General Games Discussion

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Post by M99 Thu May 21, 2020 12:58 am

Jesus, just because a game does not really end after the first end credits the game creator is an egotistical maniac Laughing

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Post by Firenze Thu May 21, 2020 1:42 am

Mule just doubling down extra hard because otherwise the implication is that he did something wrong by not playing through the game properly, can't be having that. In 8 years never once seen this man say he was wrong about anything, which actually makes him seem like an egotistical maniac :coffee:

I think it's fine to say playing through a short game again isn't your cup of tea, but as has been said there are quite a few story cutscenes and new exposition that make it worthwhile. It's not entirely a copy paste.

Disagree with Taro having no respect for the player too. Appreciate the trophy shop. :coffee:

Knew people would be burnt out after playing through the game 2 times and then a third and final act.

Stayed true to his design vision throughout. And a lot of people liked it. PSN says that 87% of the people that finished the first playthrough then went on to finish the second and like 85% of them finished the third.
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Post by Doc Thu May 21, 2020 5:52 am

@Great Leader Sprucenuce wrote:He's every bit as bad as Molyneux was lol, people just don't like it when you criticize Japanese developers.

No one, and I mean no one is as bad as Molyneux. Taro's games are a bit niche, actually, it is very fucking niche and can be easily considered pretentious.

Buuuuuuut "egotistical maniac" isn't the phrase I would describe him.
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Post by Great Leader Sprucenuce Thu May 21, 2020 1:49 pm

@M99 wrote:Jesus, just because a game does not really end after the first end credits the game creator is an egotistical maniac Laughing


Yes a developer who demands you to play his game more than once is a egotistical maniac.

It's the very definition of an ego trip, I'd argue Kojima does things like it as well but it's nowhere near as blatant.

Pretty sure the reaction would be very different if an outspoken American developer did the same.
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Post by Great Leader Sprucenuce Thu May 21, 2020 1:58 pm

@Firenze wrote:Mule just doubling down extra hard because otherwise the implication is that he did something wrong by not playing through the game properly, can't be having that. In 8 years never once seen this man say he was wrong about anything, which actually makes him seem like an egotistical maniac :coffee:

I think it's fine to say playing through a short game again isn't your cup of tea, but as has been said there are quite a few story cutscenes and new exposition that make it worthwhile. It's not entirely a copy paste.

Disagree with Taro having no respect for the player too. Appreciate the trophy shop. :coffee:

Knew people would be burnt out after playing through the game 2 times and then a third and final act.

Stayed true to his design vision throughout. And a lot of people liked it. PSN says that 87% of the people that finished the first playthrough then went on to finish the second and like 85% of them finished the third.


Eh? If admitted i was wrong multiple times, you and others here just choose to ignore them to fit your agendas. See threads involving Pardew, Alan.

Also i enjoyed what i played, but after being bored shitless on Route B i wasn't going to put myself through it further.

It's such pretentious bullshit to force people to do that, but as i said people love to defend bullshit from Japanese developers they wouldn't accept otherwise.

The examples are everywhere, from Nintendo, Kojima, Taro, From Software etc.

Besides what you're saying is factually incorrect as it's impossible for me to know I'm wrong because I'll never actually play through it to find out and I'm totally content with that situation.
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Post by Arquitecto Thu May 21, 2020 2:06 pm

Mole is basically right.

Japanese developers have a nigh invincible status and things get rather heated when they are criticised.

Nintendo is a huge example whom as a whole are largely overrated.


Kojima is polar but he is rightfully rated whilst Miyamoto gets far too much protection.

Circle jerk needs to stop despite me being a Japanophile myself.
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Post by Great Leader Sprucenuce Thu May 21, 2020 2:14 pm

Yeah Laughing

They're treated like Sacred Cows, irony is I'm playing Persona 5 Royal atm which has jumped to the #2 game of the generation to me.

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Post by rincon Thu May 21, 2020 2:16 pm

No one is even praising him for it here, they are just saying that it doesn't make him a manic though.

