the politics which all his predecessors do in choosing a very concentrated contingent of players only from the 3 named clubs, despite individuals performing better in other ones.

How in the world has the arrogant Fernando Torres (who has been utter shit since Euro 2008) get ahead of a far more superior duo in Alvaro Negredo and Fernando Llorente? You may say chemistry yet each and every time both have shown they add a better and more effective dimension than Torres, Llorente especially given his complete skill-set and ambidexrity (something our line screams).

Yes, we do not play centre-forwards and Fabregas for all his consistent excellent for us is limiting us given that we now need to resort back to a reference point to which the players can centre around. Half the players lack a clear role, which is needed considering the timeworn play calling for dynamism and more versatility.

How is Pique continuing to start considering since 2010 he has been a shadow of himself club and country? Considering Íñigo has been better and shown what he can provide in his cap versus Ecuador.

Juanfran is a painfully average right-back whose been chosen over better performers in Iraola and Carvajal.

Alba whose been a pure liability, is exempt considering his excellent form in Barca's final third of the season.

Yet in the midfield Busquets is not performing his role whereas Xavi has been a shadow post-2012 and our front midfield seems to be picked by names than results. Names like David Silva, Mata and Koke who never have performed (bar infrequent exceptions by Silva) continue to be called up.

And then you have Diego Costa who ISN'T Spanish and directly contradicts Vicente's code of conduct (unlike the model professional Senna) by his vile thuggery and theatrics. Quite frankly, it may have been his first appearance but he was absolute dross versus Italia and clearly did not fit in considering he cannot handle such a system on the ball.

This does not reflect on how I view the players yet a bigger point.

Just like this country, España does not believe in merit yet delves purely into seniority, experience, and narrowing the factors down as much as possible as shortcuts, all the opposites of what us Basques believe. My problem with Del Bosque goes beyond my usual call for the new dominant breed of the country in Basques or individual players scouted for what they can add and their performances compared to their national counterparts. Yet merit is not something rewarded within course of Vincente's experimentation and that has been a constant since the world cup.

Exceptions apply such as Fabregas, Pedro, Villa, Ramos etc whom no matter what club form, they always turn it up for España.

Yet there is no way to break into this system outside if you show intangible traits to which no player has yet figured out and despite the results, the tactics are a serious ticking timb bomb to which will be exploited on the stage such as the world cup. In there you have a handful of names whom continue to make the squad despite not even fitting in within the system itself; political reasons must also be mentioned.

Yes like Italia, España turn it up during these stages yet we are resting on a cycle to which has not been invigorated as needed and it may just cost us in the future.

Where I stop is simply on the fact that it IS Vicente Del Bosque managing us, and hopefully he proves me wrong yet questions must be raised.

Also, an absolute honour that you continue to support España.

When you let the a curry simmer beyond its balance of incremental heat and produce; it makes for a overly potent imbue that spoils the dish.

When you stretch an elastic band beyond its measure of elasticity, it is rendered into a fruitless hoop of rubber.

When you stretch a footballing cycle beyond its shelf-life, it is simmered down into a grainy contour of its halcyon years.

Mole was not joking when he coined the super corny term in Lippilism, something both of us agree upon that Vicente del Bosque has slowly contracted and now is a third degree victim of its namesake.

As a manager, one will inevitably look back into the core nucleus of a team that brought the cup into his hands; choosing to replicate the carefully chosen ingredients that accrued the clinching of the ultimate goal.

4 years is the penultimate point of torsion one can twist within their core cycle as in 2014 we are looking at a squad in its final sinews, playing a system in its final embers fuelled by reserve batteries rather than reinvention and reinvigoration.

del Basque will not rest upon his achievements yet like Lippi in their parallel age they will so stubbornly refuse to believe in the modern pace of footballing cycles, choosing attributes in the form of personal trust and chemistry over merit and experimentation. The 4 year gap if not Post-2012 was the breeding ground of time produced to which ideas were supposed to be expanded upon with the Basque Revolution, integration of regional footballing philosophies, a transition of identity from the Spanish adapted Creole football into a hybrid of all the regional philosophies themselves and one that absolved all the politcal pretensions and succumbances to what made us serial chokers generationally. The conveyor belt of talent putting countries to shame being ignored for the previous platform, now rendered shaky from the weight of its obsoletism as bandages across the sore fissures and blind eyes to the glaring wounds was was fully ripped open by a ravenous Netherlands.

