2020/21 Premier League Discussion

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Post by Casciavit Tue 08 Dec 2020, 13:39

@sportsczy wrote:Mourinho is perfect for teams like Atleti, Spurs, etc.  They're not elite and never will be.  So you won't get elite tier attacking/creative talent.  But you will get some top tier talent...  or fringe ones...  that won't mind playing catenaccio + counter.

Once Ndombele leaves.... which he likely will fairly soon... then the team is perfect for Mourinho.  You have a snipper 9 (Kane), a fast and hard working 9.5 (song) and a bunch of water carriers.


Spurs is a really good fit for him. He can play his football without the media being on his back for not playing attacking football with a big team (he'll still get shit for it though). Underdog teams with high-level forwards who can lead the counter are his bread and butter.

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Post by Arquitecto Tue 08 Dec 2020, 15:09

My point is not to downplay what Spurs are doing as deservedly they are atop the league (albeit by a margin) as just certain fortunate circumstances within games have led them to get more points than you would expect them to.


I quite prefer Mourinho proving many wrong and Spurs are not anywhere near irritable as before but this is not a team tactically presentable the way Jose's teams used to be just very cynical and while it may suit certain conditions, it doesn't last.

What is going for them is that Mourinho has found a way to use Kane better than any coach has, gives Son more freedom as he deservedly has and has turned Høbjerg into a spectacle not just based on "form" but his actual ability.


Spurs did not look good against Arsenal but by no means did they look confused as things do seem to be coming together for them in that sense particularly in their defence to midfield transition and the discipline from the midfield to protect their defence.

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Post by BarrileteCosmico Tue 08 Dec 2020, 15:53

@Casciavit wrote:@replies

When I wrote sustainable, I wasn't really thinking about this season specifically, but rather the long-term. I'll speak about both situations though.

I haven't seen enough of Spurs this season to determine whether they will actually be title contenders. Yes, they've done great against the PL top 6, but if they are playing like shit and are winning through freak goals, then I don't think it'll be sustainable until the end of the season. If they've actually been playing well, and have had luck, then fair play to them (you need both). They have a good team and even though I think Liverpool will still win, Spurs have a chance if Liverpool continues to get screwed with injuries.

As for shithousing results being a long-term sustainable approach, well scoring twice from three shots will never be a sustainable strategy in the long-term. I genuinely think that's one of the main reasons Mourinho's teams struggle so much after their second season. I'm looking at some data and there seems to be some evidence to my theory. I'll go more in-depth with it later.

Also, is shithousing results a winning strategy? Yeah, I don't disagree. My question is though how many of those teams actually sustain that success? Most of them don't. Eventually, their lack of quality catches up with them. They always outperform their expected stats by so much that when they revert back to their mean the following season their style of play actually matches their results.

Mourinho's Chelsea
Ranieri's Leicster
Conte's Chelsea
Mourinho's United in his second versus third season

The list goes on. They'll have that one season where they are insanely clinical and everything goes their way, but the season after they crash and burn because that kind of efficiency isn't sustainable. This really shouldn't be an argument.
Man, it's Spurs. Their goal is to win their first title in the "PL Era", not to create a team that will dominate English football for the next 4 years. Will this team suffer, as all other Mou teams did, from 2nd season syndrome? Sure. But also, if you're a Spurs fan, would you care?
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Post by RealGunner Sat 12 Dec 2020, 17:43

Man Utd: De Gea; Wan-Bissaka, Lindelof, Maguire, Shaw, Fred, McTominay, Pogba, Fernandes, Rashford, Greenwood.

