Andrea Pirlo - Fatih Kamagümrük SK manager - "sono un allenatore vincente"

Warrior wrote:I totally disagree that Allegri is the worst guy for the job, he's the easiest path to victory. His strategies are never complicated and he can actually manage in-game as his substitutions alone won us many games before. I don't want another theorist that comes here and screws us with his "ideas" and "system of play" that no player will buy.

Maybe you're in denial. The cycle of this team is over and that's because, after the 2015 final, the club became obsessed with winning the CL and forgot about the future. The team was filled up with a ton of experienced veterans (Cuadrado, Manduzkic, Khedira, Pjanic, Matuidi, Costa, Hernanes, Dani Alves, Benatia, Higuain, DeSciglio, Howedes) that are now old, or have moved on, or sucked, but that haven't been properly replaced because, during the same period, there were brought in only like 5 players that were u23: Dybala, Berna, Pjaca, Rugani and Bentancur, with the latter one just because Boca didn't have money to pay for Tevez. On top of that, some of them have regressed to the point of being lost causes.

This team needs rebuilding, which has already started last summer, and Allegri hasn't shown anything to suggest that he can do that kind of job. In fact, he has under his belt a lot more player regressions than developments.

You remember only his two last years. The squad is disastrous, we need a coach to compete as soon as next year and rebuild on the fly. Allegri is my best choice since idk who else (of quality) available. Give me a name and i listen

We forgot about the future the moment we signed Ronaldo not in 2016-2018 as we try to finish what we started with that squad. But that's another story although i want to point out: since then 3 coach hired and our squad never bought anybody's vision. I don't invent this.

What matters is to win games as they come. With the current squad Allegri 1000% would have done better than Pirlo and i'd go as far as to say we would be champions just to trigger you. Sarri and Ventura would have done better than Pirlo. The summer rebuilding shall not be one of development just better transfers the goal is to be competitive next year. Unless the management fell deeper into delusion they will admit this team is shite. Ideally we are open to sell anyone and we sign finished products according to who the new coach wants.

adun101 wrote:

Luca wrote:

Allegri’s Juventus started slow many times but became a machine in the second half of the season

Sarri was never really suited to Juventus but he regressed only when Juventus already sealed the scudetto and had an incredibly hectic covid-schedule

Pirlo had some good ideas on the field and inconsistent results are natural given his experience and many new signings but the team just never played two good matches in a row. Obviously everyone wanted Pirlo to succeed, it’s a name you can’t be against but it hasn’t gone that way. What I did like is that players like Cuadrado and Chiesa truly have been incredible. They have freedom on the field and they produce most of the team’s offence

I’m a big Allegri fan but I was happy when he left because his cycle had clearly ended but given the last two seasons and managers, I would welcome him back but only if the squad is heavily changed. It’s just the right time now that the scudetto run has ended

You're remembering wrong.

Allegri's Juve started very well in the last season, but they regressed after the second game against United. Every game after was looking more and more like the one from yesterday. The previous year didn't end that well either, we almost lost the title to Napoli, after drawing to Crotone, losing to Napoli and almost losing to a 10 men Inter. And we were shit in three of the four CL knock out games

Sarri's Juve played a different kind of football until the first Inter. They realized they didn't have an opponent that year either, so they went back to Allegri's horizontal shit and defending the one goal advantage. As for him not being suited to Juve, that's just bullshit. If the players don't like him, then you tell them to go fuck themselves. The players didn't like Sacchi either, but the difference was that Berlusconi told them that it's Sacchi's way or the highway.

Pirlo had good stretches. The one from Cagliari to Fiorentina in the fall. We outplayed even Atalanta, especially until Arthur was on the field. We didn't win that game because of the ref and because Ronaldo and Morata sucked. We also played well during that January - February. That one was probably what killed us mentally. Chasing 9 points with a bunch of tough games close together was too much.

