Re: What you guys think of this new Cesc rumour?

by Iceman Mon Aug 01, 2011 4:57 pm

The Franchise wrote:You just said a load of stuff, that isnt really important in terms of his price. Then said, he is easily worth 40-50. You didnt justify it at all. You just said he is a very good player and Arsenal dont have to sell, which everyone already knows, then said he is worth 40-50m.

You say, either pay up or shut up. I dont get why.

We are offering amounts, you dont think its the right value. Good, fair enough. But how is it inuslting to you? How is it such a terrible mistreatment? No, it isnt. If it was, you would go back to, not listening to offers, your wasting our time.

I love how your talking about inflation, like its some inevitable factor we all just have accept.

No, it isnt.

Your opinion is 40m isnt overpaying. Mine is, it is overpaying, slightly, but still overpaying. I dont justify that.

Kaka was overpayed and I see Cesc for 40m as almost as overpaid. Thats not looking back on Kaka and seeing how he is injury prone, thats at the time.

You keep talking about how Arsenal dont need your money, like your in a positon of strength. Well, your not.

You have a player on your hands who wants to go, thats why you havent closed your doors, thats why you are listening to offers at all.

As I said, I dont justify overpaying when we need players. I was just about happy with Villa despite him being the only way I wanted to sign, that was because we needed a starting forward. I dont justify overpaying for Cesc, because we dont need him.

I think I am allowed an opinion, that is, Cesc isnt worth 40m to me. Dispute it if you like, but I doubt you will convince me otherwise and saying "we should overpay" is just laughable.

We should overpay, or we are insulting and being disrespectful?

Riiight.

Firstly, I personally never complained about anything. I never labelled it as an insult, nor did I say its a terrible mistreatment so putting words in my mouth seems pretty silly, no? Please pay attention to what I say. I don't mind you offering so little, because it just means that Cesc is staying.

Now, all of what I said is relevant to his price, you just fail to see it for some reason. Fabregas being a great player is relevant. The fact that he has statistically outdone Xavi for 5 years straight is relevant. The fact that he's one of the best out there is relevant. The fact that he is still young is relevant. The fact that we don't need the money, and that we don't need to sell is relevant. The fact that he isn't unhappy at Arsenal is relevant. This is all relevant to how much you are going to pay.

Inflation IS something you have to accept. If you don't believe so, then fine but as you can see...you're almost on your own in that respect. As I said, it is irrelevant to use whether you need him or not. All we care about is the amount you pay. You have overpaid consistently throughout the past few years, ranging from an outrageous 25 million for someone like Chygrinski (SP) to the infamous Ibra purchase. We see you spending all that money on players you eventually sell for much less just one year later, and you expect us to sit back and accept 30 million? Doesn't make sense to me.

For example, if City approached us, then we'd automatically ask for 70 million or something along those lines. Why? Because they have spent outrageous sums of money as well.

I don't get why its so hard for you to grasp the idea of inflation though..

by kiranr Mon Aug 01, 2011 5:00 pm

Iceman wrote:I'm getting worked up because it seems that the only way to get my point across fully is if I sorta shove it in lol. I keep on reading the same comments, and some of them seem very ignorant and that usually ticks me off lol.

I agree that Fabregas probably wants to move to Barcelona. My point was that he isn't unhappy at Arsenal. For example, right now Tevez is unhappy at City and so that lowers his price a bit. Cesc, on the other hand, is fine with staying at Arsenal. He even previously stated that he doesn't want to leave until he wins a trophy with us. That doesn't sound like a man who hates the city and the club, and all of his actions on the pitch don't harm my case at all.

I can take the Xavi talk, because it doesn't affect me. I just hate it when someone tries to defend his position, or attempts to convince me of something that isn't true, like Fabregas' value being 30 million.
I'd rather he stays here of course, but whatever it is that he wants to do, he better do it fast so we can have time to adjust the squad adequately.

I mean, really Kiranr...have you seen me say anything against Barcelona at all lately? I'm not a hater or anything lol

Valuations are subjective Fady. When Barcelona says Fabregas' worth is 30 million, it means that is what they are willing to pay. Arsenal want 40 million because that is how much they value Fabregas. Both are not wrong. If they can't agree on a price, the negotiations will end, simple.