Man City: Ederson, Walker, Dias, Stones, Cancelo, Rodrigo, Fernandinho, De Bruyne, Mahrez, Sterling, Jesus.
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Post by Kaladin Sat 12 Dec 2020, 19:27

2020/21 Premier League Discussion - Page 17 Derby10

Derby della Midtable
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Post by FennecFox7 Sat 12 Dec 2020, 20:05

Poor argument from Cas. Every team crashes and burns. City are a mid table club this season. Yet not a peep from you about that. Your bias is showing
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Post by sportsczy Sat 12 Dec 2020, 20:32

Most all of the elite teams look flat to start this season.
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Post by Casciavit Sat 12 Dec 2020, 23:36

@FennecFox7 wrote:Poor argument from Cas. Every team crashes and burns. City are a mid table club this season. Yet not a peep from you about that. Your bias is showing


Sep 18:

@Casciavit wrote:I'm surprised by how many think City is going to win the title again. I genuinely expect their worst season since Pep arrived. They've made no improvements to their starting 11 since 2018, despite countless transfers. Pep's going to be entering his 5th season as their manager, and most modern managers don't stay that long. He's added rotational depth options but has failed to address the key problem areas. The fact that they still haven't signed a CB to replace Kompany is insane. If City starts off poorly, put your money on a mid-season implosion.


This was back in September before the season started and there's more posts where that came from. I was the first person on this forum to call City's struggles. Though they are doing better than I thought to some degree. Their attack is slow and flat but Dias has transformed their defense.

And no every team in recent memory who shithouses their way to a league title crashes and burns the FOLLOWING season. Di Matteo, Conte, Mourinho, and Ranieri have all shown that. Simeone is the one coach who's team didn't go to shit the very next season.

How many times are you going to quote me and take an L? You're coming after the person who called the struggles to begin with. Unreal.
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Post by danyjr Sun 13 Dec 2020, 00:44

5 points from the top with 27 matches to go.
Best CL record in history of the club (6 wins out of 6, 13 goals scored, 1 conceded).

Y'all need to sit down. Pep's got dis.
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Post by Casciavit Sun 13 Dec 2020, 01:15

They are doing well defensively, but their attack is shit. Jesus can't finish, Ferran is slow and lacks confidence, Mahrez is slow and inefficient, Sterling can't score a 1v1 if his life depended on it, and Aguero has been injured for 6 months and might not be the same player because of his meniscus injury. They need physicality and dynamism in their frontline. It's slow and flat, and it's filled with forwards who need 10 chances to score one goal. Unless Sterling develops a Jordan mentality, ain't no way they are winning the CL. Laughing

Liverpool was my initial prediction before Van Dijk's injury, but I think even with his injury they'll still win the title. Spurs, City, and Chelsea will round out the remaining CL places IMO.
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Post by CBarca Sun 13 Dec 2020, 03:57

I think they do need a bit more dynamism but I think the issue is

1) Jesus ain't aguero
And
2) honest to God, how many creative players have they got beyond De Bruyne? Bernardo...kinda, and Mahrez...sometimes?

They move it too slowly from side to side, but more importantly, they just lack the kind of creativity they used to have (usually from having all three of De Bruyne, Silva, and Aguero in the side at one time).
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Post by El Gunner Sun 13 Dec 2020, 11:31

they've gone stale, Pep and City need to part ways
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Post by Thimmy Sun 13 Dec 2020, 11:53

I don’t think they’ve gone stale, but it’s very evident that they no longer have the added sense of control over matches, with David Silva having left and Aguero getting surgery. The poor results have probably taken a hit to morale, as well.

City have depth, but taking away Silva and Aguero is probably about as substantial as to take away Son and Kane from Tottenham. You can’t just replace players of their level.
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Post by FennecFox7 Sun 13 Dec 2020, 11:55

@Casciavit wrote:
@FennecFox7 wrote:Poor argument from Cas. Every team crashes and burns. City are a mid table club this season. Yet not a peep from you about that. Your bias is showing


Sep 18:

@Casciavit wrote:I'm surprised by how many think City is going to win the title again. I genuinely expect their worst season since Pep arrived. They've made no improvements to their starting 11 since 2018, despite countless transfers. Pep's going to be entering his 5th season as their manager, and most modern managers don't stay that long. He's added rotational depth options but has failed to address the key problem areas. The fact that they still haven't signed a CB to replace Kompany is insane. If City starts off poorly, put your money on a mid-season implosion.