I can agree with Allegri’s last season being the rightful end for him, at the time, the complacency was showing and the result against Ajax sealed it, clearly. But I can’t agree that he can’t manage squad turnover, he took Conte’s Juve immediately to the champions league final but then managed the transition from Tevez, Pirlo, Vidal and Pogba to Dybala, Pjanic and Khedira and made another final just two seasons later. He did maintain a defence of Chiellini, Bonucci and Barzagli but still. I believe in Allegri’s ability to get results and would welcome him back. One confusing aspect of his return is Dybala. Rumours are that he wants Dybala central to any project, but in Allegri’s last season, him and Dybala had an up and down relationship and Dybala was even benched for key matches (like against Inter), it was one of the reasons I was happy for Allegri to leave at the time.

Sarri did a couple of good things. Namely, he got the best out of Dybala and of Dybala and Ronaldo together in a way that neither Pirlo nor Allegri could. Sarri also had Bentancur playing great, easily the best midfielder under Sarri. But it just never felt like the right fit and an abysmal last 7-8 games when the season resumed, and the horrible show against Lyon, sealed it rightly.

Everyone wanted Pirlo to succeed and he was definitely given more leniency. To be honest, I don’t mind losing the scudetto but struggling for the top four is abysmal. Losing to Porto in that fashion, terrible. Surely the players have a lot of blame too but there’s definitely enough quality for better results than we’ve seen and it’s easier to replace one manager than multiple players, even if, in this case, both are required. There’s just not enough to redeem Pirlo here, not for me anyways. I think the damage is done and the silver lining is maybe he’ll spark some sort of revolution because the team lacks a lot of harmony and there’s a lot of dead weight

Burn and delete this thread before I go full ham on this clown

0-3 ?

in the top 4 final?

S wrote:Burn and delete this thread before I go full ham on this clown

What an end of an era. Ridiculous that we will miss CL (barring massive twists in the last 3 matches) after such a successful era.

A lot of the squad needs to be reshaped and now there is less money to do it. Covid + no CL = being broke. Ronaldo shouldn't be affordable any more. Dybala's renewal is on the balance. There are a lot of sales to make in the mean time.

Players that need to be sold ASAP:
Ramsey
Rabiot
Morata shouldn't be renewed
Ronaldo, GOAT but we can't afford him anymore

Players that ideally would be replaced but we probably can't all at once:
Alex Sandro
Szczesny
Bernardeschi
Bentancur
McKennie

Then there are the old loaned players that mostly should leave:
Pjaca
Perin
Rugani
De Sciglio
Costa
+ whoever I forget

We ideally need 2 midfielders, 2 strikers, a left back, and a goalkeeper. The mids and the strikers are the priority.

Then there is the issue of the coach. Pirlo's job was very difficult so losing the scudetto is normal but his tenure has been disastrous. Allegri, Inzaghi, Gasperini, etc. any of the rumored options would be a much safer bet. Then there is the question of Agnelli and Paratici who are also at risk.

time for a Jjuventus summer special thread

the problem with selling Ramsey and Rabiot, of course, will be that I assume, having been signed on free transfers, they will be on rather high wages that not many clubs will want to afford

Yeah that's the reason for them being first on the selling list. Rabiot is not worse than Bentancur, but Rabiot and Ramsey are on high wages and don't add enough to justify their price.

It will be a difficult market, we need to sell, most clubs are broke, and these are high wage players.

Pirlo will stay he has received support from agnelli (Di Marzio)




Welcome to JJ banter era

but yes, for these 3 matchdays. Sack does not make sense now , for who , Tudor ?
Of course he's not being coach next year, 100% he's leaving, probably for Allegri return

Robespierre wrote:but yes, for these 3 matchdays. Sack does not make sense now , for who , Tudor ?
Of course he's not being coach next year, 100% he's leaving, probably for Allegri return

There are reports from Sky Italia that says he can stay on for one more season.

Without CL, without enough funds to reinforce the squad, I doubt Allegri is coming here. I read he was approached by Real Madrid.