How is making a game more repayable a bad thing? You play it once, you like or not. If you like it enough, then you have more game to play. Seems fine, not something to get so defensive about.

In DQXI you beat the game, credits roll. Then you (would seem to) get the traditional postgame possibilities of a JRPG, but in reality there is a huge "epilogue" with more story to play if you want.

I understand not liking it or wanting to bother but it doesn't scream anything like "egotistical maniac" to me hmm

Going to have to play this to find out.

If there is something that screams "maniac" to me about Taro's games is one of the endings to drakengard that consisted of (alien?) giant babies raining from the sky in an evangelion-style world reset, while you fight the big (mother?) alien over modern day Tokyo with fighter jets shooting everything. Or something like that, can't remember exactly what the fuck was supposed to mean Laughing but I read that that is the ending the based Nier on.
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Post by Great Leader Sprucenuce Thu May 21, 2020 2:34 pm

Making a game replayable and forcing replayability are two entirely different things.
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Post by M99 Thu May 21, 2020 4:10 pm

I actually criticised Kojima a lot on MGS5. Just disagreed the game overall being horrid but actually pretty good despite its flaws. My problem was mainly with the narrative, second chapter and the open world.

Kojima is criticised a lot in the internet though...and Nomura gets a lot of shit for Kingdom Hearts so Japanese devs are not really invincible.

Saying something is total bullshit and work of an egoistical maniac is whiny and immature as f. That is despite so many gamers doing and enjoying said thing. But I guess all those people are brainwashed worshippers of the sacred cow Rolling Eyes

FromSoft is BS also Laughing Why is that, the checkpoint system or the difficulty of his games?
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Post by Thimmy Thu May 21, 2020 6:12 pm

Not just Nomura, but Hajime Tabata was criticized a shit ton for the relative failure of Final Fantasy 15, although Nomura laid the groundwork and Tabata went out of his way to appease fans with free post- release content, as well as fan requested features. I almost feel a bit sorry for him Razz He ended up quitting Square Enix altogether, claiming lack of motivation as the reason.
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Post by Great Leader Sprucenuce Thu May 21, 2020 6:19 pm

@M99 wrote:I actually criticised Kojima a lot on MGS5. Just disagreed the game overall being horrid but actually pretty good despite its flaws. My problem was mainly with the narrative, second chapter and the open world.

Kojima is criticised a lot in the internet though...and Nomura gets a lot of shit for Kingdom Hearts so Japanese devs are not really invincible.

Saying something is total bullshit and work of an egoistical maniac is whiny and immature as f. That is despite so many gamers doing and enjoying said thing. But I guess all those people are brainwashed worshippers of the sacred cow Rolling Eyes

FromSoft is BS also Laughing Why is that, the checkpoint system or the difficulty of his games?


Checkpoint system, i will never back down on this lol.

I hate it, Fallen Order had the same system and it was the worst part of the game by far.

I've never seen it implemented well.
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Post by Great Leader Sprucenuce Thu May 21, 2020 6:21 pm

BTW i think MGS5 is a good game, my criticism around it is the design of the open world and how missions are structured around it.

Both of which are extremely uninspired and boring takes on open world game design.
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Post by Firenze Thu May 21, 2020 6:39 pm

MGS5 is basically just a tech demo to me

still salty after everything I knew about MGS as a series (this was my first MGS) was expecting some epic story but it's half baked AF with nice gameplay in a barren open world, probably the least interesting open world ever
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Post by Great Leader Sprucenuce Thu May 21, 2020 6:58 pm

I didn't get far enough to be able to criticize the story lol.

I stopped playing because i was so uninspired by the mission and open world design that i gave up on it.
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Post by RealGunner Thu May 21, 2020 7:22 pm

@Great Leader Sprucenuce wrote:
@M99 wrote:I actually criticised Kojima a lot on MGS5. Just disagreed the game overall being horrid but actually pretty good despite its flaws. My problem was mainly with the narrative, second chapter and the open world.