This was back in September before the season started and there's more posts where that came from. I was the first person on this forum to call City's struggles. Though they are doing better than I thought to some degree. Their attack is slow and flat but Dias has transformed their defense.

And no every team in recent memory who shithouses their way to a league title crashes and burns the FOLLOWING season. Di Matteo, Conte, Mourinho, and Ranieri have all shown that. Simeone is the one coach who's team didn't go to shit the very next season.

How many times are you going to quote me and take an L? You're coming after the person who called the struggles to begin with. Unreal.


Every team goes through cycles, this "Crash and burn" you talk about is fucking stupid. NO TEAM stays on top. Real Madrid shithoused their way to 4 CLs as of recent. Defense wins championships. You singling out Mourinho shows your bias.

Pep has spent hundreds of millions. You're taking the blame off of him and saying "he hasn't spent enough". No, you were defending pep, not giving him criticism. Why are you lying? You've never given me an L. Another lie out of your mouth. Shame on the two posters who upvoted you.

Walker and the midfield offer zero penetration or forward passing, how can you blame this on Mahrez and Sterling? You're asking the wingers to create something while having zero width from the fullbacks and an ineffective double pivot that doesn't create anything, AND being double teamed. This is on pep 100%, he overthinks everything for no reason.

Sure, they need a striker, but the problem isn't the wingers, its pep not sticking with Mendy and Cancelo and using Walker who is extremely limited. And without Foden their midfield has zero progression with a double pivot. But since I'm critiquing pep here you'd obviously disagree.
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Post by S Sun 13 Dec 2020, 12:30

@danyjr wrote:5 points from the top with 27 matches to go.
Best CL record in history of the club (6 wins out of 6, 13 goals scored, 1 conceded).

Y'all need to sit down. Pep's got dis.


There are better teams in the Championship than in City's CL group. Sarri's Juve got 16 points from last year's group that had Atletico Madrid in it just to give you some perspective.

Maybe a bit disrespectful to Porto but point stands. It's an EL level group and City can only truly be judged once they play a competitive team in the knockouts.

As far as league goes, they are very much in contention though.
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Post by Casciavit Sun 13 Dec 2020, 14:06

@FennecFox7 wrote:
@Casciavit wrote:
@FennecFox7 wrote:Poor argument from Cas. Every team crashes and burns. City are a mid table club this season. Yet not a peep from you about that. Your bias is showing


Sep 18:

@Casciavit wrote:I'm surprised by how many think City is going to win the title again. I genuinely expect their worst season since Pep arrived. They've made no improvements to their starting 11 since 2018, despite countless transfers. Pep's going to be entering his 5th season as their manager, and most modern managers don't stay that long. He's added rotational depth options but has failed to address the key problem areas. The fact that they still haven't signed a CB to replace Kompany is insane. If City starts off poorly, put your money on a mid-season implosion.


This was back in September before the season started and there's more posts where that came from. I was the first person on this forum to call City's struggles. Though they are doing better than I thought to some degree. Their attack is slow and flat but Dias has transformed their defense.

And no every team in recent memory who shithouses their way to a league title crashes and burns the FOLLOWING season. Di Matteo, Conte, Mourinho, and Ranieri have all shown that. Simeone is the one coach who's team didn't go to shit the very next season.

How many times are you going to quote me and take an L? You're coming after the person who called the struggles to begin with. Unreal.


Every team goes through cycles, this "Crash and burn" you talk about is fucking stupid. NO TEAM stays on top. Real Madrid shithoused their way to 4 CLs as of recent. Defense wins championships. You singling out Mourinho shows your bias.

Pep has spent hundreds of millions. You're taking the blame off of him and saying "he hasn't spent enough". No, you were defending pep, not giving him criticism. Why are you lying? You've never given me an L. Another lie out of your mouth. Shame on the two posters who upvoted you.

Walker and the midfield offer zero penetration or forward passing, how can you blame this on Mahrez and Sterling? You're asking the wingers to create something while having zero width from the fullbacks and an ineffective double pivot that doesn't create anything, AND being double teamed. This is on pep 100%, he overthinks everything for no reason.

