USA Gun Violence & Police Brutality Thread

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Post by CBarca Wed Apr 21, 2021 4:17 pm

There is a massive difference between de-escalating a situation, which is absolutely something we should be striving towards, in all cases, and in every police interaction, and walking into a knife fight where, if you hadn't have done anything, a victim was about to be stabbed in the chest.

I'm open to hearing how this could have been handled better. I agree with and, so of course, am open to hearing about how this situation needed to evolve such that calling the police doesn't result in a shooting like this. That should never be the end result and if it is, we're not going to get past what we're going through. I think McLewis that you know that very badly I would like to agree with you here.

However, I watch the video here and I can't get past this single fact: what does the police officer do? This isn't the bullshit we've seen elsewhere where the answer is to let them fuckin run and find them later! This is a situation where if the cop doesn't do anything, a girl gets stabbed.

Are we as a society OK with accepting that as our way forward? Can we agree on no outrage if he lets the girl in the video get stabbed, so long as he doesn't shoot Ms. Bryant? Is the answer to go for a taser here and in just about every other situation?

That's probably what I think should be the course of action -- as it doesn't result in a sure shooting death. I'm not sure it spares the girl in pink from getting stabbed, but perhaps she survives, and both girls are alive.

I just don't agree with saying that this situation could have been avoided if there was de-escalation. Sometimes you walk into a situation where there is an individual coming at others with a knife, and you can't de-escalate yourself out of that one.

That is NOT me defending the institution of police who are fucking awful at de-escalation, by the way.

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Post by Freeza Wed Apr 21, 2021 4:21 pm

I don’t see why you should use a gun to be judge, jury and executioner in a situation where the worst outcome is someone dying.

By using a gun to kill in a situation like that you’re only deciding who is going to suffer the worst case scenario.

Police shouldn’t be executioners against people carrying weapons.
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Post by sportsczy Wed Apr 21, 2021 4:39 pm

@Warrior wrote:This is mediocrity. Just train officers so they know how to shoot. Retire those who can't.

So 99% of private, police and military gun users should be retired because aiming for the torso or head is how everyone is trained.  You don't see a single shooting range where the targets are the arms and legs.

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Post by Freeza Wed Apr 21, 2021 5:19 pm

I’ve been to plenty shooting ranges. Those targets are usually squares and not humans.
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Post by Myesyats Wed Apr 21, 2021 6:37 pm

@McLewis wrote:When we call the police for their help, we should not expect to die. That is unacceptable. My mind cannot be changed on this.

Bro I agree guns should be drawn as an absolute last resort but you can't just run around with a knife threatening people as the police roll by. That is as unacceptable as the policeman's use of a gun. They don't know each person's backstory and have to take decisions in split seconds.

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Post by McLewis Wed Apr 21, 2021 7:53 pm

@CBarca wrote:There is a massive difference between de-escalating a situation, which is absolutely something we should be striving towards, in all cases, and in every police interaction, and walking into a knife fight where, if you hadn't have done anything, a victim was about to be stabbed in the chest.

I'm open to hearing how this could have been handled better. I agree with and, so of course, am open to hearing about how this situation needed to evolve such that calling the police doesn't result in a shooting like this. That should never be the end result and if it is, we're not going to get past what we're going through. I think McLewis that you know that very badly I would like to agree with you here.

However, I watch the video here and I can't get past this single fact: what does the police officer do? This isn't the bullshit we've seen elsewhere where the answer is to let them fuckin run and find them later! This is a situation where if the cop doesn't do anything, a girl gets stabbed.

Are we as a society OK with accepting that as our way forward? Can we agree on no outrage if he lets the girl in the video get stabbed, so long as he doesn't shoot Ms. Bryant? Is the answer to go for a taser here and in just about every other situation?

That's probably what I think should be the course of action -- as it doesn't result in a sure shooting death. I'm not sure it spares the girl in pink from getting stabbed, but perhaps she survives, and both girls are alive.