Kojima is criticised a lot in the internet though...and Nomura gets a lot of shit for Kingdom Hearts so Japanese devs are not really invincible.

Saying something is total bullshit and work of an egoistical maniac is whiny and immature as f. That is despite so many gamers doing and enjoying said thing. But I guess all those people are brainwashed worshippers of the sacred cow Rolling Eyes

FromSoft is BS also Laughing Why is that, the checkpoint system or the difficulty of his games?


Checkpoint system, i will never back down on this lol.

I hate it, Fallen Order had the same system and it was the worst part of the game by far.

I've never seen it implemented well.


But there is a checkpoint system?

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Post by RealGunner Thu May 21, 2020 7:26 pm

Also nearly every game developer wants you to replay the game. Multiple times. This is why trophies and multiple endings exists.

Even TW3 had to be played multiple times to get different endings.
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Post by Great Leader Sprucenuce Thu May 21, 2020 7:55 pm

@RealGunner wrote:Also nearly every game developer wants you to replay the game. Multiple times. This is why trophies and multiple endings exists.

Even TW3 had to be played multiple times to get different endings.


They don't force you to do it to see the whole story. That's the point.

Replaying to see different endings and replaying to finish the game as intended aren't the same things in the slightest. You can see everything in the story for Witcher 3 in one playthrough.

With Automata that's impossible.
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Post by LeVersacci Thu May 21, 2020 10:28 pm

Whats wrong with the checkpoint system?
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Post by Arquitecto Thu May 21, 2020 10:33 pm

Huge shame to hear on MGSV given I am going to be playing it soon beginning with GZ (first game after TW3 a year after) but can we really be critical of it given it is even more unfinished than beyond what most know of it?

Konami basically interfered so heavily over Kojima they were breathing down his back and for such an ambitious design its worse unfinished compared to if it had been a more conventional linear design.


Open world games are at their best when given time to detail it.

Kojima apparently had far far less than what he wanted.

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Post by M99 Thu May 21, 2020 10:35 pm

The part in Automata where its the exact same as the first playthrough is like 4-5 hours max, I remember blitzing through it one sitting. Was pretty easy also because the levels carried over so the characters were OP.

@Firenze wrote:MGS5 is basically just a tech demo to me

still salty after everything I knew about MGS as a series (this was my first MGS) was expecting some epic story but it's half baked AF with nice gameplay in a barren open world, probably the least interesting open world ever


Agree with all of the criticism.

FFS should have played the older ones on PS3 m8. MGS1 and 3 are masterpieces. 2 and 4 have stuff which you could label as Kojima BS. The whole Raiden switcheroo in 2 and the long cutscenes in 4 made Kojima get a lot of flak.
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Post by Arquitecto Thu May 21, 2020 10:38 pm

4 was an absolute masterpiece in my eyes too.


Graphically it remains for me the best on the console along with its sheer originality.


Biggest problem with 4 was that you can barely remember any gameplay. It was just so short and whilst the cutscenes were great, it should not have dominated what were gameplay bouts that simply were not long enough.

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Post by M99 Thu May 21, 2020 10:48 pm

Shoutout to Peace Walker too, best ever PSP game and the first (and only) since MGS1 to not have a convoluted story.

Kojima tried to make 5 an open world next gen console version of Peace Walker. But sadly he ran out of budget, couldn't meet deadlines and so got fired by Konami.

It was such a difficult time because [Kojima] was going through a lot last year,” Keighley says in the interview. “The fact that he finished that game under those circumstances is just amazing. He was locked in a separate room on a different floor than his development team for the final six months of development. He couldn’t even talk to them – he had to talk through someone else. That’s how that game was finished.

That shit is crazy.
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Post by Arquitecto Thu May 21, 2020 10:53 pm

M99 just finished what I heard on the development saga of the game. By far his most ambitious project in the series yet the now Pachenko obsessed company in Konami made it development hell for the man.


