USA Gun Violence & Police Brutality Thread

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Post by Babun Wed Apr 14, 2021 11:09 am

With everything said my two cents: the US justice system is too harsh towards minor delicts. Instead of social labour or other incentives, people go straight to prison for petty crimes. The motivation to run away is there even though it's stupid.

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Post by Myesyats Wed Apr 14, 2021 2:08 pm

Yeah it doesnt happen everywhere. Here the police never use their guns. It's the absolute last resort and US police are definitely VERY trigger-happy.


US standards are in close proximity to African standards which is ridiculous:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_killings_by_law_enforcement_officers_by_country
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Post by The Franchise Wed Apr 14, 2021 4:15 pm

@sportsczy wrote:

The difference in Europe (I grew up in France) was that the police didn't have to worry about common criminals having guns... knives, sure.  But not guns.  If guns are prevalent in society, then the police need guns too.  You have to get rid of one so that you don't need it for the other.

Gun control is the problem here... not only the police.  And in this case, it was an accident that happened because the person resisted and tried to run away.  The action caused a reaction and a mistake was made.  The fact that the police are required to have guns in the US due to circumstance makes lethal mistakes far more likely.

I agree generally with this. Perhaps I didnt understand your overall point. But I just cant agree that this kind of incident would happen anywhere and that the problem in this situation is more that someone might be running away or resisting, and not the fact cops are firing guns at what seems be any opportunity.
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Post by Harmonica Wed Apr 14, 2021 4:19 pm

@Babun wrote:With everything said my two cents: the US justice system is too harsh towards minor delicts. Instead of social labour or other incentives, people go straight to prison for petty crimes. The motivation to run away is there even though it's stupid.
We've the exact opposite system. Longest served jail sentence in finnish history is 22 years. Altough I think killers get far too short sentences, economic crimes get absurdly long. Still this has to be better system than US, using the money needed to run prisons and police, on social and health systems.

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Post by Harmonica Wed Apr 14, 2021 5:00 pm

Just noticed Derek Chauvin trial is live on youtube. Only in Murica. Laughing

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Post by Myesyats Wed Apr 14, 2021 10:29 pm

Damn sounds like it's a dream to be a murderer in Finland
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Post by Babun Thu Apr 15, 2021 11:07 am

@Harmonica wrote:
@Babun wrote:With everything said my two cents: the US justice system is too harsh towards minor delicts. Instead of social labour or other incentives, people go straight to prison for petty crimes. The motivation to run away is there even though it's stupid.
We've the exact opposite system. Longest served jail sentence in finnish history is 22 years. Altough I think killers get far too short sentences, economic crimes get absurdly long. Still this has to be better system than US, using the money needed to run prisons and police, on social and health systems.


Same here, economic crimes are punished harder than rape for example. If you think in as bigger picture missing taxes affect more public activity (schools, pensions etc.) than a rapist so they do more damage in total even though rape or a beating  might look more punishable on the surface.
@Myesyats wrote:Damn sounds like it's a dream to be a murderer in Finland

There's little motivation to be a murderer in Finland. For that reason, most super hero films from the marvel universe are kinda silly to me. Their villains had a really bad childhood or a violent experience due to:
a) poverty
b) high crime rate involving guns or stabbing
The "superhero" takes care of the symptoms, good prevails over bad Laughing How about preventing those situations in the first place? That would be super hero like.
I like scandinavian thrillers the most, for they don't soleily concentrate on violence or inexpicable behaviour, they have got truly mean, evil antagonists with motives beyond the reasons shown in most hollywood films. "Bordertown" and "Dead Wind" are my favourites.
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Post by El Gunner Thu Apr 15, 2021 12:33 pm

@Harmonica wrote:Just noticed Derek Chauvin trial is live on youtube. Only in Murica. Laughing


one year on smh... the illusion of justice in a fake society

in the good old nice days it was an eye for an eye
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Post by Myesyats Thu Apr 15, 2021 1:54 pm

@El Gunner wrote:
@Harmonica wrote:Just noticed Derek Chauvin trial is live on youtube. Only in Murica. Laughing


one year on smh... the illusion of justice in a fake society

in the good old nice days it was an eye for an eye

Wait, you're complaining that mans has a right to a fair trial? hmm
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Post by El Gunner Thu Apr 15, 2021 2:08 pm

yea.. if i was leader of the world George Floyd's family would simply decide what to do with him
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Post by Myesyats Thu Apr 15, 2021 2:19 pm