I just don't agree with saying that this situation could have been avoided if there was de-escalation. Sometimes you walk into a situation where there is an individual coming at others with a knife, and you can't de-escalate yourself out of that one.

That is NOT me defending the institution of police who are fucking awful at de-escalation, by the way.

It's like I said, medical professional and even educators have found ways to disarm violent patients and students without harm to themselves, others or the the disarmed as well. It is possible. It's hard, but possible. As long as that's the case, I can't accept what the cop did here. I would've rather him close the distance, tackle Ma'khia to get her away from not only the girl in pink than simply shoot her not once, but 4 times. Given he's likely trained in hand-to-hand combat, he would've had far better success getting the knife away from the girl in pink, but away from Ma'Khia as well.

Using his gun should've been the last resort. Not the only resort.

If he can't make decisions that atleast attempt to save ALL lives rather than the most lives, then he shouldn't be a cop. Yes, that's a high standard, but it's what should be required to serve in that capacity given the power that police officers are given by our laws.

@Freeza wrote:I don’t see why you should use a gun to be judge, jury and executioner in a situation where the worst outcome is someone dying.

By using a gun to kill in a situation like that you’re only deciding who is going to suffer the worst case scenario.

Police shouldn’t be executioners against people carrying weapons.

Agreed. Cops out here are literally acting like the judges from Judge Dredd. At least in that comic, the pretense that they were judge, jury and executioner was dropped.

@Myesyats wrote:
@McLewis wrote:When we call the police for their help, we should not expect to die. That is unacceptable. My mind cannot be changed on this.

Bro I agree guns should be drawn as an absolute last resort but you can't just run around with a knife threatening people as the police roll by. That is as unacceptable as the policeman's use of a gun. They don't know each person's backstory and have to take decisions in split seconds.

This is a result of police not living in the neighborhoods they're responsible for policing. When cops live in these neighborhoods, they form bonds with the people who live there. Those bonds come in handy in situations like this. I truly don't believe the cop would've shot Ma'Khia if he knew who she was, who were family was due to living near them and seeing them every day, as as neighbor. He would've tried far more to save her and everyone else rather than resort to killing her like he did here.

I truly don't think anyone should be allowed to join the police force unless they are willing to live in the neighborhoods they're going to be policing.
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Post by BarrileteCosmico Wed Apr 21, 2021 8:02 pm

You give guys with 6 weeks of training a firearm and bullets become the solution to every problem.

Take guns away from police, force them to call a specially trained unit if they need deadly force, as they do in Europe. They have proven they're not responsible enough to deal with that.
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Post by sportsczy Wed Apr 21, 2021 8:13 pm

@Freeza wrote:I’ve been to plenty shooting ranges. Those targets are usually squares and not humans.

Agreed. But you can ask for human targets and this is what you'll get (or something similar).

My point is that none of the human targets ever show arms and legs.
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Post by McLewis Wed Apr 21, 2021 9:42 pm

@BarrileteCosmico wrote:You give guys with 6 weeks of training a firearm and bullets become the solution to every problem.

Take guns away from police, force them to call a specially trained unit if they need deadly force, as they do in Europe. They have proven they're not responsible enough to deal with that.


Require them to have psychology degrees or at least take the classes on a regular basis as well. They need to be able to understand how the mind works in order to be more effective when working. It can certainly help defuse situations, especially with folks who are mentally unstable. Too many of them are just washed up high school jocks or washed out/jaded military vets who are itching to just kick ass. Too many have watched too many movies and TV shows. They don't approach the job with the correct mindset.
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Post by sportsczy Wed Apr 21, 2021 10:14 pm

Until you take guns off the street, you can't take guns away from the police.  End of.

In terms of training, absolutely yes it has to evolve.  But not the way some of you suggest.  Start with anti-bias training and revamped use-of-force policies.  All these people are doing is following their training and protocol.  

