Political Correctness, LGBTQ, #meToo and other related topics

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Post by Blue Sun May 16, 2021 4:09 am

Freedom of speech should be expanded into the private sectors. The First Amendment should protect you regardless if you have public or private job.


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Post by Blue Sun May 16, 2021 4:12 am

Over the years I have grown to dislike the mainstream liberals, especially identity politics. When the CIA uses the same tactics it says it all.

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Post by El Gunner Sun May 16, 2021 11:09 am

i don't think "identity politics" is an agenda by "mainstream liberals" as much as is it is a relevant postcolonial discourse within culture, society and organisations
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Post by elitedam Sun May 16, 2021 12:47 pm

@Blue wrote:Freedom of speech should be expanded into the private sectors. The First Amendment should protect you regardless if you have public or private job.



The first amendment protects everyone, no matter what their job is. It sounds like you want freedom from consequences.
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Post by CBarca Sun May 16, 2021 1:48 pm

@El Gunner wrote:i don't think "identity politics" is an agenda by "mainstream liberals" as much as is it is a relevant postcolonial discourse within culture, society and organisations


Yeah "identity politics" is a massive, massive issue on the right as well. It's certainly not left-right
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Post by Blue Sun May 16, 2021 6:09 pm

@elitedam wrote:
@Blue wrote:Freedom of speech should be expanded into the private sectors. The First Amendment should protect you regardless if you have public or private job.



The first amendment protects everyone, no matter what their job is. It sounds like you want freedom from consequences.


Why should there be any consequences for mere opinions?
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Post by elitedam Mon May 17, 2021 12:01 am

Of course there should be consequences for your opinions, especially if you decide to broadcast them to the world.
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Post by Blue Mon May 17, 2021 2:26 pm

It is weird to see how people can detest freedom of speech, and want people to be punished for opinions they disagree with.
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Post by elitedam Mon May 17, 2021 3:23 pm

It's even weirder to see that people don't understand the difference between freedom of speech from freedom of consequences.

You're allowed to say what you want, but you will be judged for it.
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Post by El Gunner Mon May 17, 2021 4:14 pm

@Blue wrote:It is weird to see how people can detest freedom of speech, and want people to be punished for opinions they disagree with.

there's levels and degrees to things that are said, no? Not every opinion holds the same weight. Pls Blue, don't be silly.
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Post by BarrileteCosmico Mon May 17, 2021 4:19 pm

@Blue wrote:It is weird to see how people can detest freedom of speech, and want people to be punished for opinions they disagree with.
I don't want to see anyone punished ,but if someone expresses an opinion that would really make it impossible to work with them they should get fired (after a proper investigation).

That said , I have a hard time believing this prior example is one of them .
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Post by Blue Mon May 17, 2021 6:30 pm

@BarrileteCosmico wrote:
@Blue wrote:It is weird to see how people can detest freedom of speech, and want people to be punished for opinions they disagree with.
I don't want to see anyone punished ,but if someone expresses an opinion that would really make it impossible to work with them they should get fired (after a proper investigation).

That said , I have a hard time believing this prior example is one of them .


Say you hold a contradictory opinion on the Israel vs Palestine conflict, what if someone complain about it. Should you lose your job over it? Say your statement is even ignorant, I don’t think you should face consequences for statements that has no impact on your job.

Other issues is not everyone acts in good faith and some are hyper sensitive who literally think your political opinion means violence toward them.

Also allowing corporate elites to decide what is acceptable opinion.
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Post by BarrileteCosmico Mon May 17, 2021 7:35 pm

If you express something so ignorant and/or offensive that your coworkers cannot work with you then it does impact your ability to work.
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Post by The Demon of Carthage Mon May 17, 2021 7:52 pm

It's a very complex issue, but the idea is to freely express your opinion without coming across offensive or hateful to others.

Since you brought up the Israel vs Palestine conflict, I'm going to use it as an example because it's very touchy and topical.

I support Palestine 100% and I think what Israel is doing to them is criminal and genocidal. But I can't lump every single Israeli in the same box as their criminal government (even though I know for a fact many of them support it). So I can't say: "Fuck the Jews!" or "I hate all the Jews". But I can say "Fuck the Israeli government! I hate it!"

So I can't allow myself to be racist or discriminate against the Israelis based on their religion or race or creed. But I can criticize their actions and stand up to them.

This logic can be applied to the workplace as well in determining whether or not someone should be fired, I think. So as long as you're not being racist, sexist, anti-semitic or hateful towards anybody or anything and you're solely criticizing someone's actions or the consequences of those actions, there should be no reason to fire you.

But I can't for instance write in my Twitter "Hitler rocks!" and then not expect to get fired after. So yes, freedom of speech is sacred, but it has its limits.
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Post by Blue Mon May 17, 2021 9:25 pm

So you guys don't really believe in freedom of speech.
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Post by BarrileteCosmico Mon May 17, 2021 9:31 pm

Freedom of speech is freedom of speech from government censoring. And that's not what we are talking about . What you are arguing for is the freedom to say what you want without consequences from other private citizens,  and yes I'm against that.
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Post by El Gunner Mon May 17, 2021 10:00 pm

@Blue wrote:So you guys don't really believe in freedom of speech.

what you are advocating for here it seems... is for a life with no cause and effect, no consequences... simply impossible
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Post by Myesyats Mon May 17, 2021 10:12 pm

@BarrileteCosmico wrote:Freedom of speech is freedom of speech from government censoring.

