Re: The Coronavirus Thread - Part 3

[zigra]

Their "sense of community" is mostly based on the fact that individual people dont matter, which is just wrong from the get-go. Everyone has intrinsic value and the individual is more important than the collective.

When you take a stance where the collective is more important than the individual, naturally the individual loses value. And that's dangerous in every possible way.

Then it becomes "morally justifiable" to do with the individual whatever you desire for the good of the collective. A good response to the pandemic is not reason to throw away our core liberal values because in the long run, it may not be pretty.

Be honest. How much do you know about the society of Taiwan? Do you really feel you know them well enough to make a statement about their valuation of the individual? What is that based on?

[zigra]

Drove with my mask on today, windows rolled down. Someone in a passing truck yelled at me to take my mask off

Which is partially why I wear it even when driving. It's probably petty, but for every person who just "owned a lib", I love the idea that they're bothered enough to mention the mask. I wasn't really paying attention so I couldn't tell anything back, unfortunately.

What an insane issue. It absolutely boggles the mind. America is a bastardization of freedom.

Are you allowed to wear a mask while driving? I don't drive myself so I didn't really care too much but I remember people arguing about it in Germany because your face has to be recognizable while driving so I think some masks are ok while some may not be ok and combining them with sunglasses seems the be a big no

[Jay29]

So there you have it, I also think the masquarade outside is a joke. The vast amount of infections happens when someone is in an enclosed room long enough without proper protection gear (FFP3 or N95 mask with swimming goggles which almost noone has). The best solution is to not meet anyone in enclosed spaces or minimize the time in public enclosed spaces. In that sense, a mask is controproductive because it gives a false sense of security but any mask is good enough to reduce the exposure of others by the infected. So in total, masks in enclosed spaces: yes. Do they protect you? No, they protect others from oneself.

Ideally, we'd stay away from enclosed spaces and mass gatherings until a vaccine arrives, but we know that's not feasible for economies all over the world, so we have to work with what we have.

It takes a simple change in the message to get mask wearing on board, too. People were convinced to socially distance to protect others, so why not the same for masks? What is it about putting a piece of cloth over your mouth that gets people so anxious or angry?

Their "sense of community" is mostly based on the fact that individual people dont matter, which is just wrong from the get-go. Everyone has intrinsic value and the individual is more important than the collective.

When you take a stance where the collective is more important than the individual, naturally the individual loses value. And that's dangerous in every possible way.

Then it becomes "morally justifiable" to do with the individual whatever you desire for the good of the collective. A good response to the pandemic is not reason to throw away our core liberal values because in the long run, it may not be pretty.

Wearing a mask to protect someone wouldn't be throwing away your core liberal values, though. And is this specific instance, protecting others also protects me. To protect my individual self and ensure my continued existence on this planet, I have to stop thinking about me all of the time and start thinking about the group. If the group becomes infected my chances of being infected go up. I feel that some societies understand this while others, like where I live for example, don't.

Put another way, prevention > cure. It's better to stop a problem from becoming a problem than to try and solve it afterwards.

[M99]

Asian countries went through SARS. In some countries people wore masks during flu season before COVID 19 became a thing. The idea that wearing masks is a symbol of oppression or throwing away liberal values is hysterical.

One thing that really needs to be imported in Western countries though is bidet showers over toilet papers ffs

[Myesyats]

Their "sense of community" is mostly based on the fact that individual people dont matter, which is just wrong from the get-go. Everyone has intrinsic value and the individual is more important than the collective.

When you take a stance where the collective is more important than the individual, naturally the individual loses value. And that's dangerous in every possible way.

Then it becomes "morally justifiable" to do with the individual whatever you desire for the good of the collective. A good response to the pandemic is not reason to throw away our core liberal values because in the long run, it may not be pretty.

Be honest. How much do you know about the society of Taiwan? Do you really feel you know them well enough to make a statement about their valuation of the individual? What is that based on?

Hmm I know enough to know that the "successful" Asian response to the virus is thorough citizen control and invigilation "for the greater good". No thanks, I rather have a bad response and keep my freedom and sovereignty. Phone apps, chips, facial recognition, tracking devices, this is all BS. China now has cameras that can idenitify every single person in a crowd..... So are you willing to give up your freedom entirely for the greater good? For a quicker virus respone? Fuck that.

I'm not talking about masks btw, lol. I was in favor of the masks even before countries made it mandatory.

[Myesyats]

Sure their sense of community has surely helped by working in harmony but that also comes with other stuff that is public knowledge: South Korea's Tracking Of COVID-19 Patients Raises Privacy Concerns

One usually comes with the other and that's undeniable whether you like or dislike it.

Seoul’s Radical Experiment in Digital Contact Tracing

Freedom or unlimited surveillance. You choose.

[zigra]

Their "sense of community" is mostly based on the fact that individual people dont matter, which is just wrong from the get-go. Everyone has intrinsic value and the individual is more important than the collective.