The same was said of Sarri, nothing to worry about. He will surely be fired even if by some of the craziest luck, the club qualified for the CL

The team is in shambles from top to bottom, missing the CL may be the reset needed but I obviously want Juve to make it, not that it matters now

iam surprised that much is said about pirlo yes he is the coach ultimately but nothing much on paratichi ... or nedved whoever had decision making on bringing pirlo or players juve fans believe are not of their quality

S wrote:

Robespierre wrote:but yes, for these 3 matchdays. Sack does not make sense now , for who , Tudor ?
Of course he's not being coach next year, 100% he's leaving, probably for Allegri return

There are reports from Sky Italia that says he can stay on for one more season.

Without CL, without enough funds to reinforce the squad, I doubt Allegri is coming here. I read he was approached by Real Madrid.

No, I don't think this.
Honestly the European consideration about Allegri is overrated.
No european clubs looked for him in these two years.
Alternative to Juve for him is staying at home for the 3th year in a row , and that's humilation for a coach with his palmares.
He need of Juve as much as Juve need of him.
Essentially I don't think he can aspire to a better club than Juve even though it might mean EL.
A marriage almost obliged. Then we 'll have to think it sounds as a failure for both sides.
Juve sacked Allegri for following a different road, convinced that Juve need of another type of coach for getting CL consacration. Now they come back on Allegri.
Allegri should have got prestigious clubs based on his palmares but noone cared about him now. And he comes back at Juve.

That should be coming and it’s been said that a revolution is looming, especially after the super league fiasco but now it’s clear as day, the team and the players are absolutely horrible and Pirlo isn’t a good enough manager to compensate for those facts

Pirlo is new Ferrara with just a better team

Robespierre wrote:Pirlo is new Ferrara with just a better team

Insulting to Ferrara but exactly this

JespSwe wrote:iam surprised that much is said about pirlo yes he is the coach ultimately but nothing much on paratichi ... or nedved whoever had decision making on bringing pirlo or players juve fans believe are not of their quality

There is a lot of discussion about the management. Agnelli was the one that chose Pirlo, and Agnelli was the clown that did this super league thing so poorly. About time he resigns.

rincon wrote:

JespSwe wrote:iam surprised that much is said about pirlo yes he is the coach ultimately but nothing much on paratichi ... or nedved whoever had decision making on bringing pirlo or players juve fans believe are not of their quality

There is a lot of discussion about the management. Agnelli was the one that chose Pirlo, and Agnelli was the clown that did this super league thing so poorly. About time he resigns.

then i guess Andrea Agnelli would be untouchable lol. wonder how much Jon Elkann has say but i guess they wouldnt fight each other right?
also paratichi though he is sporting director he brings players he is also responsible for sure

Pirlo is just the wrong guy for the job he ain't responsible for the terrible transfers we made since 3 years. Paratici built this squad, he is gone this summer you can bet your shoes on it. Agnelli is also responsible for the club's negative spiral by approving Pirlo as a coach among other things. Those 2 seem to be the main culprits.

In theory Elkann could fire Agnelli but it won't go this far, a resignation is the likely outcome

Luca wrote:
I can agree with Allegri’s last season being the rightful end for him, at the time, the complacency was showing and the result against Ajax sealed it, clearly. But I can’t agree that he can’t manage squad turnover, he took Conte’s Juve immediately to the champions league final but then managed the transition from Tevez, Pirlo, Vidal and Pogba to Dybala, Pjanic and Khedira and made another final just two seasons later. He did maintain a defence of Chiellini, Bonucci and Barzagli but still. I believe in Allegri’s ability to get results and would welcome him back. One confusing aspect of his return is Dybala. Rumours are that he wants Dybala central to any project, but in Allegri’s last season, him and Dybala had an up and down relationship and Dybala was even benched for key matches (like against Inter), it was one of the reasons I was happy for Allegri to leave at the time.

Sarri did a couple of good things. Namely, he got the best out of Dybala and of Dybala and Ronaldo together in a way that neither Pirlo nor Allegri could. Sarri also had Bentancur playing great, easily the best midfielder under Sarri. But it just never felt like the right fit and an abysmal last 7-8 games when the season resumed, and the horrible show against Lyon, sealed it rightly.