Change those and see the impact to:
-  First and foremost, crime statistics.  That's what the police is there for let's not forget.  Crime rates CANNOT go up as a result.
-  Community confidence.  If the people trust the police, then it's getting better as long as crime figures are improving.

If the police aren't following these new protocols and training, then you can start judging character and changing HR practices accordingly.  But you can't judge systematic character issues before, regardless of what nonsense you hear in the media.

I harp on crime rates because in NYC, they've implemented half-ass populist police reforms... crime rates have spiked and mostly violent crimes. It's taking the path to becoming the crime shithole it was in the 80s.
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Post by Myesyats Thu Apr 22, 2021 3:39 am

@McLewis wrote:This is a result of police not living in the neighborhoods they're responsible for policing. When cops live in these neighborhoods, they form bonds with the people who live there. Those bonds come in handy in situations like this. I truly don't believe the cop would've shot Ma'Khia if he knew who she was, who were family was due to living near them and seeing them every day, as as neighbor. He would've tried far more to save her and everyone else rather than resort to killing her like he did here.

I truly don't think anyone should be allowed to join the police force unless they are willing to live in the neighborhoods they're going to be policing.

That already kinda happens though. Police are assigned to certain districts so that they're familiar with the area and can allocate resources more efficiently. You cant expect them to know everyone's backstory though.

I agree with CB. Police should be police and an armed unit should be a separate thing.

I maintain that the larger problem is gun laws in general in America. The mentality of the people is wrong and they shouldnt be allowed to buy guns casually in a store. More guns equals more gun violence.

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Post by Babun Thu Apr 22, 2021 5:11 am

@Myesyats wrote:
@McLewis wrote:This is a result of police not living in the neighborhoods they're responsible for policing. When cops live in these neighborhoods, they form bonds with the people who live there. Those bonds come in handy in situations like this. I truly don't believe the cop would've shot Ma'Khia if he knew who she was, who were family was due to living near them and seeing them every day, as as neighbor. He would've tried far more to save her and everyone else rather than resort to killing her like he did here.

I truly don't think anyone should be allowed to join the police force unless they are willing to live in the neighborhoods they're going to be policing.

That already kinda happens though. Police are assigned to certain districts so that they're familiar with the area and can allocate resources more efficiently. You cant expect them to know everyone's backstory though.

I agree with CB. Police should be police and an armed unit should be a separate thing.

I maintain that the larger problem is gun laws in general in America. The mentality of the people is wrong and they shouldnt be allowed to buy guns casually in a store. More guns equals more gun violence.

We've got something similar to Poland. We've got Polizeikommissariat which are located near the hotspots. They know most of the families, people with criminal histories and other circumstances within their district. They're responsible for the everyday routines, your usual cop, also trained to deescalate and visit schools, other places for crime prevention. When there's concrete evidence of shooting weapons or danger of being stabbed they call for SEK (Spezialeinsatzkommando with machine pistols and snipers for kidnapping). They're always on the ready like firefighters. Violent crimes or gravy financial crimes are taken care of by the Landeskriminalamt (comparable to CSI for Hamburg for example) and if the crime goes through more than one federal state Bundeskriminalamt takes over (our version of FBI). All of them can call SEK any time they think it's appropriate.
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Post by Harmonica Fri Nov 19, 2021 5:00 pm

Kyle Rittenhouse cleared from all charges in Kenosha.  Pretty much the only thing I admire in US today, its justice system. Thumbs up
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Post by FennecFox7 Fri Nov 19, 2021 7:34 pm

@Harmonica wrote:Kyle Rittenhouse cleared from all charges in Kenosha.  Pretty much the only thing I admire in US today, its justice system. Thumbs up


Be careful with saying that here.. although I agree with you 100%

Our justice system is kinda flawed but the right call was made here
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Post by McLewis Fri Nov 19, 2021 10:42 pm

I have a very specific thought about this that I will post in the Racism thread shortly.