When you take a stance where the collective is more important than the individual, naturally the individual loses value. And that's dangerous in every possible way.

Then it becomes "morally justifiable" to do with the individual whatever you desire for the good of the collective. A good response to the pandemic is not reason to throw away our core liberal values because in the long run, it may not be pretty.

Be honest. How much do you know about the society of Taiwan? Do you really feel you know them well enough to make a statement about their valuation of the individual? What is that based on?

Hmm I know enough to know that the "successful" Asian response to the virus is thorough citizen control and invigilation "for the greater good". No thanks, I rather have a bad response and keep my freedom and sovereignty. Phone apps, chips, facial recognition, tracking devices, this is all BS. China now has cameras that can idenitify every single person in a crowd..... So are you willing to give up your freedom entirely for the greater good? For a quicker virus respone? Fuck that.

I'm not talking about masks btw, lol. I was in favor of the masks even before countries made it mandatory.

I didn't ask you anything about Asia as a whole. My question was about Taiwan and no other country. Why do you bring up China?
The original post you responded to didn't mention anything besides Taiwan and Hongkong either.

[Myesyats]

Be honest. How much do you know about the society of Taiwan? Do you really feel you know them well enough to make a statement about their valuation of the individual? What is that based on?

Hmm I know enough to know that the "successful" Asian response to the virus is thorough citizen control and invigilation "for the greater good". No thanks, I rather have a bad response and keep my freedom and sovereignty. Phone apps, chips, facial recognition, tracking devices, this is all BS. China now has cameras that can idenitify every single person in a crowd..... So are you willing to give up your freedom entirely for the greater good? For a quicker virus respone? Fuck that.

I'm not talking about masks btw, lol. I was in favor of the masks even before countries made it mandatory.

I didn't ask you anything about Asia as a whole. My question was about Taiwan and no other country. Why do you bring up China?
The original post you responded to didn't mention anything besides Taiwan and Hongkong either.

What's the difference? Taiwan deals with it in a similar way as South Korea. Surveillance and tracking apps. God only knows what China is doing.

Citizen control, data tracking and invigilation is just their daily life because it serves the greater good.

Many people have concerns that these measures will become more prominent in the West post-covid. Orwellian society come to life.

[zigra]

How is it similar to South Korea? Did Taiwan check credit card payments to track people? Surveillance cameras? Mandatory apps?

Taiwan did use technology (phone signal) to make sure people under mandatory quarantine didn't break the quarantine. Ok. What good is mandatory quarantine if no one cares if you go out? Does that alone make them a surveillance state? "Orwellian society come to life"? What about western countries who would check on people under mandatory quarantine in person?

[CBarca]

Drove with my mask on today, windows rolled down. Someone in a passing truck yelled at me to take my mask off

Which is partially why I wear it even when driving. It's probably petty, but for every person who just "owned a lib", I love the idea that they're bothered enough to mention the mask. I wasn't really paying attention so I couldn't tell anything back, unfortunately.

What an insane issue. It absolutely boggles the mind. America is a bastardization of freedom.

Are you allowed to wear a mask while driving? I don't drive myself so I didn't really care too much but I remember people arguing about it in Germany because your face has to be recognizable while driving so I think some masks are ok while some may not be ok and combining them with sunglasses seems the be a big no

I am unaware of any law that prohibits what you can wear while driving. When I drive I tend to wear a mask and sunglasses, both. Unless it's cloudy of course.

[Myesyats]

In my country, police check on people in quarantine by physically driving their car there and ringing the bell. They're not prisoners so they shouldn't wear bracelets on their ankles or be tracked by any signals. Perhaps the Taiwan methods are not as bad as South Korean ones but they follow the same theme. That's what I meant by "no difference", obviously they didn't use exactly, 1:1, the same measures. But in their nature, they are similar.

"In addition to check-in calls, the government worked with telecommunications companies to track quarantined residents' locations using their phone numbers."..... That's nothing, right? It's just that the government knows where are you are at all times. No biggie. Then one thing leads to another.... It's like people are blind to all of this. You think this will go away once Covid is defeated? No, it will stay, and later get worse.

[zigra]

Drove with my mask on today, windows rolled down. Someone in a passing truck yelled at me to take my mask off

Which is partially why I wear it even when driving. It's probably petty, but for every person who just "owned a lib", I love the idea that they're bothered enough to mention the mask. I wasn't really paying attention so I couldn't tell anything back, unfortunately.

What an insane issue. It absolutely boggles the mind. America is a bastardization of freedom.

Are you allowed to wear a mask while driving? I don't drive myself so I didn't really care too much but I remember people arguing about it in Germany because your face has to be recognizable while driving so I think some masks are ok while some may not be ok and combining them with sunglasses seems the be a big no

I am unaware of any law that prohibits what you can wear while driving. When I drive I tend to wear a mask and sunglasses, both. Unless it's cloudy of course.

It's probably different in the US or your state.