I always knew you were a fascist. Free world my ass.
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Post by El Gunner Thu Apr 15, 2021 2:25 pm

lol there's nothing fascist about "an eye for an eye" it's the simplest and most effective form of justice
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Post by Myesyats Thu Apr 15, 2021 3:43 pm

A communist approach would be to create a prison system in the style of the Finnish one. What you suggest is completely not in line with your supposed belief system.
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Post by Harmonica Thu Apr 15, 2021 4:55 pm

Problem with eye for an eye, and death sentence for the same reason, is the grey area when conviction isn't that solid. You can always release a prisoner later if she later was discovered innocent and compensate it with money. But you can't bring dead one back to life.
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Post by El Gunner Thu Apr 15, 2021 7:50 pm

@Myesyats wrote:A communist approach would be to create a prison system in the style of the Finnish one. What you suggest is completely not in line with your supposed belief system.

again, you're the misguided one in this argument because you continue to believe that "global communism" is this one structured idea/system that you have in your mind when you couldn't be any further from the truth
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Post by McLewis Fri Apr 16, 2021 4:49 pm



Not gonna post the video here as it's....extremely hard to watch. It is easily available by Google search. There is debate over whether the boy dropped a gun shortly before he died, but I truly don't think that matters. He wasn't given enough time to comply with any of the cop's orders before he was summarily shot and killed. The cop then had the audacity to ask him if he was ok. Surreal stuff.

And that's not all that happened:



And this is on the 14th anniversary of the Virginia Tech massacre where a gunman killed 32 students at the university before killing himself.

Why haven't police been able to prevent these massacres from happening? Because they're too busy rewarding murderers like this piece of shit:



One donation comment said: ‘God bless. Thank you for your courage. Keep your head up. You’ve done nothing wrong.’

I think this sums up my thoughts on the last few days:

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Post by Warrior Fri Apr 16, 2021 5:43 pm

In all due respect USA seems rotten to the bone

I remember some years ago a guy sitting in his car was told by police to give driver's license, as he reach for his wallet, they shot and killed him. As supposedly he was reaching for a gun....

That was some years ago i saw the video. I cannot recall the name but he was a black man so the leash is even shorter. Police give contradictory instructions, they put pressure on people and stress them even more, as if they force a mistake to have reasonable motives to shoot.
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Post by sportsczy Fri Apr 16, 2021 10:28 pm

You have a gun in your hand and running away from the police, you're not going to be given time...  as soon as police recognize that it's a gun while chasing you, you're dead.  If you don't want to die, stop running, put the gun on the ground BEFORE the police asks you and put your hands behind your head.  You CANNOT have your hands on a weapon.  If your hand is on a weapon and the police feels that you can pull the trigger on him during a chase, he has the right to shoot you.  That's actually the law.

Police did nothing wrong there.  Again, guns being on the street is the issue... and a kid taking the gun from the other dude and running.

Re the accidental (and it's clearly accidental) shooting of the person in a traffic stop... where the person actually tried to run from the police once again... was a shame.  Involuntary manslaughter for sure.

Three big lessons:
-  don't illegally possess a gun
-  don't run from the police
-  don't run from the police while holding a gun

I will add that the use of body cameras is sporadic from what I remember in Europe (2 years ago last I checked).  In France specifically, they were only used for very specific situations like checkpoints.  Absolutely were not used on a rolling basis.   So given that the data isn't equal, I'm not sure if the US is better or worse than other places.
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Post by sportsczy Fri Apr 16, 2021 10:32 pm

And take a look at this stat so that you understand a bit why police in the US tend to be especially aggressive in the past 2 years:

https://www.statista.com/statistics/584748/law-enforcement-officer-fatalities-in-the-us/

Also, take a look at the violent crime rate in the US by year from 1990 to 2019 before you make a judgment on very biased media reporting about the effectiveness of law enforcement in the US:

https://www.statista.com/statistics/191219/reported-violent-crime-rate-in-the-usa-since-1990/
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Post by sportsczy Fri Apr 16, 2021 11:14 pm

And btw, I 150% agree that the US (not just the police alone) needs to demilitarize in a big way.  I'm hoping all these gun legislation and executive orders have teeth.

But I also think it's grossly unfair to demonize law enforcement when statistics have shown that they have done well in terms of crime prevention pre-pandemic.  They have a few bad apples...  and there is racism without a doubt.  What I don't like is how they deal with these bad apples and racists.  They need to be punished severely so you don't allow for more of them.  The police unions are too strong and it makes it impossible for proper (and i emphasize this word; it has to be within the law) punishment.