Legally speaking, I don't have much of an issue with the verdict. The prosecution had a thin case to begin with and absolutely fumbled the bag here. Gage Grosskreutz was an awful witness and challenging Rittenhouse's 5th amendment right to not incriminate himself was unreal incompetence. Just so many mistakes.
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Post by El Gunner Sat Nov 20, 2021 12:15 am

Everybody want justice
But we live in a society
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Post by Warrior Sat Nov 20, 2021 5:42 am

On my side of the border Kyle Rittenhouse would be jailed for life. But the situation would not happen, we don't have a bs second amendment that allows to carry assault rifles on the street.

Given the circumstances justice might have been served, but on very low moral standards, the banalization of gun violence is not much to celebrate about
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Post by Myesyats Sat Nov 20, 2021 6:03 am

Given the evidence the verdict is probably correct but the fact that this guy traveled across state lines, borrowed an assault rifle from a friend and went to the protest armed to the teeth in the first place shows how fucked up America is Laughing, how ridiculously this entire affair came to be and how easily these deaths could have been avoided

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Post by El Gunner Sat Nov 20, 2021 6:51 am

^^yea that's my only pickle about the situation. There's clearly some form of intention (whatever it may be) on his part with doing all that.
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Post by Warrior Sat Nov 20, 2021 6:56 am

This theory is being mocked a lot and associated to boomers

But i believe violent video games like COD and GTA are indirectly responsible for a lot of mass shootings
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Post by El Gunner Sat Nov 20, 2021 7:15 am

perhaps, image priming does have an impact on memory and the brain, after all

but it still comes down to your own wilful decision-making, and education level and moral standards
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Post by CBarca Sat Nov 20, 2021 7:50 am

@Warrior wrote:This theory is being mocked a lot and associated to boomers

But i believe violent video games like COD and GTA are indirectly responsible for a lot of mass shootings


I think that's just lazy thinking tbh. It ignores the many millions of places in our society where we also glorify violence and attributes the wrongdoing to one thing. Especially when that one thing is a form of media we play to enjoy and do silly things with.

You're much more likely to have these fucked up ideas coming from your parents, siblings, and friends, the people who have real influence over you. Or, with respect to media, more serious media like the news or your music, or YouTube or something.
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Post by Thimmy Sat Nov 20, 2021 8:32 am

I'm definitely going to agree with CB on what's more likely to influence crime and violence. I don't doubt that some people are affected by violent video games, but I firmly believe that those people are just as likely to be influenced by the countless other things that glorify that kind of behavior.

Aside from mingling with the wrong crowds or individuals, involuntary, social isolation or the feeling of being left out by society seems to be the number one cause of crime and violence in all corners of the world. Most of the mass shooters I've heard of, have shared that experience.
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Post by Myesyats Sat Nov 20, 2021 8:38 am

@Warrior wrote:This theory is being mocked a lot and associated to boomers

But i believe violent video games like COD and GTA are indirectly responsible for a lot of mass shootings

I dont think it does and definitely not to a larger extent than other media such as music or movies.

Thimmy is right. its all about your circle of friends or being left out by society for various reasons.

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Post by Warrior Sat Nov 20, 2021 9:03 am

I'm not talking about being exposed to violence in GTA or COD which of course it's not particularly worse than TV or movies.

In video games you are in control, you pull the trigger. It's not the same thing at all. Kyle Rittenhouse 17 years old went to a riot with an AR-15 thinking he was gonna live the Modern Warfare experience and boy was he right.
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Post by Myesyats Sat Nov 20, 2021 9:14 am

IDK man studies do not prove that claim:
Video games do not lead to violence or aggression, according to a reanalysis of data gathered from more than 21,000 young people around the world.
“Thus, current research is unable to support the hypothesis that violent video games have a meaningful long-term predictive impact on youth aggression,” the report said.

https://www.theguardian.com/games/2020/jul/22/playing-video-games-doesnt-lead-to-violent-behaviour-study-shows


This kyle guy took part in a police cadet program, maybe thats it.

Id say he was more influenced by right wing nutjob propaganda more than anything

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