If Barcelona is valuing Cesc at 30 million, they will try to defend their position because that is how negotiations happen. No point getting worked up over it. You name is ICEMAN after all!

by Iceman Mon Aug 01, 2011 5:01 pm

The Franchise wrote:

I guess you didnt read over the thread? All this has been covered.

And this post does nothing to add to the topic as well....so?

by Great Leader Sprucenuce Mon Aug 01, 2011 5:02 pm

Iceman wrote:Also, its noteworthy to observe Barca's financial dealings. How much did they pay for Ibra? How much did they pay for Villa, who was playing for a Valencia side that needed the money? How much have they paid for Sanchez, who was just bought last week?

You then expect us to watch you pay all of these huge amounts, but still settle for the measly 27 million that you offered because you "Don't want to overpay". We aren't push overs, and 27 million gets you nowhere. Neither does 30 million for that matter.

Villa was'nt overpaying he was considered the best striker in the world at the time by the majority of people he cost less than Carroll lol.

But anyway Villa and Ibra was under a different organisation under a different president.

It's different now under Rosell he is a lot more money savvy and negotiates the deals down to what he considers a reasonable price.

As for Sanchez he cost 27 million( Alot less than the 50 million Pozzo thought he was worth no?) the variables have not been paid and its quite possible they will never be paid.

And it's alot more likely he would be in the first 11 than Cesc would be, you might not care about squad status or negiotating a lower fee that Barca consider reasonable to them.

But's thats the exact reason Barca are trying to negotiate a lower fee because he would not be a starter( iam pretty sure Barca would pay it if Thiago was'nt there and Xavi was retiring.)

And yes right now you might be able to with stand offer's of less than 40 million this season but as the year's go past and the close Fabregas gets to the end of his contract the harder it will be for Arsenal to resist a low ball offer.

by Iceman Mon Aug 01, 2011 5:03 pm

The Franchise wrote:

How about Modric and Chelsea, the offer situation is pretty similar. Both clubs offered less then the selling club want.

Why is it Barca are somehow acting so horribly in offering so much less then Cesc' Arsenal value? Why are we singled out for such apparent bad ethics?

This cry, taunt, whine...where is it?

Cesc friends saying they want him at the club? So what?

Whilshire, stranger to Mata says his playing style will fit in at Arsenal. Thats okay though?

Wilshere says Mata's style would fit in perfectly at Arsenal. Xavi says Arsenal are holding Fabregas hostage.

If you can't see the difference, then I can't say anything that will make you see it.

by Iceman Mon Aug 01, 2011 5:10 pm

Immaculate_Mole wrote:
Iceman wrote:Also, its noteworthy to observe Barca's financial dealings. How much did they pay for Ibra? How much did they pay for Villa, who was playing for a Valencia side that needed the money? How much have they paid for Sanchez, who was just bought last week?

You then expect us to watch you pay all of these huge amounts, but still settle for the measly 27 million that you offered because you "Don't want to overpay". We aren't push overs, and 27 million gets you nowhere. Neither does 30 million for that matter.

Villa was'nt overpaying he was considered the best striker in the world at the time by the majority of people he cost less than Carroll lol.

But anyway Villa and Ibra was under a different organisation under a different president.

It's different now under Rosell he is a lot more money savvy and negotiates the deals down to what he considers a reasonable price.

As for Sanchez he cost 27 million( Alot less than the 50 million Pozzo thought he was worth no?) the variables have not been paid and its quite possible they will never be paid.

And it's alot more likely he would be in the first 11 than Cesc would be, you might not care about squad status or negiotating a lower fee that Barca consider reasonable to them.

But's thats the exact reason Barca are trying to negotiate a lower fee because he would not be a starter( iam pretty sure Barca would pay it if Thiago was'nt there and Xavi was retiring.)

And yes right now you might be able to with stand offer's of less than 40 million this season but as the year's go past and the close Fabregas gets to the end of his contract the harder it will be for Arsenal to resist a low ball offer.

Cesc has 3-4 years left on his contract IIRC. In 2 years time, Wilshere and Ramsey will be there for us and his squad status here won't be as strong which means that we'll probably accept a low-ball offer by then (If Barca don't pay up by that time, of course).

