The new player-manager-director of football - Kylian Mbappe

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Post by The Demon of Carthage Thu May 26, 2022 2:25 pm

Doc wrote:However, to play Devil's advocate here, why shouldn't they be owners?

I don't see why there shouldn't be. However, I feel like we need to make a clear distinction between private ownership and state ownership of football clubs.

1. Private ownership: the idea of a football club being owned by an individual, a company or any private legal entity. They are usually very rich, but they still have to watch their finances. Meaning, fan-owned clubs and others can still compete with them.

A concrete example would be Roman's Chelsea. The man's fortune is valued at 9 billion and yet if you look at Chelsea's transfer dealings during his reign, you would see that he was actually operating within the other rich clubs' means and reach. He wasn't giving his players ridiculous salaries and his transfer offers didn't vary much from rich member-owned clubs

Another example would be John W. Henry the owner of Liverpool and the Boston Red Sox. His fortune is valued at 3.6 billion and yet Liverpool are spending their money sensibly and have to watch their balance, cover their losses and even scrimp to save money like everybody else during pandemics and financial crisis.

This is because even billionaires have many assets to watch over and they can't afford to spend more than what their revenues bring, and so clubs who generate their own money are still able to compete with them financially.

2. State ownership: the idea of a football club being owned by an organization that is being funded by an entire state. In this particular scenario, there are no rules. You don't have to watch your finances. You don't have to cover your losses. You don't have to watch your revenues. This is because you have a bottomless pit of "fuck-you" money, and you can pretty much outbid anybody, and nobody has a chance in hell of competing with you financially.

Also, with your strong connections within UEFA, you can literally buy their governing body and make them your puppets. As a result, you will always find ways to dodge FFP rules ( like the way PSG paid for Neymar's release clause) and even force UEFA to completely abandon them and replace them with more flexible ones (the new rules will be effective starting from 2025).

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Post by Myesyats Thu May 26, 2022 2:30 pm

halamadrid2 wrote:as much as I know, their offer was similar to [PSG's] offer."

Really huh? No way Madrid was offering a 300m sign on bonus Laughing
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Post by halamadrid2 Thu May 26, 2022 2:52 pm

He is Khalaifi's parrot. Just regurgitating everything the guy says. We along with Barca and Juve have become the numbet one enemy of Ceferin. He'll go out of his way to screw us and with his new buddy He'll effectively become their spokesperson
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Post by sportsczy Thu May 26, 2022 9:48 pm

This is a hilarious take by Madrid fans because FFP went into effect in 2011.  For decades, Real Madrid had overwhelming financial superiority over the rest of Europe, not because it had direct state ownership, but because of collaboration with the state and financial institutions in Spain:

1-  Tax exceptions for football in Spain - Spain had a separate tax structure that existed nowhere else in Europe that gave it an overwhelming advantage.  The EU banned it only recently.  Read here:  https://www.ft.com/content/2b6aa26f-f2ac-426f-b218-612f4c21695cit

2-  Collateralized loans with ridiculous valuations - Madrid could borrow ridiculous sums of money from financial institutions in Spain with ridiculous interest rates, nowhere near the required collateral and with no pressure to repay as the default clauses were geared for the borrower (which i could get these lol).  The idea was that, although the investment far overreached the club's current standing and ability to manage... such investment would grow the club to a level where they would eventually be able to catch up to the loans.  It's EXACTLY what Chelsea, City, PSG and others are doing using a different mechanism.

So Madrid fans crying about FFP should really just shut the fuck up already.  Juve too because there's plenty of shenanigans in that club's history.  I'd understand a lot more from other fans who don't have such financial backing.
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Post by futbol_bill Thu May 26, 2022 11:01 pm

You sure can make up or exaggerate!

The so called Beckham law was put in in 2005, hardly a historical event. It was put in to attract foreigners particularly to boost tourism, certain not specific to football. And it quickly changed in the case of futbol to image rights. That was hardly a Real Madrid benefit. And tax incentives or subsidies are hardly unique to Spain!

And the only loan that I recall Real Madrid took in regards to player signing was when he signed Ronaldo and Kaka (again hardly a historical event) to which he put the players (or their values) up for collateral. The rates were normal bank rates and that loan wasn’t long before it was paid off.

If you’re directing all this hate at Flo, then you also mention he has always operated the club within the operating budget, never allowing a player to be bigger than the club.

As to the UEFA FFP, you yourself have said it the past what a joke it is.


Last edited by futbol_bill on Thu May 26, 2022 11:06 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Post by The Demon of Carthage Thu May 26, 2022 11:05 pm

What the fuck are you talking about sports? We are talking about clubs having limitless funds due to them being backed by whole states and you are countering with "Well yeah, but Spain had at some point advantageous tax laws and Madrid benefitted from low interest rates"? Do you realize that you are shifting the goalposts and comparing two completely different things?