But first and foremost, we need to deal with gun control. The rest becomes a lot more rational after that.
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Post by McLewis Sun Apr 18, 2021 1:10 am

How do you think the guy that gave Adam Toledo that illegal gun got it in the first place, Sports?

Do you know what state is responsible for the majority of illegal guns finding their way into Chicago? Indiana. A state that has weak gun laws....that also happens to have conservative Republicans controlling all levels of government there.

You want to talk about gun control? It needs to happen in Indiana, whose capital just saw a mass murder.

But sure...let's excuse the cop for killing a kid because he "feared for his life".

Miss me with that bullshit.
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Post by VivaStPauli Sun Apr 18, 2021 1:07 pm

Sports, how can you be so blind?
You've written yourself that the police unions are protecting the "bad apples" - how can you not see that this is proof of the entire system being rotten?
If there's entire organizations set up to protect criminal cops, how is the system not at fault? How can this be a few bad apples? I just don't get the argument.
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Post by sportsczy Sun Apr 18, 2021 9:26 pm

Because the police system itself is not rotten as there is no one police system.  The US is a HUGE country and the police are run locally...  as in each city/town.  There are thousands of systems and they're all independent.  That's necessary and the right way to go imo.

The police unions definitely have a purpose.  You cannot send police to jail like a normal citizen because of the consequences facing them when they are sent to jail...  the bar has to be higher.  There's the benefit of the doubt for a private citizen and then there should be a much higher threshold for the police.  HOWEVER, it cannot be so high that it's allowing for abuse, which is what has happened in some municipalities (mostly larger cities).  I blame the unions for that (also in the larger cities).

Just like the police itself.... the unions are also local btw.  80% of them have no affiliation with larger organized labor groups.  

I don't buy it because I know plenty of police of various cultures and genders.  The issues are local and should be handled in the context of the local environment.  For example, Newark NJ, which is a very rough city, has had no incidents and no social unrest during the whole thing.  It is poor and predominantly African American.  Why were there no problems?  Because the police department there is part of the community and there's mutual trust...  they have implemented anti-bias training and revamped use-of-force policies.  Hence there was no reason for people to be upset.  Newark is actually getting better.

Police training depends on each local budget too btw and so that varies a lot, which is another problem.  If more police departments followed Newark NJ's lead and trained their police force properly...  you wouldn't see a lot of these issues.  At the core of it all are leadership and training.

The larger issue is guns...  because you're never going to take guns away from the police (nor should you) until you remove guns from the streets.  Gun reform is where it's at.  That needs to happen.


Last edited by sportsczy on Sun Apr 18, 2021 10:43 pm; edited 5 times in total
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Post by sportsczy Sun Apr 18, 2021 9:30 pm

@sportsczy wrote:And take a look at this stat so that you understand a bit why police in the US tend to be especially aggressive in the past 2 years:

https://www.statista.com/statistics/584748/law-enforcement-officer-fatalities-in-the-us/

Also, take a look at the violent crime rate in the US by year from 1990 to 2019 before you make a judgment on very biased media reporting about the effectiveness of law enforcement in the US:

https://www.statista.com/statistics/191219/reported-violent-crime-rate-in-the-usa-since-1990/

And tell me how you can refute this data please...
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Post by El Gunner Sun Apr 18, 2021 11:25 pm

@VivaStPauli wrote:Sports, how can you be so blind?
You've written yourself that the police unions are protecting the "bad apples" - how can you not see that this is proof of the entire system being rotten?
If there's entire organizations set up to protect criminal cops, how is the system not at fault? How can this be a few bad apples? I just don't get the argument.

you can't reason with someone who argues for himself and against himself at the same time, unfortunately
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Post by El Gunner Sun Apr 18, 2021 11:29 pm

@sportsczy wrote:
@sportsczy wrote:And take a look at this stat so that you understand a bit why police in the US tend to be especially aggressive in the past 2 years:

https://www.statista.com/statistics/584748/law-enforcement-officer-fatalities-in-the-us/

Also, take a look at the violent crime rate in the US by year from 1990 to 2019 before you make a judgment on very biased media reporting about the effectiveness of law enforcement in the US:

https://www.statista.com/statistics/191219/reported-violent-crime-rate-in-the-usa-since-1990/

And tell me how you can refute this data please...

where are the rates for murders and harassment by cops and petty convictions?
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