The US Politics Thread

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Post by El Gunner Tue Mar 02, 2021 10:50 am

Myesyats wrote:Syria was bombed quicker than you got your Corvid relief checks smh

Subhanallah

"anything but Trump" 🤡

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Post by McLewis Tue Mar 02, 2021 7:42 pm

I blame the weakness of Senate Democrats more than Biden tbh. Biden would sign it tomorrow if he could, but the whole thing is probably going to be watered down by the Senate because the Dems don't have the balls to eliminate the filibuster and push this through reconciliation without Republicans. They're allowing ultra-Centrists like Joe Manchin to hold the whole thing hostage.

All in the name of this "unity" thing that we keep hearing about it.

Bombing the Middle East is (unfortunately) as American a past time as baseball now. That shit is pretty much automated. We could have no president at all and Syria would still get bombed because our military budget is absolutely liberal-proof.
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Post by elitedam Tue Mar 02, 2021 8:10 pm

I don't think it has anything to do with unity. Manchin is a democratic senator from West Virginia in 2021. This is the best they can do. Having a split senate was always gonna be a pain.
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Post by El Gunner Tue Mar 02, 2021 8:14 pm

^^ @mclewis the way you worded that, regardless of the "unfortunate" disclaimer, seems like you are way too used to it/socialised to it, and that's absurdity right there for you lads

and why are you speaking like you know Biden personally...? what you see on the screens is just a facade/a ploy/a tactic

we've been here before, we're just being herded around in circles
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Post by BarrileteCosmico Tue Mar 02, 2021 9:08 pm

McLewis wrote:I blame the weakness of Senate Democrats more than Biden tbh. Biden would sign it tomorrow if he could, but the whole thing is probably going to be watered down by the Senate because the Dems don't have the balls to eliminate the filibuster and push this through reconciliation without Republicans. They're allowing ultra-Centrists like Joe Manchin to hold the whole thing hostage.

All in the name of this "unity" thing that we keep hearing about it.

Bombing the Middle East is (unfortunately) as American a past time as baseball now. That shit is pretty much automated. We could have no president at all and Syria would still get bombed because our military budget is absolutely liberal-proof.
How would they get rid of the fillibuster if Manchin won't vote for it? They have (at best) 49 votes for it.
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Post by Hapless_Hans Tue Mar 02, 2021 10:13 pm

murderous scum, the whole lot of them

hope the old fucker dies soon
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Post by McLewis Tue Mar 02, 2021 10:58 pm

elitedam wrote:I don't think it has anything to do with unity. Manchin is a democratic senator from West Virginia in 2021. This is the best they can do. Having a split senate was always gonna be a pain.

My problem is that this plays right into GOP hands. If this is truly the best the Dems can do, they have no hope of holding the Senate in the midterms let alone the house. A 15/hr minimum wage is not going to pass with the support of 10 Republicans so Dems will be forced to remove it from the bill, leaving around 1 million people in poverty that likely would've benefitted from this. And then when this package passes, watered down, the GOP will decry it as wasteful spending anyway and use it in the midterms to take Dem seats, retaking Congress on the road to retaking the White House in 2024. I've seen this movie before.

El Gunner wrote:^^ @mclewis the way you worded that, regardless of the "unfortunate" disclaimer, seems like you are way too used to it/socialised to it, and that's absurdity right there for you lads

and why are you speaking like you know Biden personally...? what you see on the screens is just a facade/a ploy/a tactic

we've been here before, we're just being herded around in circles

I am resigned to what I know is coming. Because it happened under Obama back in 2010. I do believe Biden is as fundamentally good a person as a politican can be, but more specifically, he knows he needs to get this relief passed ASAP. He'll sign it out of pure political expediency. This isn't me being starry-eyed. This is me recognizing the political calculus.

BarrileteCosmico wrote:
McLewis wrote:I blame the weakness of Senate Democrats more than Biden tbh. Biden would sign it tomorrow if he could, but the whole thing is probably going to be watered down by the Senate because the Dems don't have the balls to eliminate the filibuster and push this through reconciliation without Republicans. They're allowing ultra-Centrists like Joe Manchin to hold the whole thing hostage.

All in the name of this "unity" thing that we keep hearing about it.

Bombing the Middle East is (unfortunately) as American a past time as baseball now. That shit is pretty much automated. We could have no president at all and Syria would still get bombed because our military budget is absolutely liberal-proof.
How would they get rid of the fillibuster if Manchin won't vote for it? They have (at best) 49 votes for it.