Yet it was mentioned, our problems stemmed right after the Euro 2012 in which our victories were eventually produce of a false perch to rest upon while the rest of the footballing world moved ahead in determined coalitions; adapting to the once prevalent fear when facing the system prized by Luis Aragones.

It will be ignored that Pique has been a lady of fortune post 2010 when General Puyol was too maimed to lead on his younger understudy, thus unearthing the flawed talent that is Gerard Pique who has been a mere silhouette of what he could have been, for 2 straight years now.

It will be ignored that Ramos will need a partner to compliment his character and construct; those multitude of attributes not enough to sustain a defense on the brink of annihilation since perusal of the defensive game is non-existent in our defensive semantic.

It will be ignored that Xavi no longer can sustain the grueling intensity of what Barca's golden cycle took out of his muscle and membrane; the artist now receiving a moments pause to reinvent and reinspire himself.

It will be ignored that Fernando Torres is a con-artist of the highest echelon, sleuthing his way consistently in the ranks based on flashbacks of when he was relevant.

It will be ignored that David Silva does not perform for us (ever), Iniesta is wasted in his outside-left role, using the Italian solution to deploy as many playmakers as possible will only hinder our play or all the kibbles and bits of decisions proven not to work.

It will be ignored that the Un-Spaniard Diego Costa will never perform for us as his floppery versus Italia (and now Netherlands) highlighting a crisis beyond just the need to adapt; but the fact that this unwelcome hooligan represents the skewed structure of how one benefits from our tumultuous federation.

It will be ignored that the best striker by a nautical mile for the red in the form of David Villa will remain 2nd-3rd choice for the fraudulent duo of Torres and Costa; despite performing for us each and every single time.

It will be ignored that we are deploying a promising ideas with a ceiling reached two years ago to which have been stagnant as a puddle; instead having a regression similar what was stripped down into its bare-naked value during Pep Guardiola's leave of Barcelona.


It will be ignored that Fernando Llorente or the Basque revolution as a whole combine the modern movement needed to support the excess of this cycle, to which the current Real-Barca split have overstayed their deserved ovation. Diversity was the mark of our last three trophies that was supposed to launch us into a new era of the flag; back to square one.

Congratulations to Netherlands. That night in Johannesburg must have been a world of pain post Iniesta-goal as frivolous as this match may be compared to such a stage, this humiliation served us correct if you look at España's attempt to balance on one marble foot post trophies; better to have our nauseating humiliation NOW than deep into the competition where del Bosque's quadruple chin will contradict or give away the grander assessments of our problems. It was beyond Iker Casillas resorting to his suicidal and erratic self of our failure to adapt to any tactical shift that van Gaal threw at us. Netherlands has actually given del Basque a script to work on to which will humble our arrogance and reignite the fire once catalyzed in the inception of our golden years. Australia will likely be a victim of them being out of their depth yet Chile (the team that opened us by the seams a year ago led by Mauricio Isla and Arturo Vidonkey), will present a predicament and more so a litmus test to how we can respond in a situation not yet faced since....ever.

This loss either results in the slow twist of the knife in a steady leeway of decline or actually resorting back to what he were supposed to build upon Post-2008/2010.

This loss is black and white.

This loss is quite possibly the best thing that has happened to us in years.


Excuse me for using old quotes as a reference point as I want to build upon what I have said for TWO straight years (four counting pointing out the obvious red flags post-2010) as I want this as a memoir of how the less blinded Spaniards felt. This is nothing compared to the Bresciani ridiculing my father and I for España's perennial choking habits and mentality to which built a thick skin versus dramatic losses such as these.

For the more perceptive Spaniards who were awash in intoxication of our three straight international tourney wins, this was JUST AS hard a blow in the solar plexus as the ones expecting another incremental win. España is like that, a rhapsody pour orchestre mosaic of variable emotions, opinions and convictions. The country split into debate regionally based on an assortment of factors whether objective or to rebel against the norm. Our triple win (counting the points of previous) eventually was laid as a layer of ice upon a recently frozen lake, one that has to be manoeuvred with the same down force required from the edge of the ice to the treacherous middle. Unfortunately, España carrying the burden of our cycle faced increasing weight split onto all ends that could not cope with the sheer momentum of what we surmounted, choosing to be arrogant, plump from our trophies, and FAILING to ADAPT, EVOLVE and PROGRESS. A conundrum (was it really?) was presented to us as either we advance or die.