In my country, police check on people in quarantine by physically driving their car there and ringing the bell. They're not prisoners so they shouldn't wear bracelets on their ankles or be tracked by any signals. Perhaps the Taiwan methods are not as bad as South Korean ones but they follow the same theme. That's what I meant by "no difference", obviously they didn't use exactly, 1:1, the same measures. But in their nature, they are similar.

"In addition to check-in calls, the government worked with telecommunications companies to track quarantined residents' locations using their phone numbers."..... That's nothing, right? It's just that the government knows where are you are at all times. No biggie. Then one thing leads to another.... It's like people are blind to all of this. You think this will go away once Covid is defeated? No, it will stay, and later get worse.

Yes they check the phone signal of people under mandatory quarantine.. just like I said. Now while people are not prisoners being quarantined does mean you are not allowed to leave the place you are in. Checking the phone signal of people while they are quarantined may not be what I'd propose myself but I think it's far away from the "Orwellian society come to life" you make it out to be considering it would be illegal to track people who are not being quarantined.

Now one thing leading to another - of course that's always a possibility which in my opinion makes it kind of a faux argument. You could argue against pretty much anything by saying that it could lead to something worse.

Personally I think you've already made your mind up that all asian countries view society essentially the same and don't care about differences between them which seems quite ironic considering what you're arguing against (or for).

[Myesyats]

You're just nitpicking. I already restated my previous claim and of course I don't think that Taiwan is as bad as China in that matter. They've worked to build a great democratic society. But some of their Covid measures are influenced by the Chinese authoritarian model. Does that satisfy you, sir?

And it's not far from a Orwellian society, in which your every action is surveilled through your cell phone and the CCTV. In 2020, this a reality in China and to some degree in South Korea. Taiwan dipped their toes in this reality with their Covid measures.  

Of course it's easy to scoff at that because it sounds silly. But you know it's true. And people have been brainwashed to the point where they think it's a good thing.

[Babun]

Covid-20 anyone?

DON'T CLICK IF YOU HAVE WEAK NERVES OR JUST ATE!:

[BarrileteCosmico]

Apparently it's real, wtf

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lychee_and_Dog_Meat_Festival

[El Gunner]

so they indulge in a lychee after to get rid of the horrible dog taste i presume

[Babun]

The tradition is 1000s of years old. The problem is they boil them alive...
Pigs and rats fall into the same category, omnivores have the greatest biological magnification:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biomagnification

They have the highest chance to make people sick after eating them. Bear meat is one of the most dangerous among them. Bats are dangerous due to their evolutionary coexistence with shitloads of very dangerous viruses. Sheep or goat meat is one the safest sources.

[El Gunner]

well... that's humanity for you

and then you all get disgusted when i say we should all just burn our cities and ourselves to ashes

[CBarca]

Evidence that they kill the dogs inhumanely?

I guess I don't see the big deal. What's the difference in eating dogs vs eating pork if your culture has normalized eating something like a dog?

I probably wouldn't like to eat dog because of the culture I grew up in, but I can't see a reason it's necessarily wrong, unless you think eating all meat is wrong (and as long as the killing is humane)

Open to hear other thoughts though

[Babun]

Evidence that they kill the dogs inhumanely?

I guess I don't see the big deal. What's the difference in eating dogs vs eating pork if your culture has normalized eating something like a dog?

I probably wouldn't like to eat dog because of the culture I grew up in, but I can't see a reason it's necessarily wrong, unless you think eating all meat is wrong (and as long as the killing is humane)

Open to hear other thoughts though

ATTENTION, GORE IS AN UNDERSTATMENT for the following video. Don't watch if you don't want to be traumatised, not for the weak nerves:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1RsIb2XEzEU&has_verified=1

[The Demon of Carthage]

I couldn't even bare watching the pain these poor dogs were going through. babun is right, if you really don't have a strong stomach, don't watch the video.

[Myesyats]

If they are killed humanely, then I guess it's just a matter of culture.

But I would find it weird to attend a dog eating festival and then go back to my wiener dog at home and pat him on the head.

If everyone had a pet pig in the backyard, I would find eating pork weird, too.

[Babun]

They even have live cooking contests where the judges give scores depending on the moving parts:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=prwUIBqOvSs&t=31s

[BarrileteCosmico]

https://rt.live/

happy to live in the state that is managing this the best, even we still made mistakes along the way

the entire south looks and west coast like 2nd wave confirmed

[rincon]

https://rt.live/

happy to live in the state that is managing this the best, even we still made mistakes along the way

the entire south looks and west coast like 2nd wave confirmed

I dont even think "2nd wave confirmed". For a lot of these places its still the first wave. People there just decided it was over, and got in the NY/europe timeline of corona. That the first wave passed in Italy doesnt mean it passed in the US south, or anywhere else. People there just seem to have convinced themselves that it was no longer a problem, and these are the consequences of it

[BarrileteCosmico]

look at places like Florida, Arizona or Oregon. They were able to get the R0 to below 1 for a few months and now it's back to levels not seen since March. Hence the "2nd wave". But some I agree still seem on the first wave.

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