He's the most spineless among them. He'd rather let millions suffer through this pandemic than risk the possibility of losing his seat because he voted for something they all know needs to go. He could lose that seat to an actual Republican and there really wouldn't be much of a difference. Personally, I think the whole party is complicit because no one is applying any type of pressure to him. And they can do it. They simply won't. Cowards, all of them.
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Post by Myesyats Tue Mar 02, 2021 11:14 pm

Hapless_Hans wrote:murderous scum, the whole lot of them

hope the old fucker dies soon

We all know america has 3 presidents and neither of them is Biden


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honorable mention goes out to the oil industry and other big tech players.


the senate and house is there only to create an illusion that "democracy" is present in america
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Post by BarrileteCosmico Thu Mar 04, 2021 2:04 am

Greenwald's scathing review on Biden's Saudi policy so far

https://greenwald.substack.com/p/bidens-protection-of-murderous-saudi-a9c

Can't say I disagree with any of it tbh
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Post by McLewis Fri Mar 05, 2021 11:03 pm



I knew there would be 2 at least in Manchin and Sinema....but 8? That's very surprising.

This is why the Democrats are barely better than Republicans. People put their health on the line to put them in power and save them from the naked tyranny of Republicans. Many who would've benefitted from a higher minimum wage risked their lives to stand in long lines to vote put them in power. This is how they were repaid.

The GOP are going to reclaim power in 2022. That's a near certainty.
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Post by BarrileteCosmico Sat Mar 06, 2021 12:18 pm

Manchin gutted the UI benefits in the 11th hour Laughing Literally the most important part of the bill. And the dems just took it.

Agreed with McLewis, GOP is coming back in 2022
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Post by RealGunner Sat Mar 06, 2021 3:16 pm

Hopefully with Trump returning. Miles better than Biden in terms of social, foreign and economic policies

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Post by Hapless_Hans Sat Mar 06, 2021 3:37 pm

The left needs to found a new party IMO

The Democrats are beyond saving, and if  anyone doubts it take a look at fucking Chuck Schumer saying 'erection' instead of 'insurrection' in the opening remarks to Trumps impeachment

They are clueless and incompetent when it comes to getting things done the people who vote for them want,
and then, who would have guessed, suddenly they are very determined and successful when it comes to being corrupt and fucking their voters over

the left needs to get out of this abusive relationship they have with the establishment
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Post by CBarca Sat Mar 06, 2021 6:49 pm

Was responding on mobile and accidentally clicked back.

Gonna keep my thoughts short then: I won't take any Manchin slander. The guy continues to win in West Fucking Virginia. He's way, way more liberal than he has any goddamn right to be, and Dems are gonna have to fucking deal with it if they want to pass legislation. Everyone else can suck a big one though. Including and especially Sinema.

And Chuck Schumer is literally incompetent and has been for years. Fuck that guy.

But let's not forget that the Dems are currently trying to represent a varied group from hardcore progressives to people center-right of the median voter. The right has completely abandoned the median voter and this is the result. Not a single GOP vote for a wildly popular bill. That's not to excuse the Dems from being atrocious. GOP was ALWAYS going to reclaim in 2022. That's why you go balls to the walls for these two years.

Institutional reform is needed or things aren't gonna get better. If I've said it once I've said it a million times
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Post by BarrileteCosmico Sat Mar 06, 2021 8:47 pm

There is a difference between being more to the right than the rest of the party and introducing an 11th hour change  just because you're in a power trip. And if your only goal is be on a power trip, at least try not to target the part of the bill that does the most good. Fuck that guy. He had weeks to voice his concerns.


Last edited by BarrileteCosmico on Sun Mar 07, 2021 1:58 pm; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : typo)
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Post by McLewis Sun Mar 07, 2021 1:51 pm

Agreed with BC. I'm here for the Manchin slander. He's a fucking ghoul. It's not an accomplishment to keep that seat in West Virginia blue when his voting record reads GOP-lite anyway. That seat is actually purple. Jon Ossoff and Raphael Warnock, who represent a red state in Georgia, voted Yes. Mark Kelly, representing Arizona, another red state, voted Yes. It is possible to do this. Those 8 actively chose not to and Manchin's the leader among them.

I mean, just look at this - Manchin's Voting Record under Trump

He knows he's the lynchpin for many of these votes and he revels in it. West Virginia have the 5th highest poverty rate in the country yet he actively denies these folks any way out of it for what?....to stay in Congress? Because he's afraid of the other team beating him? When did that become a reason to keep people in poverty? Because it keeps him wealthy.
As Rep. Ayanna Pressley put it, it's policy violence.
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Post by Young Kaz Sun Mar 07, 2021 2:33 pm

McLewis wrote:Agreed with BC. I'm here for the Manchin slander. He's a fucking ghoul. It's not an accomplishment to keep that seat in West Virginia blue when his voting record reads GOP-lite anyway. That seat is actually purple. Jon Ossoff and Raphael Warnock, who represent a red state in Georgia, voted Yes. Mark Kelly, representing Arizona, another red state, voted Yes. It is possible to do this. Those 8 actively chose not to and Manchin's the leader among them.