Now, I understand that it matters to Barcelona but it really doesn't matter to us, which is why I believe that the club will hold firm in the valuation and not budge at all. All I know is that he is a World Class player, playing for one of the top teams in Europe and is still young. 40 million is more than reasonable Mole, I'm sure you'd agree.

by Great Leader Sprucenuce Mon Aug 01, 2011 5:13 pm

Iceman wrote:
Immaculate_Mole wrote:
Iceman wrote:Also, its noteworthy to observe Barca's financial dealings. How much did they pay for Ibra? How much did they pay for Villa, who was playing for a Valencia side that needed the money? How much have they paid for Sanchez, who was just bought last week?

You then expect us to watch you pay all of these huge amounts, but still settle for the measly 27 million that you offered because you "Don't want to overpay". We aren't push overs, and 27 million gets you nowhere. Neither does 30 million for that matter.

Villa was'nt overpaying he was considered the best striker in the world at the time by the majority of people he cost less than Carroll lol.

But anyway Villa and Ibra was under a different organisation under a different president.

It's different now under Rosell he is a lot more money savvy and negotiates the deals down to what he considers a reasonable price.

As for Sanchez he cost 27 million( Alot less than the 50 million Pozzo thought he was worth no?) the variables have not been paid and its quite possible they will never be paid.

And it's alot more likely he would be in the first 11 than Cesc would be, you might not care about squad status or negiotating a lower fee that Barca consider reasonable to them.

But's thats the exact reason Barca are trying to negotiate a lower fee because he would not be a starter( iam pretty sure Barca would pay it if Thiago was'nt there and Xavi was retiring.)

And yes right now you might be able to with stand offer's of less than 40 million this season but as the year's go past and the close Fabregas gets to the end of his contract the harder it will be for Arsenal to resist a low ball offer.

Cesc has 3-4 years left on his contract IIRC. In 2 years time, Wilshere and Ramsey will be there for us and his squad status here won't be as strong which means that we'll probably accept a low-ball offer by then (If Barca don't pay up by that time, of course).

Now, I understand that it matters to Barcelona but it really doesn't matter to us, which is why I believe that the club will hold firm in the valuation and not budge at all. All I know is that he is a World Class player, playing for one of the top teams in Europe and is still young. 40 million is more than reasonable Mole, I'm sure you'd agree.

I do agree it is reasonable on face value, i personally would'nt pay it because i have faith in Thiago( but for this reason i would'nt even be chasing Fabregas)

But as Barca are i would say its definitely reasonable fee for the best midfielder in the EPL imo.

by The Franchise Mon Aug 01, 2011 5:14 pm

Iceman wrote:
The Franchise wrote:

I guess you didnt read over the thread? All this has been covered.

And this post does nothing to add to the topic as well....so?

Well, your not reading what I am writing and then asking questions that have already been asked and then answered. The post helps you see that...I hope.

by The Franchise Mon Aug 01, 2011 5:14 pm

Iceman wrote:
The Franchise wrote:

How about Modric and Chelsea, the offer situation is pretty similar. Both clubs offered less then the selling club want.

Why is it Barca are somehow acting so horribly in offering so much less then Cesc' Arsenal value? Why are we singled out for such apparent bad ethics?

This cry, taunt, whine...where is it?

Cesc friends saying they want him at the club? So what?

Whilshire, stranger to Mata says his playing style will fit in at Arsenal. Thats okay though?

Wilshere says Mata's style would fit in perfectly at Arsenal. Xavi says Arsenal are holding Fabregas hostage.

If you can't see the difference, then I can't say anything that will make you see it.

Oh yeah, Arsenal fans were never moaning untill he said that lol

And can you find me the quote and link in which Xavi says that btw?

by The Franchise Mon Aug 01, 2011 5:15 pm

Iceman wrote:
The Franchise wrote:You just said a load of stuff, that isnt really important in terms of his price. Then said, he is easily worth 40-50. You didnt justify it at all. You just said he is a very good player and Arsenal dont have to sell, which everyone already knows, then said he is worth 40-50m.

You say, either pay up or shut up. I dont get why.

We are offering amounts, you dont think its the right value. Good, fair enough. But how is it inuslting to you? How is it such a terrible mistreatment? No, it isnt. If it was, you would go back to, not listening to offers, your wasting our time.