This is correct. Very important distinction


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Post by Hapless_Hans Tue May 18, 2021 12:18 am

How does that even work? If someone calls you an idiot, you're not supposed to be offended, because of freedom of speech?

I don't understand
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Post by Blue Tue May 18, 2021 2:35 am

@El Gunner wrote:
@Blue wrote:So you guys don't really believe in freedom of speech.

what you are advocating for here it seems... is for a life with no cause and effect, no consequences... simply impossible


Don’t your consider yourself a communist? Weird to place such trust in corporate elites.
@BarrileteCosmico wrote:Freedom of speech is freedom of speech from government censoring. And that's not what we are talking about . What you are arguing for is the freedom to say what you want without consequences from other private citizens,  and yes I'm against that.


If you believe in freedom of speech, why shouldn’t the same protections be granted for a private sector job? Do you believe they should held to a higher standard? Or Corporate are intrinsically more ethical?
@Hapless_Hans wrote:How does that even work? If someone calls you an idiot, you're not supposed to be offended, because of freedom of speech?

I don't understand


I am talking about if private companies should have the ability to punish employees for their online activity or activities outside of work. I am not talking about conducts at work.

The issue is not consequences entirely. The issue is demanding conformity and the behavior is very authoritarian.

I guess it is fine to fire someone, because his online behavior made someone uncomfortable. Lol
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Post by Warrior Tue May 18, 2021 3:03 am

Depends on how the opinion is expressed. If it's an insult or hate speech then consequences must be expected.

While hate speech is easy to identify, the difference between insult and opinion is less obvious. For example i am against the recent promotion of transgenderism as normality, imo a self-inflicted burden for which society should not adapt... but i never get hostile towards trans people. There is no hate attached to that opinion. As long as i don't cross the line, there should be no definite consequences such as losing my job or ban from the forum. That others reply with insults or disagree is not a real consequence btw. To be debated or called out for ignorance is not an unfair consequence for expressing any type of opinion.

Nowadays it seems "unpopular opinion = insult" and i dislike it

Saying the women from San Francisco are weak and fake is obviously offensive for the people concerned, but no way it promotes violence or mysoginy in this context. It's cynical observations turned into a novel or so it seems. Apple have overreacted and the bosses lack tolerance.
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Post by El Gunner Tue May 18, 2021 10:06 am

@Blue wrote:Don’t your consider yourself a communist? Weird to place such trust in corporate elites.
no correlation whatsoever, and totally off-key since i didn't mention anything about corporate elites...

it's just common sense accountability and consequences
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Post by Myesyats Tue May 18, 2021 10:22 am

THe thing BC posted is quite creepy and doesnt matter if it was said/written in or outside of work, you cant be creepy and then expect to have others be comfortable around you. We dont know what the work environment in there was but if you write creepy shit or google child porn or something like that you are bound to answer for it.

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Post by McLewis Tue May 18, 2021 2:42 pm

@Blue wrote:So you guys don't really believe in freedom of speech.


Freedom of Speech, as we Americans know it, works in tandem with the Social Contract. Break that contract and society probably crumbles.

The 1st amendment protects freedom from consequences brought on by the government. However, in order to survive, which means work and make money, adherence to the Social Contract is required. Should it be that way? That's an entirely different philosophical discussion.

The reality is that if someone goes around saying whatever they want, they're going to lose their job and thus their means to survive in this modern society.
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Post by Blue Wed May 19, 2021 3:23 pm

@El Gunner wrote:
@Blue wrote:Don’t your consider yourself a communist? Weird to place such trust in corporate elites.
no correlation whatsoever, and totally off-key since i didn't mention anything about corporate elites...

it's just common sense accountability and consequences


You don’t find a inconsistency between a self described communist and a belief that private companies should set moral standard? Unless you believe that freedom of speech laws are inefficient and favor that greatly restricts it.

Btw in communism what do you do with these people that don’t meet this narrow moral standard? Since you can’t fire them. Death camps? Re-education camps?

@Myesyats wrote:THe thing BC posted is quite creepy and doesnt matter if it was said/written in or outside of work, you cant be creepy and then expect to have others be comfortable around you. We dont know what the work environment in there was but if you write creepy shit or google child porn or something like that you are bound to answer for it.


Child pornography is illegal, there is consequences by law. That is different. Even if you are creep you should keep your job that your living dependents on, and they may also have a family.

I fundamentally do not believe in a strict and fearful society. Maybe Saudi Arabia for some is more your cup of tea. They go extreme lengths not to offend. Except yours would be based on social justice instead of religion.


I honestly don’t think you can believe in freedom of speech, and hide behind “it is not government enforcement.” Liberals have a monopoly on culture, and most companies are doing their bidding. But if you lived a more conservative society like at one point in history you would have a different opinion.
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Post by Myesyats Wed May 19, 2021 5:05 pm

@Blue wrote:Child pornography is illegal, there is consequences by law. That is different. Even if you are creep you should keep your job that your living dependents on, and they may also have a family.

Child porn sure, my bad, I meant to say looking at children's photos but clothed which is creepy but not illegal

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