Peace Walker was refreshing and at times I forgot it was a PSP game. Very well made piece of work.
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Post by Lord Spencer Thu May 21, 2020 11:02 pm

Gamer's mentality 101:

A lot of people are fans of game company X which I don't quite like at that level. Ergo, the company is overrated.

An extremely popular game is something that I didn't like very much, ergo fans of the game are biased and sheeple.

A popular game has some weird design choices and doesn't follow a classical rule of development is not sitting well with me. Ergo, the dev is an egotistical maniac.

Game everyone calls the GOOJFSOJFsOFJs is only okay for me. Ergo, the game is shit.

Why the consistent need to have everyone agree with your tastes in gaming and the constant need to have a "true rating: for every game and game company. Bloody grow-up.

For the record, Nintendo is not "overrated" nor is any other company for that matter. Every game is rated just fine by the one that plays it. (Others who did not and will probably never play a game should shut-up about it). What does "overrated" even mean, it is not a fucking argument, and it can neither be proven nor denied.

Also for the record, the conditions to get the different Witcher 3 endings are the worst I have ever seen in a videogame, where the fate of the entire story depends on five inconsequential choices, ignoring the mountain of choices and history that has been established before. Now, here is an argument about exactly why I dislike the way the Witcher 3 ending is arbitrarily chosen.

Someone enjoying a game does not devalue your lack of enjoyment from it, and the opposite is true.

If Mole doesn't enjoy playing a game several times to explore all the layerings of the story, then that's his "taste". I don't see how that make's the developer and egotistical maniac (like he is the first one to use this narrative trick, Chrono Trigger had things hidden in multiple playthrough 20 years before it).

Sorry for the rant, here is my last Sega Saturn report.

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Post by Lord Spencer Thu May 21, 2020 11:03 pm


Finally, we are down to the supposedly top 10 Sega Saturn games. At least, this is the top 10 according to the Retro Sanctuary list I have been using all this time. Since I already played enough Saturn games to make my own top 10 list, I cannot say that I agree with this selection, but that's going to be the subject of my own top 10 list.


To be fair to Retro Sanctuary's selection, the games here are important from a historical perspective regarding the console as a whole. There are two major Arcade ports of famous Sega games (Virtua Fighter 2 and Sega Rally), two games in the mythical Panzer Dragoon series, and the obligatory Japan only 2D games (a fighting game and a Shmup). Then there is NiGHTS Into Dreams, the biggest selling game on the console. Yet, the inclusion of three 3D games, all of which have significantly superior ports in other consoles, significantly devalues this list. Especially when you consider the fact that pushes Shining Force III from the top 10.


With that being said, here is a quick report on each game on this list.


Please enjoy:-


10- Tomb Raider (1996):



  • Genre: Action Adventure

  • Publisher: Eidos Interactive; Developer: Core Design.


General Games Discussion - Page 15 RgTLRVz


It is no secret that Tomb Raider is one of the most important early 3D games. It introduced many elements that were then subsequently copied in other 3D games and is generally considered as a historically important game. It is also no secret that its sequels on the PS1 (which were not released on the Saturn) massively improved over the original in every way.


With that, we are left with only the first game. Yet, due to releasing earlier on the Saturn, the game had a weaker performance compared to the PS1 despite supposedly designed with port parity in mind.


These are two major reasons why I think an inferior port of a game that was clearly bested by its own sequels in the same generation shouldn't be considered as a top 10 Sega Saturn game.


9- PowerSlave (1996):



  • Genre: FPS

  • Publisher: Playmates Interactive; Developer: Lobotomy Software.


General Games Discussion - Page 15 EKa7knU


By all accounts, PowerSlave is a technical marvel on the Sega Saturn. It's a first-person game that works really well on the console. It's also a first-person game that worked better when ported to the PC and the PS1.


Again, I am left confused about why a non-exclusive game with superior ports elsewhere is considered among the top 10 Saturn games. This, of course, betrays the relative strength of the Saturn's library, but there are several games I would put ahead of it.