Everyone wanted Pirlo to succeed and he was definitely given more leniency. To be honest, I don’t mind losing the scudetto but struggling for the top four is abysmal. Losing to Porto in that fashion, terrible. Surely the players have a lot of blame too but there’s definitely enough quality for better results than we’ve seen and it’s easier to replace one manager than multiple players, even if, in this case, both are required. There’s just not enough to redeem Pirlo here, not for me anyways. I think the damage is done and the silver lining is maybe he’ll spark some sort of revolution because the team lacks a lot of harmony and there’s a lot of dead weight

OMFG, just stop talking about individual matches and players and seasons, the real picture is much bigger than that. This team didn't get here because Pirlo blows, it simply reached the end of its cycle. An end that actually started after the 2017 final, but we didn't see it because the rest of Serie A was trash. And it happened because, after 2015, they stopped building and only chased the CL. The transfer strategy is the proof of this. We got the squad filled with experienced veterans, because that's the only way you can win when you don't have an identity, and when those players got old, you ended up with nothing.

Coaching is not just picking up a collection of random players and giving them some basic instructions, like Allegri does. You have to have a system that you believe in, to know how to teach it to players. It takes time and patience and support from the management, both in the locker room and thorugh squad building. Sarri didn't get either, he coached Allegri's team, was asked to win and his authority was undermined by Agnelli from the first press conference. Pirlo didn't have a team built for him either. He had the public support from Agnelli, but unfortunately not during the delicate moments of the season, after the Porto and Benevento matches, and as a result the team just went into a down spiral.

It's not the coach, it's the upper management. Agnelli fucked everything up after Cardiff. He kept his buddy in place for two more years, even if he didn't have anything more to give to the team. He fired Marotta, bu he didn't replace him properly, so Paratici had to do two jobs. He chased Guardiola for a month after firing Allegri. He rejected Conte because he didn't like him on a personal level. He accepted Sarri, but he gave him zero support because he didn't like him either, and then he fired him and hired someone with zero minutes of coaching experience during the shortest offseason in football history. And he went missing during the critical moments of the season, because he was busy with the superleague or because he wanted to go to Ferrari. I miss the guy who told Del Piero to go fuck himself

rincon wrote:Yeah that's the reason for them being first on the selling list. Rabiot is not worse than Bentancur, but Rabiot and Ramsey are on high wages and don't add enough to justify their price.

It will be a difficult market, we need to sell, most clubs are broke, and these are high wage players.

Rabiot is trash. The French Felipe Melo

Robespierre wrote:Pirlo is new Ferrara with just a better team

Not really. About the same https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2009%E2%80%9310_Juventus_F.C._season#Squad_information

Warrior wrote:Pirlo is just the wrong guy for the job he ain't responsible for the terrible transfers we made since 3 years. Paratici built this squad, he is gone this summer you can bet your shoes on it. Agnelli is also responsible for the club's negative spiral by approving Pirlo as a coach among other things. Those 2 seem to be the main culprits.

In theory Elkann could fire Agnelli but it won't go this far, a resignation is the likely outcome

The main people responsible for this are Agnelli, Marotta and Allegri. The last two are thankfully gone, the first one should go back to being who he was during the first half of his tenure. If he can't or won't, then he should fuck off too

Agnelli yeah. The whole JJ project is a big fail football wise. Can't care less the money made from Ronaldo marketing because last summer we were broke as fuck.

But Marotta & Allegri we will never agree. They are gone since 2 years man, they left as champions. We even won last year with the remains of their work. What is Marotta's main fault ? Extend Mandzukic and Khedira ? Well they did not play a game for us this season
Our cycle ended with Ronaldo, a decision of Agnelli not Marotta

Allegri he was not on the same page with Ronaldo and stubborn tactically in his last 2 seasons. Fair enough but i don't see the link with our current problems. As i said, there's nobody else unless we push for Inzaghi whose renewal is supposedly imminent. So Pirlo should be fired sooner the better, if we want a decent coach next season.