Sure, they need a striker, but the problem isn't the wingers, its pep not sticking with Mendy and Cancelo and using Walker who is extremely limited. And without Foden their midfield has zero progression with a double pivot. But since I'm critiquing pep here you'd obviously disagree.


What the fuck is this shitass reading comprehension?

THE FOLLOWING SEASON

Do you know what that means?

That means the very NEXT season. Tell me why those teams all go to shit the next season after they win? It's because they punch way above their weight overperforming all their stats and then reality comes crashing down. I used Mourinho because I looked at the stats of his last three teams and in their second season they overperformed a lot relative to their actual performances then reality came crashing down in his third season.

Every team has phases of doing well and then declining, but those guys have big drop-offs almost immediately. Nobody is saying sustainable success is 10 years. That's impossible. The average shelf life for a top coach these days is four or so years. Is there not a difference between doing well for one season versus three to four?

How am I avoiding giving him the blame when in the very SAME post I say:

"They've made no improvements to their starting 11 since 2018, despite countless transfers."

"He's added rotational depth options but has failed to address the key problem areas."

Who am I blaming and referring to when I'm saying that? Casper the ghost?

The problem is a lot of people on this forum seem to choose to read what they want rather than actually reading what's being written and you're doing that right now. I'm a fan of watching Pep and his teams but this notion that I don't criticize him is mind-boggling when I have. Have I given him more praise than criticism? Yeah, BECAUSE he's won 30 trophies as a coach and his tactics have played a large part in evolving today's game. I don't care what idiotic people on this forum who call him a fraud think. All the intelligent people in the footballing world believe he's one of the greatest coaches of all time and his legacy was solidified a long time ago.

Yes, I have served you L's in particular with your buddy Mahrez, and I'm doing so right now. Why do you get annoyed by upvotes? Who cares?

And, yes the attack is a problem. The backline is meh, but they've done well because they are more protected now. Pep can have prime Alves and Marcelo as his fullbacks but it won't change the fact that Mahrez has some of the worst decision making I've ever seen from a top player, Sterling turns into a clown when he has time to think about where to place his shot, and Gabriel Jesus misses 25 clear chances a season.

Their forwards are a problem. At least before they had Sane and Sterling playing on the outside so their game was simplified and they had one of the greatest PL CF's in Aguero. Sterling's playing LW meaning he has more responsibility and Aguero's been stuck with injuries.

Also, you bring up these tactical issues but you don't ask yourself why they exist. This is the same coach who preaches playing 4-3-3, constant width, creative midfielders, and wants five players to attack the box, yet he's not doing any of that right now.

It's because the current team is not built to play his way and that's his fault and the recruitment team's fault. You seem to forget City lost 9 times in the league last season and it almost always involved him trying to force his classic 4-3-3.

So, let me ask you this:

Why do you think Pep is playing a double pivot and Cancelo as a LB? He HATES having two players playing in the same channel and that's what Cancelo and Sterling have been doing, but then again his options are limited. Mendy's almost always injured and Zinchenko can't hold width either. He can't play his 10s high up the pitch because he doesn't have wingers who can provide width because his only wingers are inside forwards now. Foden and Bernardo also don't have patience on the ball the way Silva did so they are more prone to losing it making City more susceptible to counterattacks. They don't have Silva's link-up or final pass, but it's okay maybe they can develop that over time because they are both still young.

Also when your attackers can't finish for shit why would you play expansive football with two 10's as CM's? The fact is City needs those extra players behind the ball because it makes no sense to have extra players ahead of the ball when you can't rely on your forwards to finish their opportunities.

At least now when they can't finish and get hit on the counter they have 6 players defending against counterattacks instead of 4. It's negative, but doesn't this forum blame Pep for not being flexible? His 4-3-3 isn't effective because he doesn't have the profiles for it anymore. He's moved to a 4-2-3-1 and now he plays a Gundogan/Ferna and Rodri double pivot.