Also, the game plays terribly now, so there is that.


8- Radiant Silvergun (1998): Japan-Only



  • Genre: Shmup.

  • Publisher: Entertainment Software Publishing; Developer: Treasure.


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Despite being published only in Japan, Radiant Silvergun had such a stellar reputation that it was widely ported West and even covered in official review outlets. This reputation is why I ended up reviewing the game, making it my only import review.


Of course, this meant that I didn't get much from the game's story, which was more involved than your usual Shump. However, this game is not legendary in the genre due to its story, but due to its excellent gameplay. Giving you access to all weapons at once, the game is more concerned with the player mastering these weapons than begging for drops. This is needed against the increasingly difficult and intense bosses, which are a hallmark of Treasure's gaming design.


As a genre outsider, I think that the accessibility features are what differentiates this game from others. It has several difficulty options, and the weapon upgrades as you play, making the game easier and beatable even if you exhaust all your continues. While I am sure that my appreciation for the game is to a lesser degree than genre fans, I actually can identify how it is a top tier Shmup, and a top game for the Saturn as a result.


7- Resident Evil (1997):



  • Genre: Survival Horror.

  • Publisher: Capcom; Developer: Capcom.


General Games Discussion - Page 15 PzX1Llj


Everything I said about Tomb Raider is equally valid here. After all, the first Resident Evil game itself was superseded by its remake on the GameCube.


However, when talking about the Saturn port of the game, it is actually a bit better than the PS1 version (and it released a year later). It came with slightly touched-up graphics, but also with some extra modes and monsters as well.


Regardless, the game was subsequently improved-upon in every way with Resident Evil 2 which was not released for the console.


6- Street Fighter Alpha 3 (1999): Japan Only



  • Genre: Fighting.

  • Publisher: Capcom; Developer: Capcom.


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Street Fighter Alpha 3 is arguably the best fighting game released on the Saturn. Surely, it is the game with the best graphics and animations, as well as being one of the best ports of a widely admired fighting game. Unfortunately and rather predictably, the game was never ported west (by 1999, the Saturn was already dead in the states).


Still, I don't think the late date had anything to do with it. In fact, none of the other 2D fighting games covered in the Retro Sanctuary list were ported West despite being the best console versions available. As such, the console didn't fulfill its potential as the go-to fighting game console, even if that title would have gone to the Neo Geo in the end.


5- NiGHTS into Dream (1996):



  • Genre: Action.

  • Publisher: Sega; Developer: Sega.


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In an alternate universe where Sega made sense as a company, NiGHTS would have been released alongside a Sonic game, complimenting its sales and propelling the Saturn in its early years. However, that wasn't the case, and NiGHTS was left shouldering the burden of selling Sega's console in the absences of its most iconic mascot.


Both critically and sales-wise, the game succeeded, becoming the highest-selling game on the system and one of its best-reviewed games. Personally, I didn't care much for the game and I think it failed at convincing Sonic fans to get into the Saturn.


I think the game had some unique ideas executed well, but that it ultimately was lacking in content and wasn't equal to Sonic in neither style nor substance.


4- Panzer Dragoon II: Zwei (1996):



  • Genre: Rail Shooter.

  • Publisher: Sega; Developer: Sega (Team Andromeda).


General Games Discussion - Page 15 4CoHWty


The Sega Saturn's answer to Nintendo's Starfox 64; Panzer Dragoon II is the second Rail Shooter game in its franchise and a much-improved sequel at that. Taking place in a mysterious world infested with biotechnological monsters, the game has a haunting visual atmosphere that is still effective today despite its aged graphics. Thankfully, the game's visuals are accompanied by an excellent unique soundtrack.


Gameplay-wise, the game is more involved than your usual arcade Rail Shooters, tasking the player with keeping track of four quadrants as well as giving the player more movement options. As such, the game doesn't suffer for lacking a Rail gun and is fun to play with any regular controller.


Just like the first game was recently remade for modern consoles, this sequel also has a planned remake and I am excited about it.