I mean, just look at this - Manchin's Voting Record under Trump

He knows he's the lynchpin for many of these votes and he revels in it. West Virginia have the 5th highest poverty rate in the country yet he actively denies these folks any way out of it for what?....to stay in Congress? Because he's afraid of the other team beating him? When did that become a reason to keep people in poverty? Because it keeps him wealthy.
As Rep. Ayanna Pressley put it, it's policy violence.


Georgia is actually Blue sir Very Happy

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Post by CBarca Sun Mar 07, 2021 2:39 pm

Calling WV purple and comparing Georgia and Arizona to WV is one of the most disingenuous things I've ever read from you McLewis. Georgia and Arizona are probably at the point we can call purple. West Virginia, by winning margin in the 2020 election, is the second most red state in the union.

If anyone thinks a democrat not named Manchin could get within 20 points of a senatorial seat in WV is high off their ass.

Look I don't like Manchin the person. I don't like Manchin the politician. But that piece of shit has delivered when it comes to big ticket Dem items and has done so again. Yes he's GOP lite and that means the guy is 100x better than even so called moderate republicans like Murkowski and Collins. In fact he's about 1.3 trillion times better than them, to be specific.

If Manchin were part of the GOP we would hail him as the least problematic member of the GOP. He's part of the Dem party, and he's one of the less problematic members. Dems can choose to have 49 and deal with his bullshit and maybe get some skinny ass 500 billion through or they can deal with Manchin's bullshit and get 2 trillion.

I can't justify all his votes but he finds a way to win in WV everytime. I trust him. Pussies like Sinema who won in a state that's not anymore red than WI and yet don't have the balls of Tammy Baldwin are much more problematic than getting a Democratic vote from the 2nd most conservative state in the nation.

To be clear BC I'm not talking about slander for his politics on unemployment, that's fine to talk about and criticize. It's the "primary Manchin" shit that gets me fired up. Stacey Abrams and Manchin are literally the only reason Dems don't have 47 senators right now. There are much, much bigger issues in the Democratic party than Joe "I'm much more liberal than I have any right to be" Manchin.
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Post by BarrileteCosmico Sun Mar 07, 2021 4:02 pm

https://www.govtrack.us/congress/members/joe_manchin/412391

Yeah I agree with that, looking at this chart he's actually to the right of Murkowski and Collins and yet he voted for and them against. Obviously his vote is every bit as crucial as that of the GA senators, especially when the GOP insists on voting on party lines rather than make a true attempt at unity.
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Post by McLewis Sun Mar 07, 2021 4:52 pm

GA and AZ have blue Dem senators, yet red GOP Legislatures,  and red Governors. Let's call it purple. My point is that both GA senators plus Kelly fought hard for their seats and could easily lose them again in '22 yet didn't let that prevent them from doing what 8 others chose not to do: The right thing.
CBarca wrote:Calling WV purple and comparing Georgia and Arizona to WV is one of the most disingenuous things I've ever read from you McLewis. Georgia and Arizona are probably at the point we can call purple. West Virginia, by winning margin in the 2020 election, is the second most red state in the union.

If anyone thinks a democrat not named Manchin could get within 20 points of a senatorial seat in WV is high off their ass.

Look I don't like Manchin the person. I don't like Manchin the politician. But that piece of shit has delivered when it comes to big ticket Dem items and has done so again. Yes he's GOP lite and that means the guy is 100x better than even so called moderate republicans like Murkowski and Collins. In fact he's about 1.3 trillion times better than them, to be specific.

If Manchin were part of the GOP we would hail him as the least problematic member of the GOP. He's part of the Dem party, and he's one of the less problematic members. Dems can choose to have 49 and deal with his bullshit and maybe get some skinny ass 500 billion through or they can deal with Manchin's bullshit and get 2 trillion.

I can't justify all his votes but he finds a way to win in WV everytime. I trust him. Pussies like Sinema who won in a state that's not anymore red than WI and yet don't have the balls of Tammy Baldwin are much more problematic than getting a Democratic vote from the 2nd most conservative state in the nation.

