2020 US presidential election

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Post by sportsczy on Wed Nov 25, 2020 1:36 am

Financial literacy and money management are not taught in French schools either...  it's a liberal arts education until the last 2 years.  You can then choose a path that targets which university and what program you want to go to.  You can't get into those universities and programs without the proper baccalaureat designation.

There's nothing democratic about it.  If you're a late bloomer, you're screwed because you can't take certain designations unless you have the grades.  If you're really poor, they put you in "professional school", which basically trains you to not go to university and do professional work like carpentry, plumbing, etc.

Many of the North African immigrants in France aren't admitted to secondary schools that prepare them to do well on the baccalaureat.  So they predominantly are forced into the "professional" route in an economy that suffers from chronic high unemployment.

The inner city struggles are no different in the US from anywhere else.

Also, re the "extremist" agenda... the ideals aren't extremist; they're just idealistic.  Regardless, there's plenty of money in the existing budget to make these dreams happen and then some.  There's no reason that some of the obnoxious money we spend on our military can't be moved towards social programs...  We spend 800 billion a year on the military.  China's next at 261 billion.  Then India 71.1 and Russia at 65.1.  Explain to me why our military budget needs to be so bloated compared to everyone else...  and given this fact, how can i trust the government to spend money wisely.

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Post by McLewis on Wed Nov 25, 2020 6:51 pm

Well Republicans have told us that the way to peace is through strength and that America must be the strongest of them all, hence the massive military budget. You cut that and you open yourself up to charges of "making America weak" and "strengthening our enemies", even though neither are true.

I would love to see the military budget significantly defunded and that money funneled into social programs that improve education and the plight of the poor across the country. I'm pragmatic enough to know Democrats don't have the spine to do it though. Centrism strikes again.
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Post by FennecFox7 on Thu Nov 26, 2020 3:34 am

Progressives are on the right track by the way with their beliefs sports. You’re demonizing them mainly on the economy, but you are thinking one dimensional. Yes, high taxes and lots of buerocratic programs are not the best option but let’s be real, the student loan bubble and Wall Street deregulation as well as tax loop holes are much bigger issues. I haven’t even gone into the social issues..

I respect them a hell of a lot more then neo liberals/conservatives who kiss the establishments ass. Voting for Biden was a vote against trump. And Kamala Harris is a snake as well.

I expect progressives to have a make or break in 4 years with the democrats. What they did to Bernie to me with the media and manipulating people to vote for Biden was the last straw. There’s too much information to not realize that both sides are the same and play the same circus for everyone to watch while wars and big corporations ruin our lives. Don’t be brainwashed. They’re just as bad as republicans.
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Post by sportsczy on Sun Nov 29, 2020 5:02 am

@McLewis wrote:Well Republicans have told us that the way to peace is through strength and that America must be the strongest of them all, hence the massive military budget. You cut that and you open yourself up to charges of "making America weak" and "strengthening our enemies", even though neither are true.

I would love to see the military budget significantly defunded and that money funneled into social programs that improve education and the plight of the poor across the country. I'm pragmatic enough to know Democrats don't have the spine to do it though. Centrism strikes again.

That is the shame of it. It's nonsense. To me, it's a scam.

That money should be used to help fund a lot of the programs you're talking about. I hope Biden and crew have the courage to take it on.
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Post by McLewis on Sun Nov 29, 2020 10:02 pm

@sportsczy wrote:
@McLewis wrote:Well Republicans have told us that the way to peace is through strength and that America must be the strongest of them all, hence the massive military budget. You cut that and you open yourself up to charges of "making America weak" and "strengthening our enemies", even though neither are true.

I would love to see the military budget significantly defunded and that money funneled into social programs that improve education and the plight of the poor across the country. I'm pragmatic enough to know Democrats don't have the spine to do it though. Centrism strikes again.

That is the shame of it.  It's nonsense.  To me, it's a scam.

That money should be used to help fund a lot of the programs you're talking about.  I hope Biden and crew have the courage to take it on.


They don't and they won't. It cuts against the Biden campaign's unity message, which was a big part of wooing disaffected Republicans into turning on Trump.

Biden is far too much of a Centrist to rock the boat, especially with Trump's influence having not fully been diminished by this election.

Biden will do what Centrists always do: Go along to get along.