I love how your talking about inflation, like its some inevitable factor we all just have accept.

No, it isnt.

Your opinion is 40m isnt overpaying. Mine is, it is overpaying, slightly, but still overpaying. I dont justify that.

Kaka was overpayed and I see Cesc for 40m as almost as overpaid. Thats not looking back on Kaka and seeing how he is injury prone, thats at the time.

You keep talking about how Arsenal dont need your money, like your in a positon of strength. Well, your not.

You have a player on your hands who wants to go, thats why you havent closed your doors, thats why you are listening to offers at all.

As I said, I dont justify overpaying when we need players. I was just about happy with Villa despite him being the only way I wanted to sign, that was because we needed a starting forward. I dont justify overpaying for Cesc, because we dont need him.

I think I am allowed an opinion, that is, Cesc isnt worth 40m to me. Dispute it if you like, but I doubt you will convince me otherwise and saying "we should overpay" is just laughable.

We should overpay, or we are insulting and being disrespectful?

Riiight.

Firstly, I personally never complained about anything. I never labelled it as an insult, nor did I say its a terrible mistreatment so putting words in my mouth seems pretty silly, no? Please pay attention to what I say. I don't mind you offering so little, because it just means that Cesc is staying.

Now, all of what I said is relevant to his price, you just fail to see it for some reason. Fabregas being a great player is relevant. The fact that he has statistically outdone Xavi for 5 years straight is relevant. The fact that he's one of the best out there is relevant. The fact that he is still young is relevant. The fact that we don't need the money, and that we don't need to sell is relevant. The fact that he isn't unhappy at Arsenal is relevant. This is all relevant to how much you are going to pay.

Inflation IS something you have to accept. If you don't believe so, then fine but as you can see...you're almost on your own in that respect. As I said, it is irrelevant to use whether you need him or not. All we care about is the amount you pay. You have overpaid consistently throughout the past few years, ranging from an outrageous 25 million for someone like Chygrinski (SP) to the infamous Ibra purchase. We see you spending all that money on players you eventually sell for much less just one year later, and you expect us to sit back and accept 30 million? Doesn't make sense to me.

For example, if City approached us, then we'd automatically ask for 70 million or something along those lines. Why? Because they have spent outrageous sums of money as well.

I don't get why its so hard for you to grasp the idea of inflation though..

Oh come on, you have never said Barcelona are acting badely in this whole saga financially and low-balling?

I think you have.

All this stuff you say is relevant, its not relevant in terms of justifying how he costs more then 40m. You have failed to do so. All you have done is say he is a great player. Maybe in your mind, he is worth more then 40m, in my he is not worth more then 35m.

You keep mentioning different transfers, like Villa and Ibra, and now Chgy...like its the same situation...you know it is, why waste my time saying them when you know this?

Who said I cant grasp the idea of inflation by the way?

Because I dont agree with your Arsenal drummed up version of what Cesc should cost?

by juberish Mon Aug 01, 2011 5:15 pm

Come on Barca, cough up the 40mil already and get this over with.. they want to tap up our players and then bullshite over their transfer fee too? If Andy Carroll is worth 35mil, then Cesc is worth 60.. 40 is a steal

by BeautifulGame Mon Aug 01, 2011 5:16 pm

Iceman wrote:
Wilshere says Mata's style would fit in perfectly at Arsenal. Xavi says Arsenal are holding Fabregas hostage.

If you can't see the difference, then I can't say anything that will make you see it.

Honest question.Didnt wenger say talking publicly about players being contracted to other clubs is disrespecting the club and blast Mancini.Doesnt this mean Wilshere is being disrespectful towards Valencia talking about Mata openly?

by Guest Mon Aug 01, 2011 5:16 pm

I actually blame this more on Cesc. He needs to manage things better here. But he's being wimpy about it. He could easily go to both sides and tell them to shut up to the media... if that doesn't work, he could even send this message in the media. Instead, he's just sitting on the sidelines and letting the drama unfold.

To me, that means he wants out of Arsenal and in on Barca badly. Arsenal know this, which is why he's been distanced from the squad.

All it is now is some very nasty negotiating. Frankly, Santos is doing the same thing with Neymar... except that Madrid refuses to respond at all.

by Iceman Mon Aug 01, 2011 5:28 pm

The Franchise wrote:
Oh come on, you have never said Barcelona are acting badely in this whole saga financially and low-balling?