To be clear BC I'm not talking about slander for his politics on unemployment, that's fine to talk about and criticize. It's the "primary Manchin" shit that gets me fired up. Stacey Abrams and Manchin are literally the only reason Dems don't have 47 senators right now. There are much, much bigger issues in the Democratic party than Joe "I'm much more liberal than I have any right to be" Manchin.


I stand by what I said regarding Manchin. He is part of the problem, not the solution. He forced Democrats into watering down a bill that would've helped his constituents significantly. I will never give him a pass for that and I don't even live in WVA.

He is emblematic of just how weak Senate Democrats really are, constantly afraid of Republicans who live rent free in their heads. So afraid of losing to Republicans that they leave people behind....and still lose to Republicans anyway. Every single person who could've been helped by this bill, but won't because Manchin just had to have his way, can thank him and the 7 other cowards for their worsened situation. This was a big chance (perhaps the only chance) to make the minimum wage a living wage and now that's gone. I don't believe for a second it will ever make it to its own bill. the GOP and the Manchin Caucus will kill it dead before it gets anywhere near the floor.

At least with Republicans, we know where they stand in terms of poverty and a living wage. With Democrats? Smoke and mirrors.

So I truly could care less about how I have been disingenuous and how much Manchin is liberal. What good is that when he's never liberal when it comes to voting for liberal policies?

Until he actually starts acting like the liberal people seem to think he is and putting his neck out there to help the working poor, he's a corporate-owned ghoul in my book and undeserving of any respect.
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Post by Hapless_Hans Sun Mar 07, 2021 5:53 pm

Young Kaz wrote:
McLewis wrote:Agreed with BC. I'm here for the Manchin slander. He's a fucking ghoul. It's not an accomplishment to keep that seat in West Virginia blue when his voting record reads GOP-lite anyway. That seat is actually purple. Jon Ossoff and Raphael Warnock, who represent a red state in Georgia, voted Yes. Mark Kelly, representing Arizona, another red state, voted Yes. It is possible to do this. Those 8 actively chose not to and Manchin's the leader among them.

I mean, just look at this - Manchin's Voting Record under Trump

He knows he's the lynchpin for many of these votes and he revels in it. West Virginia have the 5th highest poverty rate in the country yet he actively denies these folks any way out of it for what?....to stay in Congress? Because he's afraid of the other team beating him? When did that become a reason to keep people in poverty? Because it keeps him wealthy.
As Rep. Ayanna Pressley put it, it's policy violence.


Georgia is actually Blue sir Very Happy


Georgia Is Blue really should be some kind of Ray Charles classic
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Post by RealGunner Sun Mar 07, 2021 8:14 pm

Sorry if this has been discussed earlier but this stimulus money of $1.9 trillion

Is it just being printed out of thin air?
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Post by CBarca Mon Mar 08, 2021 4:01 am

I think those are fair points McLewis although I disagree with them. I don't have anything to add I haven't said a million times. I find politics fun to discuss and debate but US politics are corrupted by rotten institutions that have killed the balance of power between the two parties.

In an ideal world, Manchin is part of a center-right party in a multi-party system and the parties on the left form a government, and I slander and make fun of Manchin as much as I want.

The reality is that Manchin is an extremely useful tool for the Democratic party to use. A get out of jail free card for being too weak and too incompetent to get an actual working majority. He's the devil you make a deal with. He'll rip out your throat because he's the devil, but he'll deliver on the big ticket Dem items. And Manchin usually delivers on the big ticket items.

And I'm getting hypothetical here, but if Schumer wasn't so goddamned inept at his job, I really wonder whether Manchin stands in the way of $15/hour if he is the only vote in the way. When it comes to 8 senators publicly rejecting $15, it's certain Manchin was just a front for a larger inability to whip the necessary votes.

Anyway, I don't like Manchin. I should make that clear. I respect his ability to win in WV though and I cut him some slack on that -- man is an increasingly rare thing to see in US politics right now. It's miraculous, in fact. With that being said, I don't like him and if he were truly liberal, he would go for filibuster reform + DC/PR statehood so that the entire parties wants and desires don't rest on someone who has to win in fcking West Virginia.

Dems brought this on themselves. BTW, no $15 is really disappointing, but $2 trillion is huge. I don't think this is all doom and gloom.

EDIT: For the record, we do agree that Dems should be going all out these next two years. I fundamentally think we agree politically and policy wise. I agree even if that potentially costs Manchin a seat. However, he does so while gaining DC/PR -- that's my ideal plan. Manchin should be sacrificed to help balance the senate a little more for at least the short term future.