And when the fuck did we ever say that Madrid is this innocent institution founded and run by angels? This whataboutism is frankly irritating and you need to stop it.

The issue is that we have two clubs whose spending power far exceeds the rest, not because they bring in more revenues, but because whole states are behind them. This makes the idea of competing with them financially impossible.

And I pointed out the difference between them and a club like Chelsea that even though was owned by a billionaire, they still operated within the other club's means. Their former owner had a net worth of 9 billion, and yet their most expensive signing in the club's history is Lukaku with £101.70m. Madrid, in order to bid 200m for Mbappé, had to save up for three straight seasons. All these clubs have a wage structure and salary caps that are highly predicated on their revenues, and if they mess with it, they go tits up.

This is why all of them are generally not that far off from each other in terms of spending power and as a result, it allows fan-owned clubs to still be able to compete with privately owned clubs like Chelsea. It's only when state-backed clubs with unlimited resources come into the picture that it becomes a whole new ball game and the competition becomes practically impossible.

Think of it this way: there is a car race from point A to Point B. Everybody at the circuit have cars. Some of them are lucky enough to race with a Hennessey Venom. Others are less fortunate and have to race with much, much slower cars, but all of them are racing with cars nonetheless. All of them except for PSG who decided to race with a spacecraft instead.
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Post by sportsczy Thu May 26, 2022 11:14 pm

One has a state (and its financial institutions) overtly funding a club... while the other had a state (and its financial intuitions) covertly funding a club.

Different financial engineering.  Same outcome = the clubs had access to quasi-limitless funds via mechanisms provided by the state and the financial institutions of that state.

How is it different from a practical perspective?

Just to remind everyone, FFP was finally passed after Real Madrid bought Kaka, CR, Benzema, etc.  by getting €243m of loans by Spanish financial institutions, despite the club being in deep financial shit under Calderon, and Spain basically allowing football clubs and players to have highly beneficial tax treatment (which was illegal btw, read here: https://www.eurosport.com/football/liga/2020-2021/barcelona-and-real-madrid-will-have-to-pay-back-millions-in-taxes-court-says-in-win-for-eu_sto8158811/story.shtml)  

So Madrid fans talking shit about other clubs outspending them is the like the pot calling the kettle black.


Last edited by sportsczy on Thu May 26, 2022 11:21 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Post by Lord Spencer Thu May 26, 2022 11:21 pm

One state answers to its voters.

Frankly, any comparison between the two proves you have gone beyond the realm of reason, and is just being trollish or idiotic.

At which point, it proves that the QSG sporty washing policy actually works.
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Post by sportsczy Thu May 26, 2022 11:23 pm

Lord Spencer wrote:One state answers to its voters.

Frankly, any comparison between the two proves you have gone beyond the realm of reason, and is just being trollish or idiotic.

At which point, it proves that the QSG sporty washing policy actually works.

??? one state answers to voters?

What's that have to do with state spending? The US answers to voters and there's billions sent to various interest groups. You think a democratic state is somehow less corrupt?
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Post by futbol_bill Thu May 26, 2022 11:48 pm

sportsczy wrote:One has a state (and its financial institutions) overtly funding a club... while the other had a state (and its financial intuitions) covertly funding a club.

Different financial engineering.  Same outcome = the clubs had access to quasi-limitless funds via mechanisms provided by the state and the financial institutions of that state.

How is it different from a practical perspective?

Just to remind everyone, FFP was finally passed after Real Madrid bought Kaka, CR, Benzema, etc.  by getting €243m of loans by Spanish financial institutions, despite the club being in deep financial shit under Calderon, and Spain basically allowing football clubs and players to have highly beneficial tax treatment (which was illegal btw, read here:  https://www.eurosport.com/football/liga/2020-2021/barcelona-and-real-madrid-will-have-to-pay-back-millions-in-taxes-court-says-in-win-for-eu_sto8158811/story.shtml)  

So Madrid fans talking shit about other clubs outspending them is the like the pot calling the kettle black.


For christ’s sake, get your facts right! The Beckham law was not put in place for footballers (it’s only called the Beckham law because he was the first foreigner to take advantage of the rule) and the loan you are referring to was not at ridiculous rates and it was paid off within a few years.the financial institutions are privately owed and not under government control.  Unlike the Arab state owned teams, the Spanish government has not had any ownership of Real Madrid nor do they direct the bank on what they should do (other than normal federal banking regulations). The tax law you keep referring to wasn’t aimed at footballers, not Real Madrid, it was aimed at foreign workers to help boost tourism. Not that different than the tax incentives and subsidies like in Ireland for example.