It's weak and spineless yet it represents a return to normalcy that so many crave, even if its the same normalcy that got us Trump in the first place.
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Post by BarrileteCosmico on Sun Nov 29, 2020 11:09 pm

@McLewis wrote:
It's weak and spineless yet it represents a return to normalcy that so many crave, even if its the same normalcy that got us Trump in the first place.

hmmm disagree. Trump represents a 'reaction' to that normalcy (and having a black man in the white house), he's not a consequence of it. Romney or McCain would've been a republican equivalent to 'normalcy'. Trump was something else.
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Post by McLewis on Tue Dec 01, 2020 2:08 am

@BarrileteCosmico wrote:
@McLewis wrote:
It's weak and spineless yet it represents a return to normalcy that so many crave, even if its the same normalcy that got us Trump in the first place.

hmmm disagree. Trump represents a 'reaction' to that normalcy (and having a black man in the white house), he's not a consequence of it. Romney or McCain would've been a republican equivalent to 'normalcy'. Trump was something else.


Fair enough. My overall point here is that centrism, be it Romney, McCain on the Republican side or Obama, Clinton and Biden on the Democrat side has a direct correlation to Trump. Decades of Centrist rule led up to what happened in 2016. Returning to what got us the worst president in history is only useful if this "return to normalcy" is followed by a move in a truly progressive direction in 2024. With Trump's influence far from on the wane, it appears Democratic pragmatism will win out again and we'll see more Centrism, and thus the threat of more Trump. It is the definition of insanity.

That said, I've kept an eye on Biden's appointments to his administration. There are a fair amount of progressives among the long-time aids he's chosen for key positions. His economic team in particular is quite progressive.
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Post by sportsczy on Tue Dec 01, 2020 3:14 am

I actually think the opposite.

Centrists are the reason the US became so great.  After every election, victors and vanquished would always get together and work to make the country better.  That stopped when centrists became the exception while extremists became the norm in US politics.  It's all about sabotaging the other side regardless of the cost to the country.

I hope against all hope that centrists, and America's wonderful culture of compromise, returns.  It won't though.  The last great generation (the WW2 generation) is long gone and only immigrants understand true hardship...  The US is comprised mostly of self-righteous ideologues with no concept of consequences.  We're starting to pay the price though and American values and ethics are being compromised every day by both sides. Our country is sliding down, unfortunately... but I won't be here to see the bottom thankfully. Some of you might though.
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Post by CBarca on Tue Dec 01, 2020 5:03 pm

I've become pessimistic about the future of the country. We require institutional change. Things like absolishing the electoral college. Abolishing gerrymandering, and more importantly, reforming our electoral system to something that looks more like mixed member proportional representation. This would affect the senate, although the senate itself must be looked at, as the malapportionment of the senate is also a problem.

This country has too many anti-majoritarian and straight up undemocratic institutions and systems to achieve some semblance of true representation of the people.

Otherwise, there needs to be a major ideological shift in the Republican party. Democrats are starting to move left because of the amount of cheating in the game of politics that Republicans play, and as both parties move more extreme, there must be a reckoning at some point.

It should be phrased this way: Democrats have become a largely pro-democracy party, while Republicans have become a largely anti-democracy party. The fact that this exists in the current United States shows that we have lost our way, and that our Democracy, while still robust in the global scale, is not what it once was.

I agree that centrism is what made us so excellent. Both parties came to the table in good faith for much of the countries history (excepting a rather disturbing attachment to slavery from mid 1800's Southern Democrats). However, that has gone, and now the government (both Democrats and Republicans) play politics and chicken with each other in some fucked up Prisoner's Dilemma instead of actually helping Americans.

I'm no fan of Democrats, but at least there is a commitment to some form of democracy from them at the moment. Republicans have made restricting suffrage a massive part of their platform, and they have become the party of McConnell and Gingrich -- they care about power, no matter the cost, and will destroy every norm to get it. I mean, jesus christ, the last month has been horrifying if you care about democratic norms. The only redeeming feature is that the judicial system, by and large, has managed to keep its legitimacy by batting down embarrassing (and by embarrassing, I mean embarrassing litigation attempts) from the Trump admin/state Republicans.
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Post by BarrileteCosmico on Tue Dec 01, 2020 5:17 pm

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2020/dec/01/neera-tanden-deletes-tweets-office-of-management-and-budget-nominee

Biden nominated a candidate for the budget office that is the staunchest anti-Bernie Democrat. Bernie leads the commission for budget so this is a huge FU to him.

Not sure why Biden would do this, when we additionally take into account that she has insulted nearly every republican senator.
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Post by CBarca on Tue Dec 01, 2020 6:25 pm

The progressive left and the right both don't like her lol

Weirdest pick ever. At least the article does mention that Warren supports her.

I don't know much about her though tbh, so I'm not gonna pass more judgement than what I've written here.
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Post by McLewis on Tue Dec 01, 2020 8:01 pm

@sportsczy wrote:I actually think the opposite.