I think you have.

All this stuff you say is relevant, its not relevant in terms of justifying how he costs more then 40m. You have failed to do so. All you have done is say he is a great player. Maybe in your mind, he is worth more then 40m, in my he is not worth more then 35m.

You keep mentioning different transfers, like Villa and Ibra, and now Chgy...like its the same situation...you know it is, why waste my time saying them when you know this?

Who said I cant grasp the idea of inflation by the way?

Because I dont agree with your Arsenal drummed up version of what Cesc should cost?

You said that inflation is not something we have to accept, while it is. If you don't think so, then you don't grasp the concept of inflation.

All I see is Barca paying huge sums of money for players, and then selling them back the following year for much less. Then you come here to buy Cesc, but you say that you "Don't want to overpay". Does not make sense to me. Its like going to buy a Lamborghini and then saying you should buy cheaper Candy to save up some money because you don't like to overspend.

You have failed to show me how he's worth 35 million, so its even steven on that front.
I once said Barca acted badly in the old forums, because you had, but I never said "its an insult" and certainly never on this forum. I never said that Barcelona acted badly on this forum, and to assume so is your fault not mine.

by juberish Mon Aug 01, 2011 5:33 pm

If you want a top player, you overpay. If you're not overpaying, then the player must be a gamble, mediocre, unknown.. or something. But a top WC players who can you can 100% guarantee can jump into your team from day one and start... then yes, you overpay. Barca needs to stop dragging this out, pay up or shut up. Retards want charity.

by Iceman Mon Aug 01, 2011 5:35 pm

The Franchise wrote:

Oh yeah, Arsenal fans were never moaning untill he said that lol

And can you find me the quote and link in which Xavi says that btw?

You mean the Quote which Wenger commented on and Xavi later apologized for? I'm pretty sure you can get that on your own...Xavi freakin apologized.

by hrealmadrid Mon Aug 01, 2011 5:35 pm

Iceman wrote:
The Franchise wrote:

How about Modric and Chelsea, the offer situation is pretty similar. Both clubs offered less then the selling club want.

Modric is nowhere near Fabregas' skill level, does not have the same experience, and the transfer saga has not being going on for three + years.

Why is it Barca are somehow acting so horribly in offering so much less then Cesc' Arsenal value? Why are we singled out for such apparent bad ethics?

This cry, taunt, whine...where is it?

"I spoke with Cesc in Ibiza and he told me that he was suffering because he wants to come here,'' Xavi was quoted as saying on Barcelona's website on Wednesday. "It's what he wants most and he's done all he can to come, he wants Arsenal to let him leave.''

Alves engineered his own Sevilla exit and claims Fabregas should do the same.

"I forced my exit from Sevilla; I saw the train passing by and I wanted to be in business class," he said.

"We want him to come and he would like for everything to be resolved so he can sign for Barcelona, but it is a problem between Barcelona and Arsenal," Xavi is quoted as saying by Marca.com.

"I see Fabregas in a worried state and with uncertainty. He is going through a bad patch. It seems as if Arsenal have given him permission to leave, but we don't know if it will happen."

"I have a weakness for him. I view him as a friend and hopefully he will complete his transfer."

"The guys want him to come because he has great quality and we all want to be a tightly-knit group together. [The situation is] quite complicated. It depends on us but hopefully it will be resolved soon."

Cesc friends saying they want him at the club? So what?

Whilshire, stranger to Mata says his playing style will fit in at Arsenal. Thats okay though?

It's the first time something has been said about Mata, and it wasn't basically every player on the squad. It's so obvious that Barca players are being encouraged to speak about Fabregas in the press.

Wilshere says Mata's style would fit in perfectly at Arsenal. Xavi says Arsenal are holding Fabregas hostage.

If you can't see the difference, then I can't say anything that will make you see it.

by kiranr Mon Aug 01, 2011 5:38 pm

juberish wrote:If you want a top player, you overpay. If you're not overpaying, then the player must be a gamble, mediocre, unknown.. or something. But a top WC players who can you can 100% guarantee can jump into your team from day one and start... then yes, you overpay. Barca needs to stop dragging this out, pay up or shut up. Retards want charity.