3- Sega Rally Championship (1995):



  • Genre: Racing.

  • Publisher: Sega; Developer: Sega.


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Here is a game that announced the Saturn to the world, it is an almost arcade-perfect port of the Sega Rally arcade sensation. It looks great (and it didn't age badly at all) and controls better. There is a satisfying feeling to the driving that envokes the dirt and struggle of Rally racing. Unfortunately, I think Sega took the wrong lessons regarding its success.


Sega thought the success of Sega Rally Championship was purely due to it being a very faithful arcade port, not the fact that it was an early game showcasing the system's power, but also one that should promise more substantive sequels in the future. After all, the game has only two cars and three tracks. No matter how good the racing is, that's a very limited content for a full-priced game.


Yet, Sega continued to port their arcade games with minimal alterations and limited content.


2- Virtua Fighter 2 (1995):



  • Genre: Fighting.

  • Publisher: Sega; Developer: Sega.


General Games Discussion - Page 15 T20oQze


The Virtua Fighter and Tekken franchises are the pillars of 3D fighters, with former created by Sega for its Arcades and consoles and the latter finding its home on Arcades and the PS1. Initially, the advantage in both graphics and gameplay was with Virtua Fighter, as can be seen with Virtua Fighter 2.


By nearly all metrics, Virtua Fighter 2 looked and played better than anything Tekken related, even on the Saturn where the Arcade version was amazingly ported. Comparing the two franchises, Virtua Fighter focuses more on fighting game fundamentals than the flashier and combo heavy Tekken series, and that worked well before the 3D technology advanced enough.


However, one thing the Tekken series did from the onset was to have a story for all of their colorful characters, expanding the appeal of the fighting genre beyond the competitive players. This continued with every sequel until the release of Tekken 3 simply surpassed anything Sega made.


Simply put, while Virtua Fighter 2 and Sega were content with having a strong fighting game for genre fans, one without even a training mode, Tekken continued to expand the genre and have more character development and single-player content. I think it is telling that supposedly the best fighting game on the Saturn is so stuck in the past while the best fighting game on the PS1 was making a new standard for the future.


1- Panzer Dragoon Saga (1998):



  • Genre: RPG.

  • Publisher: Sega; Developer: Sega (Team Andromeda).


General Games Discussion - Page 15 Y6b5iU1


With their first two Panzer Dragoon games, Team Andromeda crafted a unique and mysterious world that unfortunately could not be satisfactorily expanded upon in Rail Shooter games. Yet, the need to expand upon that world was obviously so great that the next game in the series became an RPG.


As such, one of the most mysterious and critically lauded RPGs was made.


Panzer Dragoon Saga is a hugely ambitious game despite being short for an RPG and contained in its story and location. It is probably one of the first games that aimed to be a "cinematic" experience. The story is revealed in so many CGI and in-engine cutscenes that the game occupied four CDs, All dialogue was voiced, including simple conversations with NPCs. And, if you look closely at each scene, you see how the team managed to convey nuance and emotion through actual and realistic "acting".


Within that ambitious experiment, there was a well-crafted world with interesting lore and characters. Also, there was an amazing turn-based battle system based completely on the rider and his dragon, and in that way, it was a perfect tribute to the first two games. Even though I may prefer Shining Force III over Panzer Dragoon Saga, there is no question that this is the Saturn's best game. From a historical perspective, it outdoes any game released at that time in terms of production, and it plays great even now.


This is exactly the kind of game Sega should have focused on if they wanted to compete in the console space. Something that couldn't be emulated in the Arcade floor, but something that unraveled its mysteries in your home, amazing you wth what video games can offer beyond chasing a high score.


*********************************


This report is a consolidated review of the top 100 list by Retro Sanctuary. It features the reviews I made for the list but also has a brief paragraph about each game on the list that I didn't review. For games without an official review, the opinions I express are purely based on some little playing time and general research about the game and its reception at the time.


Lord Spencer
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