Centrists are the reason the US became so great.  After every election, victors and vanquished would always get together and work to make the country better.  That stopped when centrists became the exception while extremists became the norm in US politics.  It's all about sabotaging the other side regardless of the cost to the country.

I hope against all hope that centrists, and America's wonderful culture of compromise, returns.  It won't though.  The last great generation (the WW2 generation) is long gone and only immigrants understand true hardship...  The US is comprised mostly of self-righteous ideologues with no concept of consequences.  We're starting to pay the price though and American values and ethics are being compromised every day by both sides. Our country is sliding down, unfortunately... but I won't be here to see the bottom thankfully. Some of you might though.


Republicans killed any notion of compromise in the late 80s and 90s and onward. Democrats are the only party still trying to do it.....and it's why they are weak.
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Post by McLewis on Tue Dec 01, 2020 8:05 pm

On Tanden: I think it's rich that Republicans complain about her shitting on Trump on Twitter when that moron has literally incited violence from the same platform. They no room at all on this one, but it won't stop them from bloviating about her anyway.

I am not much of a Bernie fan myself, but his fanbase is every bit as hostile as Trump supporters when it comes to anyone who dare criticize him. To this day, she still gets shit posts from Bernie bros.

That said, she faces a super tough confirmation. It becomes impossible without the GA seats.
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Post by Pedram on Tue Dec 01, 2020 8:56 pm

@BarrileteCosmico wrote:https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2020/dec/01/neera-tanden-deletes-tweets-office-of-management-and-budget-nominee

Biden nominated a candidate for the budget office that is the staunchest anti-Bernie Democrat. Bernie leads the commission for budget so this is a huge FU to him.

Not sure why Biden would do this, when we additionally take into account that she has insulted nearly every republican senator.


To be fair he was going to appoint Bruce Reed first, a deficit hawk, that would've been a bigger FU to progressives so Neera Tanden is actually an improvement. Laughing

Think she won't get confirmation though, she's simply too radioactive to both sides.
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Post by CBarca on Tue Dec 01, 2020 10:02 pm

@McLewis wrote:
@sportsczy wrote:I actually think the opposite.

Centrists are the reason the US became so great.  After every election, victors and vanquished would always get together and work to make the country better.  That stopped when centrists became the exception while extremists became the norm in US politics.  It's all about sabotaging the other side regardless of the cost to the country.

I hope against all hope that centrists, and America's wonderful culture of compromise, returns.  It won't though.  The last great generation (the WW2 generation) is long gone and only immigrants understand true hardship...  The US is comprised mostly of self-righteous ideologues with no concept of consequences.  We're starting to pay the price though and American values and ethics are being compromised every day by both sides. Our country is sliding down, unfortunately... but I won't be here to see the bottom thankfully. Some of you might though.


Republicans killed any notion of compromise in the late 80s and 90s and onward. Democrats are the only party still trying to do it.....and it's why they are weak.


Newt Gingrich may go down as an all time influential figure in US history. Not even US political history, where he is an all time influential figure. I'm talking about US history
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Post by McLewis on Tue Dec 01, 2020 11:29 pm

@CBarca wrote:
@McLewis wrote:
@sportsczy wrote:I actually think the opposite.

Centrists are the reason the US became so great.  After every election, victors and vanquished would always get together and work to make the country better.  That stopped when centrists became the exception while extremists became the norm in US politics.  It's all about sabotaging the other side regardless of the cost to the country.

I hope against all hope that centrists, and America's wonderful culture of compromise, returns.  It won't though.  The last great generation (the WW2 generation) is long gone and only immigrants understand true hardship...  The US is comprised mostly of self-righteous ideologues with no concept of consequences.  We're starting to pay the price though and American values and ethics are being compromised every day by both sides.  Our country is sliding down, unfortunately...  but I won't be here to see the bottom thankfully.  Some of you might though.


Republicans killed any notion of compromise in the late 80s and 90s and onward. Democrats are the only party still trying to do it.....and it's why they are weak.


Newt Gingrich may go down as an all time influential figure in US history. Not even US political history, where he is an all time influential figure. I'm talking about US history


Agreed unfortunately. 100 years from now, dude will be seen as a statesmen on the level of Calhoun, who was just as bad in his day ffs. It's infuriating.
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Post by FennecFox7 on Wed Dec 02, 2020 1:04 am

Gingrich is a snake. Fuck that guy. Huge reason we are in this mess right now
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Post by sportsczy on Sat Dec 05, 2020 12:58 am

I disagree again.  Democrats aren't trying to compromise at all.  They put makeup on it... meaning they say that they would compromise if the other side would give up something the dems know full well are non-starters.