I don't think Dems can do it though. Specifically, Chuck Schumer is a bitch. And once we get to this point, we're back at square one: my opinion that the problems in the Democratic party run much deeper than Manchin, and I don't personally level the majority of my criticism at him.
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Post by Myesyats Mon Mar 08, 2021 2:50 pm

BarrileteCosmico wrote:https://www.govtrack.us/congress/members/joe_manchin/412391

Yeah I agree with that, looking at this chart he's actually to the right of Murkowski and Collins and yet he voted for and them against. Obviously his vote is every bit as crucial as that of the GA senators, especially when the GOP insists on voting on party lines rather than make a true attempt at unity.

I remember times when parties could truly work in a bipartisan fashion and not just vote along party lines every single time. Now it's us vs them totally against the welfare of the people.
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Post by BarrileteCosmico Mon Mar 08, 2021 2:51 pm

https://www.politico.com/amp/news/2021/03/07/joe-manchin-filibuster-senate-474197

If Manchin makes this happen I'll take my mean words about him back
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Post by McLewis Mon Mar 08, 2021 7:19 pm

CBarca wrote:I think those are fair points McLewis although I disagree with them. I don't have anything to add I haven't said a million times. I find politics fun to discuss and debate but US politics are corrupted by rotten institutions that have killed the balance of power between the two parties.

In an ideal world, Manchin is part of a center-right party in a multi-party system and the parties on the left form a government, and I slander and make fun of Manchin as much as I want.

The reality is that Manchin is an extremely useful tool for the Democratic party to use. A get out of jail free card for being too weak and too incompetent to get an actual working majority. He's the devil you make a deal with. He'll rip out your throat because he's the devil, but he'll deliver on the big ticket Dem items. And Manchin usually delivers on the big ticket items.

And I'm getting hypothetical here, but if Schumer wasn't so goddamned inept at his job, I really wonder whether Manchin stands in the way of $15/hour if he is the only vote in the way. When it comes to 8 senators publicly rejecting $15, it's certain Manchin was just a front for a larger inability to whip the necessary votes.

Anyway, I don't like Manchin. I should make that clear. I respect his ability to win in WV though and I cut him some slack on that -- man is an increasingly rare thing to see in US politics right now. It's miraculous, in fact. With that being said, I don't like him and if he were truly liberal, he would go for filibuster reform + DC/PR statehood so that the entire parties wants and desires don't rest on someone who has to win in fcking West Virginia.

Dems brought this on themselves. BTW, no $15 is really disappointing, but $2 trillion is huge. I don't think this is all doom and gloom.

EDIT: For the record, we do agree that Dems should be going all out these next two years. I fundamentally think we agree politically and policy wise. I agree even if that potentially costs Manchin a seat. However, he does so while gaining DC/PR -- that's my ideal plan. Manchin should be sacrificed to help balance the senate a little more for at least the short term future.

I don't think Dems can do it though. Specifically, Chuck Schumer is a bitch. And once we get to this point, we're back at square one: my opinion that the problems in the Democratic party run much deeper than Manchin, and I don't personally level the majority of my criticism at him.

I guess I'm just not as enamored with Manchin as everyone else. He's a corporate sellout, just like all other Centrists. More beholden to the corporations and special interest groups that pull his strings than the people that vote for him. I find nothing about him to be impressive.

The best play imo for the Dems is to pass as much of their agenda as they possibly can (without the GOP if needed) and then run for re-election on the positive effects of those policies given that the GOP will certainly run on the negative effects. Ignoring the GOP naysayers is super important. They're on the sidelines. Let them stay there. Fuck all this unity shit.

Of course, Schumer is too spineless to do that though. Just like Reid before him. And that's why the GOP will bide their time, keep their messaging simple, and take back Congress in 2022.


Myesyats wrote:
BarrileteCosmico wrote:https://www.govtrack.us/congress/members/joe_manchin/412391

Yeah I agree with that, looking at this chart he's actually to the right of Murkowski and Collins and yet he voted for and them against. Obviously his vote is every bit as crucial as that of the GA senators, especially when the GOP insists on voting on party lines rather than make a true attempt at unity.

I remember times when parties could truly work in a bipartisan fashion and not just vote along party lines every single time. Now it's us vs them totally against the welfare of the people.

Republicans killed this in the 90s. You can thank the likes of Newt Gingrich for it. He made politics the slimy mess it is today. You could even argue the beginning of the end of true bipartisanship began under Reagan.

BarrileteCosmico wrote:https://www.politico.com/amp/news/2021/03/07/joe-manchin-filibuster-senate-474197

If Manchin makes this happen I'll take my mean words about him back
I want to to know what "painful" means in this context. If it's the original method for filibustering, standing for hours on end to physically prevent a vote, then yeah that alone would be a deterrant.
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