But Fabregas can't start. He will be on the bench when all the first teamers are fit. Hence no overpay!

by billy_gr Mon Aug 01, 2011 5:48 pm

guys a couple of points:

1. in the current market Cesc certainly costs 40+m.
2. Any team can stall a transfer as long as they want if the other team lets them do so. A strict deadline from Arsenal should have helped.
3. Fabregas should have made his intentions clear. eventually one of the two teams is going to be disappointed.
4. Fellow Barca fans, the "we don't need him" argument is not valid as we are not the ones to plan for the next year. The team apparently needs what the coach needs whether we like it or not. some times our football logic and our teams logic don't go hand to hand

by juberish Mon Aug 01, 2011 5:48 pm

kiranr wrote:
juberish wrote:If you want a top player, you overpay. If you're not overpaying, then the player must be a gamble, mediocre, unknown.. or something. But a top WC players who can you can 100% guarantee can jump into your team from day one and start... then yes, you overpay. Barca needs to stop dragging this out, pay up or shut up. Retards want charity.

But Fabregas can't start. He will be on the bench when all the first teamers are fit. Hence no overpay!

lol

a) he's a starter, if they bench him, that's their own fault. just because you don't like the taste of truffles doesnt mean that lowers the market value

b) he'd start

by kiranr Mon Aug 01, 2011 5:52 pm

billy_gr wrote:guys a couple of points:

1. in the current market Cesc certainly costs 40+m.
2. Any team can stall a transfer as long as they want if the other team lets them do so. A strict deadline from Arsenal should have helped.
3. Fabregas should have made his intentions clear. eventually one of the two teams is going to be disappointed.
4. Fellow Barca fans, the "we don't need him" argument is not valid as we are not the ones to plan for the next year. The team apparently needs what the coach needs whether we like it or not. some times our football logic and our teams logic don't go hand to hand

Don't you think Barcelona would have had him by now if pep really needed him? Look at Chygy, Ibra, Villa, Sanchez. The speed at which those transfers were done clearly shows we are prepared to wait out another year as Fabregas does not want to go anywhere else.

by kiranr Mon Aug 01, 2011 5:53 pm

juberish wrote:
kiranr wrote:
juberish wrote:If you want a top player, you overpay. If you're not overpaying, then the player must be a gamble, mediocre, unknown.. or something. But a top WC players who can you can 100% guarantee can jump into your team from day one and start... then yes, you overpay. Barca needs to stop dragging this out, pay up or shut up. Retards want charity.

But Fabregas can't start. He will be on the bench when all the first teamers are fit. Hence no overpay!

lol

a) he's a starter, if they bench him, that's their own fault. just because you don't like the taste of truffles doesnt mean that lowers the market value

b) he'd start

He would only start over Xavi or Iniesta. Both are not happening!

by juberish Mon Aug 01, 2011 5:56 pm

It doesnt have to come down to Cesc vs Xavi, they'd find a way to start him, but thats just my belief. We wont know til they have him.

But my analogy holds just fine. Just because you say you don't need him that bad, it doesnt change his value. Just because you already have a ton of diamonds, doesnt mean that you can buy more diamonds for below the market rate. There's no logic in that.

by Mr Nick09 Mon Aug 01, 2011 5:59 pm

Cesc should just come to Real, rosell doesnt even want him

by kiranr Mon Aug 01, 2011 6:02 pm

juberish wrote:It doesnt have to come down to Cesc vs Xavi, they'd find a way to start him, but thats just my belief. We wont know til they have him.

But my analogy holds just fine. Just because you say you don't need him that bad, it doesnt change his value. Just because you already have a ton of diamonds, doesnt mean that you can buy more diamonds for below the market rate. There's no logic in that.

Well, that is not the reason Barcelona are valuing him at 30m. It has mainly to do with injuries and him not starting as many matches as probably Sanchez would.

And what is market rate really? It is the price of comparable assets agreed upon by buyers and seller. Not many comparable players in the world of football. Very difficult to gauge the market rate in such a scenario!

by kiranr Mon Aug 01, 2011 6:04 pm

St_Nick09_of_Goal wrote:Cesc should just come to Real, rosell doesnt even want him

Madrid already has Oezil and Sahin, not mentioning Alonso. Why do you need Fabregas?

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