The reason I disagree with you here is because your critique is misplaced. You don't ask yourself why coaches are resorting to certain actions. The real critique should be aimed at his squad building and if he kept trying to force his 4-3-3, not him actually adapting and playing a more defensive team given the current circumstances. He isn't doing it because he OvErThInKs like it's some CL away match, it's because his team lost NINE games last season and they haven't looked convincing in more than a year. This is his way of finding a temporary solution. Will it work out this season? I don't think City will win the PL. He's been with them a long time so coaching fatigue is playing a part, and the squad has too many holes within it. City is a good team, but they aren't balanced at all IMO.
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Post by Casciavit Sun 13 Dec 2020, 14:31

@CBarca wrote:I think they do need a bit more dynamism but I think the issue is

1) Jesus ain't aguero
And
2) honest to God, how many creative players have they got beyond De Bruyne? Bernardo...kinda, and Mahrez...sometimes?

They move it too slowly from side to side, but more importantly, they just lack the kind of creativity they used to have (usually from having all three of De Bruyne, Silva, and Aguero in the side at one time).


Silva is a big miss. He really had such a unique profile. His exit and decline made me realize how much is actually involved in making a #10 successfully transition to a CM.
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Post by RealGunner Sun 13 Dec 2020, 15:08

Southampton are 3rd man.

Hasenhüttl is the real deal
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Post by iftikhar Sun 13 Dec 2020, 15:39

Is that Pickford playing for Palace hmm
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Post by CBarca Sun 13 Dec 2020, 17:42

This is why spurs won't win the league unless Mou changes things up.

Team went 1-0 up on Palace through a hit and hope from Kane and then sat back and let Palace have the initiative. The team plays so scared all the time. Fuckin dominate crystal palace. It's not hard.

Park the bus and counter against big teams, sure, Mou has proven his teams have that down. But Spurs have had trouble just barely winning (or drawing) against Newcastle, Brighton, West Ham, Burnley, and crystal palace now. You just can't get through a whole season garnering more points than Liverpool or City or Chelsea by just barely beating the fodder of the EPL
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Post by Nishankly Sun 13 Dec 2020, 19:26

Barely managed a point against Fulham. The squad is on strings.
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Post by Hapless_Hans Sun 13 Dec 2020, 19:54

Team news

Arsenal (3-4-3) Leno; Holding, Gabriel, Tierney; Bellerin, Elneny, Xhaka, Saka; Willian, Lacazette, Aubameyang.
Substitutes: Runarsson, Mustafi, Ceballos, Maitland-Niles, Willock, Smith Rowe, Nketiah.

Burnley (4-2-3-1) Pope; Lowton, Tarkowski, Mee, Taylor; Brownhill, Westwood; Brady, Rodriguez, McNeil; Wood.
Substitutes: Peacock-Farrell, Pieters, Long, Dunne, Benson, Barnes, Vydra.

Referee Graham Scott.
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Post by Helmer Sun 13 Dec 2020, 20:28

@Nishankly wrote:Barely managed a point against Fulham. The squad is on strings.
This season will be interesting till the end.

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Post by danyjr Sun 13 Dec 2020, 20:52

@Hapless_Hans wrote:Team news

Arsenal (3-4-3) Leno; Holding, Gabriel, Tierney; Bellerin, Elneny, Xhaka, Saka; Willian, Lacazette, Aubameyang.
Substitutes: Runarsson, Mustafi, Ceballos, Maitland-Niles, Willock, Smith Rowe, Nketiah.

Burnley (4-2-3-1) Pope; Lowton, Tarkowski, Mee, Taylor; Brownhill, Westwood; Brady, Rodriguez, McNeil; Wood.
Substitutes: Peacock-Farrell, Pieters, Long, Dunne, Benson, Barnes, Vydra.

Referee Graham Scott.
Easy game for Arsenal at home in front of their fans in Emirates. Burnley are 18th and on an awful form.

FARTETA IN
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Post by RealGunner Sun 13 Dec 2020, 21:03

We are so bad
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Post by M99 Sun 13 Dec 2020, 21:45

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