That's the textbook example of bad faith negotiations.

The good news is that McConnell and Biden provided the last true example of compromise:  The Tax Bill of 2010.  Here an article explaining how these two were able to find a middle ground.

https://www.nytimes.com/2010/12/08/us/politics/08deal.html

They also came together again in 2012 to negotiate a compromise before the so-called "fiscal cliff" at the time.

I want gridlock. I don't trust either side at all with absolute power. So I hope the GOP takes the Senate and McConnell and Biden are forced to work together again.... which they've shown that they can.
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Post by CBarca on Sat Dec 05, 2020 1:08 pm

Compromise is increasingly difficult when the Republican party has become increasingly farther right. This is pretty well studied at this point.

And hell you don't need political science to see it. Republicans went from business loving, immigration loving to nativist with restricting the suffrage of American voters as their #1 policy goal.

A compromise on anything right now would just be the former republican position like 10 years ago. There is a reason compromise ain't happening. I can come back later with pictures
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Post by futbol_bill on Sat Dec 05, 2020 3:29 pm

Trump’s electoral challenges are killing any republican chance for the two senators in Georgia. The end result is going to be 50 Democrats and 50 Republican senators with Harris being the deciding vote. That means Democrats will control both house and senate, but given  the closeness there is need for compromise. Some republicans will go along with it once Trump is out of picture.

The best thing that Biden, media, Democrats and Republicans can do is ignore Trump, don’t give him any opportunities, plus hoping Twitter shuts him done for multiple violations of their policies.
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Post by FennecFox7 on Sat Dec 05, 2020 5:00 pm

Sorry, I still don’t think it’s a Democrat vs Republican problem. It’s a “who is honest about their ideals vs who is a corrupt puppet for the rich” problem for me. I want progressives, conservatives; libertarians, centrists, as long as they are not authoritarian and establishment.

For example, I love Bernie, but dislike Obama and was wary with Clinton. George HW bush was excellent and his son and trump are the worst presidents in history. Our best president in history in my book is Eisenhower, LBJ, Lincoln, and FDR were also great
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Post by McLewis on Sat Dec 05, 2020 11:52 pm

If we're measuring corporate puppet strings, both parties lose on that score because they are both wholly owned by corporate interests.

As for best president....I think that's as subjective title. Too difficult to measure. Now worst president....far easier.
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Post by FennecFox7 on Sun Dec 06, 2020 5:12 pm

This is why we need to be informed as voters and throw out the puppets who are owned by corporate interests. For a start I hope progressives push for ending free trade and finding a way to handle lobbyists. Putting the safe guards back on Wall Street. People bag on them because of their economic policies and smug attitude but quite frankly if I overlook those two things there are very good ideas that can help Americans a LOT.

Personally to win voters, they need to talk less about issues that really hurt Americans and stop with the social issues and movements like BLM, defund the police, white people are bad, LGBT, sexism, etc, because

1. These issues can be fixed when the real issues that actually effect Americans are fixed. So you kill two birds with one stone instead of focusing on one bird.
2. These problems I listed in the first paragraph are harder for republicans and faux liberals/establishment politicians to manipulate as not being bad in my opinion. More Americans will resonate with these issues and it will be very hard for establishment politicians to spin it as “socialist bad”. It’s hard to say that when all you’re conveying is the truth, that the elite and the rich are plundering the country, and quite frankly a lot of Americans only distrust the government at this point.
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Post by sportsczy on Sun Dec 06, 2020 5:26 pm

Progressive agenda is 95% utter nonsense in terms of having no basis in reality and zero chance of actually working.

That's my informed opinion.

I just saw this wonderful legislation that "the squad" is proposing that shows they have literally no idea what they're talking about: https://www.wired.com/story/member-squad-takes-cryptocurrency/
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Post by McLewis on Sun Dec 06, 2020 5:57 pm

How do we know none of it will work if none of it is ever tried? It is always supposition, fear-mongering and nay-saying from conservatives when it comes to progressive ideas. Yet the fact remains that when they've been attempted, as with the New Deal, they have transformed this country for the better. FDR's agenda had it's nay-sayers too and now none of them are remembered because of how wrong they were.

We need to stop seeing the progressive agenda as the second coming of Stalinist Russia, Maoist China, Castro's Cuba or Venezuela. None of that is accurate.
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Post by futbol_bill on Sun Dec 06, 2020 7:06 pm

I wonder how many of the 80 Million that voted for Biden are progressives?
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