Where does that leave us? Back to square one in a España in divide to which this colossal failure will be the catalyst of? This loss represented the typical mentality on all corners of the peninsula, if it ain't broke don't fix it and choose to forgo your own stubborn convictions to breed and breath new life into our axioms.

Example: del Bosque playing Costa for the third straight time (third straight failure) and using FERNANDO *bleep* TORRES instead of David Villa, let alone not letting our best striker of all time start; as if not calling up Fernando Llorente was not enough (Españole media not even in hindsight ridiculing this move) yet then we sought comfort in the substitution of Koke (LOL) to replace Spanish NT flop Silva while Javi relegated to a CB position he has not succeeded in since Bielsa.

I've stated all those menial problems in my previous quoted posts. Yet the bigger picture is that in spite of this loss even worse than Italia 2010 (which was BAD), this WILL represent a metamorphosis to abandon all that arrogance, false entitlement and refusal to excogiate from bygone sagas.

We thought we could master football, we thought we perfected football, we thought we had it all. Yet, we forgot that football ALWAYS ALWAYS moves on, representing outer space in its refusal to remain static and kindred. And for THAT, we deserve that brace by Robin van Persie, Arjen Robben, Stefan de Vrij, along with Edu Vargas and Aranguiz putting the nail in our coffin to our false air of entitlement.

Vicente del Bosque remains the finest manager in the world for me yet like old managers in the form of Capello, Lippi, Clemente, Ancelotti etc he is ancient with those typical Mediterranean stubborn values that are the bane of the peninsulas. I support him on till Euro 2012 (provide he changes) as such is the need for him to carry our transition yet that must be his final tournament, like Italia; you do not carry such cycles with one manager for a second World Cup let alone Italia. We still have the best talent in the world and ALL the resources of our now emerging regional philosophies at our feet, no need to panic. Yet, Football in its century+ of evolution has its own intangible forces and dynamics that one party can never hone.

We are humbled and its hurts like a never-ending headache. But t had to happen sooner or later, regardless of all the fingers pointed aat whom at whatnot.


Y Viva España, Vamos.
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Spain NT discussion - Page 17 Empty Re: Spain NT discussion

Post by The Franchise Fri Jun 20, 2014 1:50 am

Once the WC is over with, the first meaningful game Spain play how radical should their changes be?

Obviously alot depends on coach and who retires and such and such, but if its up to you, what 11 starts the next relevant Spain match post WC?

Ignore the possibility of bad form and injuries. Chose an 11.

I think for me


------------------------De Gea------------------------

Azpli---------Martinez---------Ramos----------Alba

------------------------Busquets----------------------

Isco----------Thiago----------Iniesta-----------Koke

----------- ---------Costa (by default)---------------







3 of the same back 4 would terrify me if I gave a crap about Spain, but im sorry, as average as Azpli is with the ball, Carvajal isnt the answer. He is just a regular rightback, doesnt make any difference whatsoever. You know I dislike Alba, but Monreal is even worse. Maybe Moreno can pull up some trees early and win that place.

Either way, with Koke in front of him you would imagine the leftback would get protected more.

Got to fill the bench with youngsters, the likes of Jese if he returns from injury well, Deulofeu if he gets chances and plays how im sure he will at Barca, the remainder of the old guard such as Cesc, Silva, Pique, Martinez and I guess Costa if he isnt starting.

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Post by futbol Fri Jun 20, 2014 2:29 am

I like that formation a lot. I would still replace Azpi with Carvajal. Azpi was worse with ball at feet than I anticipated he would be in a possession team that is on the frontfoot 70 % of the game. ACRES of space and he just doesn't have a clue what to do. Did he have 1 meaningful offensive play? Even defensively Blind played some nice balls through his side including the cross for the equalizer. Jill and Arqy praising Chelsea / Basque scrubs and I'm falling for it. Spain NT discussion - Page 17 Image

Instead of Isco I'd play one of Jese or Deulofeu (depending who will develop better until the Euros). Otherwise there will be a serious lack of pace and off the ball movement again with Busquets, Thiago, Koke, Iniesta already in there.

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Post by BarrileteCosmico Fri Jun 20, 2014 2:37 am

More worrying to me is the quality of Spanish coaches. There is VDB, Pep and... Pepe Mel?
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