And FFP had nothing to do with Real Madrid. It was implemented to prevent European teams from running up huge debt and losses and to be financially prudent, something that has never been the case at Real Madrid. It was meant for teams going literally bankrupt.  

you started off your BS by saying decades of Madrid purchases yet the examples you are referring to are at most 15 years ago! And if you look at the past 15 years, Real Madrid is not even in the top 10 in terms of expenditures!

And finally club was not in deep financial shit under Calderon. He was a very poor president no doubt, but he was kicked out for voting irregularities. It certainly was nothing like the current Barcelona situation that you are implying.

Why don’t you just run away to your French fantasy and enjoy your state owned team! Amazing how you ridicule both Juventus and Real Madrid, teams you supported as long as Zidane was with them for practices you falsely state they practiced yet your current team of choice is indeed doing far worse offenses. What a hypocrite you are!


Last edited by futbol_bill on Fri May 27, 2022 12:50 am; edited 1 time in total
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Post by Lord Spencer Fri May 27, 2022 12:30 am

sportsczy wrote:
Lord Spencer wrote:One state answers to its voters.

Frankly, any comparison between the two proves you have gone beyond the realm of reason, and is just being trollish or idiotic.

At which point, it proves that the QSG sporty washing policy actually works.

??? one state answers to voters?

What's that have to do with state spending? The US answers to voters and there's billions sent to various interest groups. You think a democratic state is somehow less corrupt?


If the state is doing something that the people consider wrong, or unethical, they are able to vote against the politicians that made the decisions. The ability to influence the state by the people, even if not often used, is the difference.

The Qatari royal family are not going to be put.to task for wasting their country's money on their expensive French toys by their people.

And yes, a democratic state is less corrupt. I am not going to debate this established fact with you. Already, you are proving to be an insufferable troll on this topic.

Sport washing goal achieved.
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Post by Perucho21 Fri May 27, 2022 2:02 am

https://youtu.be/D52FhBx-K3s

Exclusive interview between Pedrerol and Mbappe today on chiringuito.

Very interesting
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Post by futbol_bill Fri May 27, 2022 2:38 am

Lol
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Post by halamadrid2 Fri May 27, 2022 7:01 am

And the media tour continues Laughing
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Post by Warrior Fri May 27, 2022 9:36 am

If Piss St-Germain manage to sign Zidane it will unlock everything for them, he's the idol of all those talented young french players. Even Pogback is stalling because of it.

Supposedly Zidane's priority is France NT but they insist a lot offering him XXL contract. Hope for all of us that he cannot be convinced and PSG ends up with an unknown portuguese as coach Laughing
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Post by halamadrid2 Sun May 29, 2022 9:05 am



We move on. Bye felicia
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Post by Myesyats Sun May 29, 2022 9:42 am

Yeah no player should be bigger than club, especially if they're french
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Post by halamadrid2 Tue Jun 14, 2022 4:11 pm



Laughing
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Post by The Demon of Carthage Tue Jun 14, 2022 6:51 pm

Imagine giving a 23-year old the power to hire and fire whoever he wants, in addition to a mountain of gold Laughing

If you ever need the very definition of a small club, look no further than PSG.
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Post by halamadrid2 Thu Jun 16, 2022 7:38 am

Perez: "This is not the Mbappé I wanted to bring, he is another one, who must have changed his dream. He changes, he is offered other things, he is pressured and he is already another footballer. There is no one at Real Madrid above the club. He is a great player, he can win more than others, but it is a collective sport and we have values and principles that we cannot change", he added.

The Mbappé who was going to come here is not this one. If it is, I prefer him to stay at PSG. I want the one with the dream. Impossible in three years? In three years' time we'll all be bald? This Mbappé is not my Mbappé, who refuses to do a publicity stunt with his national team... I don't want that. It could have been a slip of the tongue, but I think he was mistaken.
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Post by halamadrid2 Thu Jun 16, 2022 8:13 am

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Post by Doc Thu Jun 16, 2022 3:28 pm

Mbappe living rent free in Perez's mind or he just dropping diss tracks towards PSG?
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Post by The Demon of Carthage Thu Jun 16, 2022 6:08 pm

halamadrid2 wrote:

I loved the whole interview. I thought he answered the questions very well and cleared the whole situation up.

I also loved how he tore Tebas to shreds so violently, La Liga had to release an official statement afterwards Laughing
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Post by sportsczy Thu Jun 16, 2022 7:38 pm

The problem with Mbappe and the NT is a longstanding one between the players and the NT... he just took a stand.

The issue is more that most of the money from these NT promotion go in the pockets of the bureaucrats as opposed to football-related activities.  Imagine if Tebas and La Liga pocketed 70% of the revenue from La Liga.  Well that's what is happening with the FFF.

Mbappe can't call the FFF embezzlers and frauds.... but he can make it clear that he wants the money to go to "places that are more in line" with what he expects.

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